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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> hello, problems, questions
        
(Message started by: medarch on Dec 1st, 2005, 1:17am)
Title: hello, problems, questions
Post by medarch on Dec 1st, 2005, 1:17am
First let me say hello, everyone.  I discovered this game a couple of weeks ago, and it's really fascinating.  I look forward to being a part of this community, whenever I get a chance.  It looks like I have a lot of catching up to do on this forum, though.

I've been playing against bots only so far, but I'll start taking on fellow humans when I feel ready.

Also, I'm a programmer, so naturally I hope to build a bot pretty soon and take up the Challenge.  I look forward to discussing that with the other bot-makers.

Now, I've had a few problems playing the game--I guess they're related to the Flash Player, but I'm not sure.  I have the latest Flash Player installed (on my Windows XP machine here), yet my problems persist:

1. Game number 29603, I was playing against bot_bomb and was not allowed to make what I thought was a legal move on turn 14w.  I tried to play Hf7w df8s He7e df7s df6x, but only the first two steps were allowed.  You can see in the game what I ended up doing instead.

2. Game number 22013, my opponent's leftmost horse was invisible (not drawn).  I was confused, but after it moved its invisible horse, I opened up the game in another window (from the main game room) and sure enough, there was the horse.

3. Same game, my opponent's move never showed up on my screen.  It appeared to me that his clock had run out, but by then of course, my clock had run out and I had lost!  It only happened once during that game, but in a previous game it happened several times.  I had to open up new windows to get my opponent's move and play from there, closing the old window each time.

Has anyone else had any of these problems, and is there anything I can do about them?  I'm afraid to play any more (especially short games) before they're resolved.

Also, how do the time controls work?  Are they just random, sequential, or is there any way to choose a certain time-per-move and so forth?

And... what time zone is YLT?

See you guys around!
Thanks,
Jeremy (medarch)
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by 99of9 on Dec 1st, 2005, 6:41am

on 12/01/05 at 01:17:14, medarch wrote:
First let me say hello, everyone.  I discovered this game a couple of weeks ago, and it's really fascinating.  I look forward to being a part of this community, whenever I get a chance.  It looks like I have a lot of catching up to do on this forum, though.

Hi, welcome along.  I think you'll find the game more and more fascinating as you continue playing it.  Yes, we do tend to talk a lot on the forum (because most of us are a bit too addicted to arimaa).  Don't feel you need to catch up on everything before you talk.  Just ask, talk, share your ideas, and we might point you to helpful resources if we've discussed similar topics before.


Quote:
I've been playing against bots only so far, but I'll start taking on fellow humans when I feel ready.

Good plan.  Some of us humans play quite brutally ;-).  But once you feel ready, definitely invite someone - even if you take a few losses, they'll probably help explain what you did wrong, and you'll learn much quicker from them.


Quote:
1. Game number 29603....

I think you must've got the number wrong.  We haven't got up to that number yet!


Quote:
2. Game number 22013, my opponent's leftmost horse was invisible (not drawn).  I was confused, but after it moved its invisible horse, I opened up the game in another window (from the main game room) and sure enough, there was the horse.

This sometimes happens on slow internet connections.  The solution is just what you did - reopen the game.  Once the horse is there, it will never disappear :-).


Quote:
3. Same game, my opponent's move never showed up on my screen.  It appeared to me that his clock had run out, but by then of course, my clock had run out and I had lost!  It only happened once during that game, but in a previous game it happened several times.  I had to open up new windows to get my opponent's move and play from there, closing the old window each time.

It sounds like this is related to problem number 2... but this is definitely very strange.  I haven't heard of this one before.


Quote:
Also, how do the time controls work?  Are they just random, sequential, or is there any way to choose a certain time-per-move and so forth?

When you play a bot, you just have to go with the timecontrol the bot is set to.  Different bots have different controls.  When you play humans, you can choose from a whole range of controls.


Quote:
And... what time zone is YLT?

