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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> Little Puzzle
        
(Message started by: jdb on Aug 24th, 2005, 10:10pm)
Title: Little Puzzle
Post by jdb on Aug 24th, 2005, 10:10pm
Gold to play and win

1w Rd1 Rh1 Ca3 Rd3 Cd5 Ea6 Rc7
1b cf3 rg3 mh3 rc5 ce5 hc6 ee7 ra8 rb8 rc8 re8 rf8

Use this link to view:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/planGame.cgi
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by 99of9 on Aug 24th, 2005, 11:01pm
This one would have been hard for a static goal search to find!
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by Janzert on Aug 24th, 2005, 11:04pm
Rot13:
Pq5a ep5r up6k Ep7r Eq7a

Janzert
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by PMertens on Aug 24th, 2005, 11:58pm
Agreed ... static goal search would be in trouble here :-)

Nice encryption ...
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by Janzert on Aug 25th, 2005, 7:35am
Yes, I'm sure the puzzle would be rated at easy and is targeted more at us newb players. As well apparently as a sort of "anti-bot" example.

It did take me about 3-5 minutes to solve it. With my experience level being 20 some actual games of Arimaa spread out over a couple of years.

Janzert
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 25th, 2005, 8:19am
I liked it.  Goal search would need to identify the goal path, recognize that there are two obstacles, and determine if there is a two-step move that addresses both.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 25th, 2005, 8:53am
This position looks more like something taken from a real game than something composed.  JDB, is the soure of the position a live game?
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by jdb on Aug 25th, 2005, 9:55am
The position came up in testing the goal detection. I cleaned it up a bit to make it look a little more natural.

Little Puzzle 2:

What is the maximum distance a piece can be from the goal square and still be involved in a four step goal?  ???
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 25th, 2005, 1:06pm
5?  This is an opposing piece freezing a rabbit that is 4 spaces away and otherwise has a clear run.

But I get the feeling I'm misunderstanding the question.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by omar on Aug 25th, 2005, 6:06pm
It should be 7.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by omar on Aug 25th, 2005, 6:12pm
1w Ra7 Ra5 Ra3 Ca1
1b eb7 mb5 hb3 rb8

The gold cat is 7 spaces from the goal and still involved with the four step goal sequence.

Is this what you were looking for?
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by PMertens on Aug 25th, 2005, 6:37pm
cool :-)
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by 99of9 on Aug 25th, 2005, 7:30pm
So the speed of information flow is about double the speed of material transport.

If you've discovered stuff like this in testing, your goal search sounds like it will be almost infallible.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by jdb on Aug 26th, 2005, 8:31am
1w Rd7 Rd5 Rd3 Cd1 Dc1
1b ee7 me5 he3 re8 he1

Depending on the definition of involved, the Dog is 8 steps away.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by jdb on Sep 2nd, 2005, 3:01pm
Here is one I couldn't figure out:

1w Rd1 Rh1 Rg2 Mg3 Rd4 Rc5 Md5 Db6 Rc6 He6 Rd7 Dc8
1b ee5 mb5 dh5 dd6 ca7 hb7 rc7 re7 rg7 ra8 rb8 re8 rf8 hg8 rh8

Gold to Play
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by Arimanator on Sep 2nd, 2005, 3:15pm
Rd4e Md5s dd6s Rd7n Goal!

Believe it or not but I saw it almost immediately
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 2nd, 2005, 4:13pm
Yes, I believe it.  I looked at all the wrong things first, but still found the solution in about 30 seconds.  Easier than the last one.  However, this is the kind of thing I might miss during a game.  I think the bashers' immobilazation experience is a great advantage here.  Good players, and eventually good bots, should consider setting up this kind of misdirection.  Anybody doing this already?
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 2nd, 2005, 6:28pm

on 09/02/05 at 15:01:09, jdb wrote:
Here is one I couldn't figure out


Do you mean you missed it in actual play, Jeff?  That's the sort of thing I miss all the time in a game situation, but when it is given that Gold can move and win, I think differently about it.  It's like when I'm playing Bomb and putting on pressure, and suddenly Bomb takes only a few seconds to move.  Then I know I have a forced win and I look for it.  If Bomb uses the full time, in contrast, I conclude that I don't have a forced goal, so I don't bother to look for one, and I move on general principles instead.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by clauchau on Sep 3rd, 2005, 5:21am
Wow, I didn't figure this one out after 4 minutes. I doubted it was a one-move mate again. It's like I cannot see the color of blocking rabbits.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by 99of9 on Sep 3rd, 2005, 10:25am

on 09/02/05 at 18:28:06, Fritzlein wrote:
It's like when I'm playing Bomb and putting on pressure, and suddenly Bomb takes only a few seconds to move.  Then I know I have a forced win and I look for it.  If Bomb uses the full time, in contrast, I conclude that I don't have a forced goal, so I don't bother to look for one, and I move on general principles instead.

I think this is a big problem with the way bots use their time. If they see a goal, they should definitely wait a random time to ensure they don't give too much away.
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 3rd, 2005, 7:33pm

on 09/03/05 at 10:25:27, 99of9 wrote:
I think this is a big problem with the way bots use their time. If they see a goal, they should definitely wait a random time to ensure they don't give too much away.


I thought Gnobot was programmed to do this, but just now Gnobot2005CC saw a forced goal and moved in two seconds.  Is that a feature for Gnobot only and not for the CC version?
Title: Re: Little Puzzle
Post by 99of9 on Sep 3rd, 2005, 11:13pm
No, gnobot doesn't have that feature either - I'm just saying it would be nice


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