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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> Takebacks discussion
        
(Message started by: MrBrain on Dec 21^st, 2003, 9:46pm)

Title: Takebacks discussion
Post by MrBrain on Dec 21^st, 2003, 9:46pm

I am of the opinion that if we would like Arimaa to eventually become a serious game played by serious people, that takebacks should always be limited to unrated games only. I feel that in a serious game (which we can equate to a rated game), one should make sure that he/she has the move that they want before hitting send.

I myself have never liked takebacks in any game. When one's opponent asks for a takeback, I feel the person asked is automatically placed in a no-win situation. If they refuse the takeback, they may be viewed as a mean or unsportsmanlike opponent, and if they accept, they cannot take advantage of a situation they rightly should have been able to take advantage of, plus they must deal with the added distraction of going back to a previous position, thus disturbing one's concentration.

Likewise, I feel the person who receives a takeback is also cheated, since if they go on to win the game, they cannot know whether they would have won had the takeback not been accepted. Yes, it is a win, but would the win have happened without the takeback?

Again, I am of the firm opinion that takebacks should not be allowed in rated games. (Unrated games are a different matter, since the results of such games do not go toward establishing players' ratings.) Opinions please:

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by 99of9 on Dec 22^nd, 2003, 5:15am

I also think this is an important discussion to have.

tournament:
I was disappointed to see takebacks requested in the tournament, for many of the reasons that Brian has outlined. And in a sense I was even more disappointed that people felt they needed to do the gentlemanly thing and give the takeback. Surely in something this serious, with actual stakes riding on it, a blunder is a blunder. Kasparov's blunder in game 3 against X3dFritz cost him tens of thousands of dollars, but there's no way he would ask for a takeback. Nor can you argue that a takeback is OK as long as the next person hasn't moved (note that very few takeback requests are made after the move is replied). When my opponent blunders to the extent that they expose a piece, I usually see this within a second of their move, it's just that I don't play for another minute, because I am checking out other options. Kasparov certainly realised his mistake before Fritz replied. Please no takebacks in the finals!!! Just play really carefully boys.

rated games:
However I personally don't see rated games as important enough to make this prohibition. In the case of a normal rated game, where nothing's ultimately at stake, I'd prefer just to have the best game possible. So if my opponent blunders, I nearly always allow the takeback, I've even occasionally suggested that he should take back. That way most of my games become theoretically interesting, which I think is good. So in rated games, I would suggest that people continue to ask for takebacks, and their opponents should judge as they prefer.

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by 99of9 on Dec 22^nd, 2003, 5:22am

This was my view before the tournament started, however unfortunately no one took up the debate at the time. Were you all happy with this statement? Do you all violently disagree?

Quote:

Can I check one thing about the rules for the championship:

Takebacks: I presume since these are not friendlies, that takeback requests are discouraged? Someone receiving such a request should surely feel no obligation to accept it. However if perchance your opponent wants one, are you allowed to give it (presumeably if you think it's in your advantage for him/her to take it back ... say because of the clock or something).

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by MrBrain on Dec 22^nd, 2003, 8:03am

I actually had read that before the tournament, but I really didn't believe that anyone would actually ask for a takeback during one of these games.

As far as rated games discussion goes, if the purpose is just to have the best played game possible, and not to have a pure test of skill (without takeouts), then one should play an unrated game. If the game is rated, it counts towards statistics and the player of the month title, so it should be treated like a real game. That's not to say that players can't be "friendly" to each other. Just that if it's rated, it should automatically be treated like a serious game.

On a bit of a side note, one thing that might be good is to have an adjournment feature. If you're playing a long time control, but the game is going really long and one player has to go, but it's a good game, an adjournment would make a lot of sense. I don't see this in the same light as a takeback, though, since you're not changing the game, only postponing the finish.

Title: Re: Takebacks discussionPlayers are suggested not
Post by omar on Dec 23^rd, 2003, 11:00pm

I remember going through a tough decsion while deciding to alllow takebacks in rated games. I remember finially deciding that I should at least allow the feature and let the players decide. Even if the players did not discuss it prior to the start of the game I assumed they would follow the precidence set by the first takeback request. But it could still be a problem if a person gives a takeback, but when they request one, the opponent does not give it.

In the future I think I will explicitly mention that for tournament games:

Players are suggested not to request or give takebacks. However,
doing so will not disqualify a game. A player receivng a takeback
request should not feel obligated to give a takeback and should only give a takeback if it would be benificial to do so.

Omar

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by fotland on Dec 23^rd, 2003, 11:11pm

For myself, I don't like takebacks, but I've played lots of tournament chess and go, and no one would ever think of allowing a takeback in any over-the-board tournament, or even in club play. I will never ask for a takeback, and I will never grant one, or take one if my opponent offers.

But that's just for me. I have no objection to the rules allowing others to do takebacks if it makes the game more enjoyable for both people.

I was suprised to see takebacks in a world championship game with money at stake though.

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by 99of9 on Dec 24^th, 2003, 3:55am

One possibility is for the first takeback to lose the rated game formally, but allow the players to play on "just to see what would have happened". This would allow for the good games that I like to play.

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by MrBrain on Dec 24^th, 2003, 8:23am

Perhaps if there was the ability to set up a position to play as an unrated game, then the players could finish the original rated game without a takeback, followed by setting up the critical position in an unrated game.

So that's two new features I've suggested already in this topic. 1. adjournment, and 2. position set-up capability for unrated games.

But again, I reiterate my feeling that if players are taking back moves, then it's analysis or study, and not a real game. If players want to take back moves, they should do it in an unrated game. If #2 is implemented, this may help alleviate the feeling that one needs to take back a move in the first place.

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 30^th, 2003, 1:48pm

It's happened twice now. I'm watching a game and the takeback window pops up. I can't x it away. When I say yes, it acts like it took my response instead of the player's. I hope it's not really doing this.

The most recent time was today's (12/30/03) game between Omar and the champ. It acted like I had to approve Belbo's takeback. I almost said no as I am usually opposed to the idea, but I defer to the champion ;D. I wonder what these guys saw.

Ned

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by omar on Jan 4^th, 2004, 12:29pm

I asked Aamir what he thought about takebacks and he seems to agree with Brian. So on the issue of not allowing takebacks in rateded games. We Brian, David and Aamir for;
Omar neutral; and Toby against. Is this right?

If so, I'll change this in the near future.

Omar

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by MrBrain on Jan 4^th, 2004, 12:40pm

Yes, that is correct for me at least. I think that will be a big improvement for the game of Arimaa as a whole. People can still play with takebacks allowed, but that decision should be made before the game starts, and then it can be played as unrated.

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by 99of9 on Jan 4^th, 2004, 2:47pm

on 01/04/04 at 12:29:54, omar wrote:

I agree you should have a class of games that are No-Takeback. These should definitely be used in Tournament games. And if people are generally in favour of making these apply to rated games too, then I'm happy to go with that. Naveed and I will just have to play a few more unrated games when we play each other.

So yes, go for it.

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by omar on Jan 20^th, 2004, 8:55pm

I just changed the gameserver so that if it is a rated game, it throws away the takeback requests and does not pass them on to the opponent.

Omar

Title: Re: Takebacks discussion
Post by MrBrain on Jan 21^st, 2004, 7:29am

Thanks Omar. I think this is definitely a positive move for the game of Arimaa.