Your local time.  It should read the same time as your local computer clock reads.  Omar tries to convert everything into your own timezone to make things easier for everyone.
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by Adanac on Dec 1st, 2005, 7:33am

on 12/01/05 at 01:17:14, medarch wrote:
3. Same game, my opponent's move never showed up on my screen.  It appeared to me that his clock had run out, but by then of course, my clock had run out and I had lost!  It only happened once during that game, but in a previous game it happened several times.  I had to open up new windows to get my opponent's move and play from there, closing the old window each time.


Every now and then you'll encounter a strange glitch like this, but they're quite rare.  The situation you've described has happened to me twice before.  One thing that I've noticed both times, is that if your opponent seems to be taking an awfully long time to make a move, and the gameroom freezes up if you try to refresh it, then your opponent may have moved and it's YOU that's about to run out of time.  I find that by closing *all* arimaa windows and then logging back in again, I'll then see the move that my opponent made.  If you've already lost the game on time when you return, you can change the game to unrated (on the left side of the gameroom).

Welcome to Arimaa.  This is the first strategy game I've discovered that's more interesting than chess, so I agree with your opening paragraph above :)
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by PMertens on Dec 1st, 2005, 9:42am
welcome :-)


on 12/01/05 at 01:17:14, medarch wrote:
1.  ... I tried to play Hf7w df8s He7e df7s df6x, but only the first two steps were allowed.


if pushing you must first move the pushed piece - in that case the dog:

Hf7w df8s df7s df6x He7e


Quote:
Game number 29603....


If I am not mistaken the game number change after the game  :o
Hmm, do not ask me why that is :-)
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by medarch on Dec 1st, 2005, 2:32pm
Thanks, guys.

In the case of not being able to make the move as described above, I realize now that I may have still been used to playing Arimaa on the Zillions interface, where you move the pushing piece first.  That was probably it.

I have a screen capture of that game so I'll check to see if the game number changes as suggested by PMertens.

And for some reason this website doesn't seem to get my local time right; I think it's 1 hour slow.  I'm posting this at 3:30pm Eastern Standard Time, here in North Carolina.  Let's see what happens.
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by medarch on Dec 1st, 2005, 2:33pm
Yup, that post is marked 2:32pm instead of 3:32pm.  But at least it has the day right.
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by 99of9 on Dec 1st, 2005, 2:40pm
You can modify your forum time up in the Profile at the top of this page.    The forum time is different to the gameroom time (which is usually accurate).
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 1st, 2005, 4:13pm
Welcome, Medarch!  You are getting to know a deep and extremely addictive game.

The forum is a great place to ask general questions.  There's some useful information buried in old posts under all the chatter, but reading through old threads can be quite confusing, because a great deal has changed around here in three years.  Some of the old questions have been answered, and some of the old answers have been questioned!  Don't hesitate to ask about anything unclear; there's a great community of players that will be happy to help you out.

However, if there is an actual server bug, something that only Omar can fix, you will generally get a faster response via the "Contact" link from the home page http://arimaa.com/arimaa/ .  Depending on how busy Omar is, he might not check the forum for a week, but he always reads his e-mail.

Don't be shy about suggesting improvements.  Omar is extremely receptive to constructive ideas, even if he can only implement a few at a time.  I think you'll find the atmosphere very open and welcoming.


on 12/01/05 at 01:17:14, medarch wrote:
I've been playing against bots only so far, but I'll start taking on fellow humans when I feel ready.

I didn't start playing humans until I could beat all of the bots the majority of the time, so you certainly don't have to rush into anything.  On the other hand, because one can beat any bot (at least any of the current bots) the same way over and over, you will probably learn more by playing humans.  Not only do humans play a more interesting style, they are usually happy to go over the game afterwards and discuss key moves.

Don't be afraid to invite more experienced players to a game: many of us are starved for human opponents.  In fact, due to the Player of the Month contest, folks will be standing in line to play you as soon as you declare yourself open to be invited.


Quote:
Also, I'm a programmer, so naturally I hope to build a bot pretty soon and take up the Challenge.  I look forward to discussing that with the other bot-makers.

The Challenge promises to be boring this year, because the best bot (Bomb) is apparently not being actively developed, yet the other bots have not surpassed last year's version of Bomb.  It will be too bad if the humans can defend the Challenge this year with exactly the same techniques that worked last year.  On one hand, I'm rooting for humans to dominate Arimaa at least through 2020, but on the other hand, I'd like to see a little more fight out of the bots.  Maybe you can bring some new ideas to the table and narrow the gap which substantially widened this past year.


Quote:
1. Game number 29603

Every game that is created gets a number, but many of those never get played.  For example you can click the "Start Game" button in the lobby, and then cancel it if nobody sits down to play you.  Those games don't go into the database of completed games.  That's why the numbers of games in progress are seven thousand ahead of the numbers of completed games.  Yes, every game changes number as soon as it is completed.


Quote:
Also, how do the time controls work?  Are they just random, sequential, or is there any way to choose a certain time-per-move and so forth?

At the moment, the gameroom interface doesn't allow you to choose an arbitrary time control.  When starting a game or issuing an invitation, you must choose from a pre-defined list.  When sitting down at a game or accepting an invitation, you accept the offered time control.  However, once you get your bot working, it will be able to offer games at any time control you desire.
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by medarch on Dec 2nd, 2005, 12:01am
Thanks, Fritzlein.  I appreciate the detailed reponse.  I feel at home here already.

I agree it's a great web site already; it's clear Omar has put much effort into it, and I'm really impressed considering it's only been around for three years.  Of course, it can still get better, and I hope to be able to help with that.

So how does it feel to be the best Arimiaa player in the world?

I'm curious if any of you heavy-hitters are good chess players as well.. I mean, really really good chess players....

By the way, the game number 29603 was correct when I was playing it, as you suggested.  So that's one possible improvement: maintain game numbers.

Well, gotta go get beat by that 1-minute-per-move bot again.
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by 99of9 on Dec 2nd, 2005, 12:25am

on 12/02/05 at 00:01:28, medarch wrote:
I'm curious if any of you heavy-hitters are good chess players as well.. I mean, really really good chess players....

Not me.  I used to play in high school but stopped after that.  I was one of the best in my school, but nothing amazing.

Sorry about misleading you with the game number!
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by medarch on Dec 2nd, 2005, 1:56am
Me too, more or less.  I'm good but knew a long time ago I'd never be great.

But there must be people out there who have Arimaa wired into the brain, like some do with chess, that have not shown up yet here.  I wondered if anyone here is like that, and if they have the same talent in chess.

We need to get some serious bots going before those people show up!
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by Ryan_Cable on Dec 2nd, 2005, 2:57am

on 12/02/05 at 01:56:17, medarch wrote:
But there must be people out there who have Arimaa wired into the brain, like some do with chess, that have not shown up yet here.

Part of the problem is that there are no people that have been trained in Arimaa since childhood, like most grandmasters.  Personally, I was never willing to invest the effort of reading chess books and memorizing openings to get really good.
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by 99of9 on Dec 2nd, 2005, 4:16am

on 12/02/05 at 02:57:48, Ryan_Cable wrote:
Personally, I was never willing to invest the effort of reading chess books and memorizing openings to get really good.

I never actually realised that that was even important until I'd stopped playing myself!
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 2nd, 2005, 10:42am

on 12/02/05 at 00:01:28, medarch wrote:
I'm curious if any of you heavy-hitters are good chess players as well.. I mean, really really good chess players....

The only serious chess players around here that I know of are Adanac and Vinvin.  Maybe Paul (Leferts) as well.  I played chess in high school and drove my rating up to a whopping 1600 before I quit.  In the years since, I've played a few times and confirmed that that's still about my strength.  Like others here, I didn't spend enough time studying chess to get good at it, and I didn't play like a young Capa from the start.


Quote:
So how does it feel to be the best Arimiaa player in the world?

I think it is pretty clear that I spend more time playing and studying Arimaa than anyone else.  I've tried to write about it more than others, I've played lots of postal games, and I believe that I spend more time analyzing per move in my postal games than my opponents do.

There are lots of players around here as talented or more talented than I am at Arimaa, but unlike me, they have lives outside of the game.  My top rating is less amazing than 99of9 holding on to #2 with his reduced playing schedule, or Adanac climbing to #3 on relatively brief study.  If either of them beats me in the WC in spite of my obsession with the game, you will be seeing talent in action.  We are still learning about the game quite rapidly, and adding to "Arimaa theory" almost monthly, so I'm sure that if I took half a year off, the game would quickly pass me by.

On the other hand, it is kind of fun to at least temporarily be the authority on some topic.  For chess I was always daunted by the huge mass of books and established theory, but now I have the opposite problem of never knowing whether I am right about something.  I can ask other people, but if we disagree about something, why should I trust their opinion more than my own?  I just have to think carefully about everything and make my best guess.

The great thing about Arimaa is that you don't have to study long before you can start writing your own rules.  Or perhaps don't study at all!  Blue22 apparently couldn't read all of our accumulated wisdom due to his limited English, so he just played his own way.  Before long he scored some impressive victories with a camel attack that is supposed to be unsound.  Suddenly all the rest of us are taking another look at camel attacks.

Or consider my current postal game with Adanac.  For a few moves I was trying to pull his rabbits forward, because I think it gives me an advantage.  At the same time he was trying to push his rabbits forward, because he thought it would give him the advantage.  Essentially we were playing for the same position, because we disagreed about who it would favor.  We'll see who wins the game, but that probably won't end the debate.

And many other questions are still open.  What would you trade a camel for in the opening?  Omar would take a horse and a cat, but I say that isn't enough.  How much is a camel hostage worth?  I wouldn't give up my camel hostage for less than a dog, but some people think it is an advantage to give it up for only a rabbit or even for free!

The unexplored territory is vast, I'm only half a step ahead of the crowd, and I'm not even sure I'm going in the right direction.  That's what it feels like to be the best Arimaa player in the world.
Title: Re: hello, problems, questions
Post by Adanac on Dec 2nd, 2005, 2:38pm
It never ceases to amaze me how wrong I can be when I assume things.  I had always assumed that several Arimaa players were either Chess and/or Go experts that were looking for a new challenge in a brand new game, or AI programmers interested in a new game.  I was shocked to learn that my first assumption was incorrect after reading this thread.  If we can crush the bots this easily, imagine a young Arimaa player with the Jose Capablanca-like ability to glance at the board and almost immediately know the strongest positional move.  If such a player comes along, bot-designers would have absolutely, positively no chance at all to win the $10,000 prize before 2020!

Yes, I was a serious chess player, but nowadays the only chess games that I play are ongoing correspondence tournaments that I committed to prior to December 2004.  On the other hand, I never really developed any passion for Go.  While I like the fact that Go remains a human-dominated game, I much prefer tactical games with several different types of pieces.  I played chess seriously from 1994 to 1998 and eventually got my rating up to 2060 (which meant there were still probably about 50000 players in the world better than me  ;D ) and then I more or less quit the game in early 1998…for more than six years my chess books had been boxed away, collecting dust until I got married last summer.  I put the box on the floor of the closet when we moved to our apartment and forgot about it, as I always had done when moving to a new apartment.  I returned home one day to find that my wife had unpacked that particular box and placed my chess books on the shelves; I began re-reading my old books just for fun during my subway commutes to work, joined some correspondence tournaments (even though I was supposed to be studying for very important professional exams) and by December I had decided to make my own computer-chess program as a long-term programming hobby.

After a Google search on something related to chess AI. I had stumbled upon Arimaa (I believe it was the Wikipedia page, but I honestly can’t remember).  From the very beginning, I really, really enjoyed Arimaa and within a month I began to realize how many imperfections there are in chess.  This new game is WAY better.  Arimaa has plenty of unbalanced positional struggles with uneven material trades, lots of exciting endings, no opening positions to memorize, no lifeless 22-move GM draws, no long-sequences of virtually forced piece trades followed by long technical endgames, and it’s possible to not only play tactical positions against computers, but it’s possible to beat them without much effort!   Learning about the game relatively soon after its creation, while the theory is still unknown, is another thing I’m grateful for.

Unfortunately, I’m not able to watch the Championship game in progress because people are always walking past my desk in the office  :( But they’re not paying very close attention to what I’m doing, so I can type what I want in Word and then quickly copy and paste into arimaa.com  :)


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