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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> Commented games
        
(Message started by: chessandgo on Jul 3^rd, 2006, 8:03pm)

Title: Commented games
Post by chessandgo on Jul 3^rd, 2006, 8:03pm

Using BlackKnight's game viewer, I've tried 6 WC2006 games analysis under the names WCh2006[game number], I'll try to make two more.

http://www.maenni.com/arimaa/gameviewer.php

I'll be thankfull for any feedback, especially negative ones !

Feel free to edit them as well.

Jean

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4^th, 2006, 8:04am

Cool, thanks for doing this, chessandgo! I have only looked at one game so far, but the commentary was excellent. I'll let you know if I discover any errors as I go through the rest of the games, but I doubt I will. Instead I expect to get a good lesson.

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by chessandgo on Jul 4^th, 2006, 10:40am

haha :D
There is bound to be a lot of mistakes (well, there are not so many variations, I've been careful :-X), I'm just waiting for people to point them out ...

speaking of lessons, when do you come back to live play to give us folk some more ? ;)

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4^th, 2006, 11:37am

on 07/04/06 at 10:40:52, chessandgo wrote:

speaking of lessons, when do you come back to live play to give us folk some more ? ;)

I'm the one getting lessons in postal play, as I'm losing my present games to Adanac, 99of9, seanick, and probably you as well. But anyway I can't return to live play until after high-speed Internet is set up at our new apartment, July 5 or 6. You see what happened when fritzlforpresident tried to play you from our weak connection. :P

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by Adanac on Jul 4^th, 2006, 7:24pm

on 07/03/06 at 20:03:12, chessandgo wrote:

Wow, great job - it's amazing how well you understand the deeper strategies of Arimaa and I'm sure you'll be one of the serious favourites with 5 more months of practice. It was fun to re-experience the old WC games with commentary, but unfortunately I had to look at several of my own blunders with in-depth analysis :)

I noticed a couple of minor errors in the PMertens-Adanac but nothing big. I'll fix it up if I get a chance tomorrow.

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by chessandgo on Jul 4^th, 2006, 8:59pm

on 07/04/06 at 19:24:23, Adanac wrote:

I noticed a couple of minor errors in the PMertens-Adanac but nothing big. I'll fix it up if I get a chance tomorrow.

Great ! Let me know what you change ...

Nick had some nice ideas to deal with many people using the viewer, I hope he'll express them here someday.

Title: tRe: Commented games
Post by chessandgo on Jul 4^th, 2006, 9:28pm

on 07/04/06 at 19:24:23, Adanac wrote:

I naively thought that Karl was the only one to use extensively that kind of psychological pressure ;) Bwt, don't you guys ever stop thinking about the WC ? (not that I do, but ... :P)

As for your blunders ... wait, before Ryan challenged me, I was having a look at your game with 99, hopefully there are more to come :P

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by seanick on Jul 5^th, 2006, 1:39am

wierd, I could have sworn I posted it already. I must have been disconnected in the act of posting it.

so, my first idea was that it would be nice if multiple people could comment on an existing already-commented game, instead of replacing it. so multiple comments on a given move would attribute the user who made the comment as though each move was its own thread in a bulletin board, except trimmed down to fit inside the edit box.

Correct me if I am wrong but currently in order to modify a game, it has to be re-entered entirely, with both the original text as well as the changes, in order to replace the existing game.
in order to make it feasible to edit an existing game, it might be better organized if XML is used. I don't actually know what your server supports or I would offer to help. ( wait - was it PHP? I don't actually know PHP anyway)

The second idea is that there will be a lot of games if it ends up being useful, and they will become a very long list on the left. I don't actually remember the suggestion but it may have been to have a drop-select for available games, or just the ability to browse through them- seeing all of the available commented games only works while there are only a small number of them.

I am sure there was more. I am disappointed that I didn't post what I thought I had. well, if it comes back to me later I will try to remember to post it next time.

NICK

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by BlackKnight on Jul 5^th, 2006, 2:49am

on 07/05/06 at 01:39:04, seanick wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but currently in order to modify a game, it has to be re-entered entirely, with both the original text as well as the changes, in order to replace the existing game.

Actually, you can just open the game in the editor
http://www.maenni.com/arimaa/gameeditor.php

and then make your changes, and then save it.
You don't need to reenter anything.

Quote:

in order to make it feasible to edit an existing game, it might be better organized if XML is used. I don't actually know what your server supports or I would offer to help. ( wait - was it PHP? I don't actually know PHP anyway)

Of course we could also use an xml file to store the data instead of using the plain text pgn. I agree that adding more comments to certain moves might be easier.
If you can write a more powerful editor, I would be happy to set it up. What do you intend to use? Javascript, Perl, ...?
(Anyway, I was planning to pass the sites and codes on to Omar, so that the viewer becomes accessible via the Arimaa server. As long as I still make changes it might be easier if I keep on the other domain, which I can access constantly.)

Quote:

The second idea is that there will be a lot of games if it ends up being useful, and they will become a very long list on the left.

Hehe, hope it will really become so popular! :-)
I guess a list box is ok? Changed it quickly.

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by seanick on Jul 5^th, 2006, 10:54am

Ahh, cool, I didn't know that. I thought that because the "Add more games" link said Add and I think an earlier post of yours said something about replacing a game. I obviously haven't added one yet.

list box looks good, but can I request a small change? Is it possible to leave the current game highlighted once you refresh the page? I don't remember the exact syntax but I think it is something like <option selected value=...> (or selected=true ?). it would make it nicer to review the games.

Thanks!
NICK

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by seanick on Jul 18^th, 2006, 12:06pm

would it be missing the point to include the chat of a game in a commented game? I know that Jean for one thinks I am sending server logs to the NSA or something :) but sometimes the chat is actually helpful, funny, or the like. of course, I would get the opponent's permission before posting the comments made during the game but if I did would that be annoying for people who wanted a more in depth commentary, or could there maybe be different categories/flags for types of commented games? (Analyzed, w/ chat comments, w/variants, etc.)

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 18^th, 2006, 3:03pm

I would rather the in-game chat didn't appear in post-game commentary, or anywhere else than as chat during the game. For similar reasons, I don't post chat transcripts from Bribble into the forum. :P

My chat remarks during a game are informal and often ill-considered. I don't have time to check my spelling, for example, or consider whether the joke I'm cracking might offend someone. I hope the other player tolerates the imperfections of my chat given the time constraints. It's throw-away material in my mind.

When I post to the forum, I expect my writing to have a somewhat greater permanance and to be read by a wider audience. Therefore I spend more time trying to fix grammar errors, trying to present ideas logically, worrying about how different people will perceive what I say, etc. I proofread my forum posts and look up words I don't know how to spell. I still like a bit of informality, because we're a small community that basically gets along, and because most forum posts get buried in obscurity before too long, but I want what I write in the forum to be of higher quality than what I write in chat.

When I write on Wikipedia about Arimaa, I want my writing to be the highest quality I'm capable of. I know that anyone in the world might read it. I proofread what I have written half a dozen times or so, not only to correct grammar and spelling errors, but to remove reduncancy and increase clarity. It is worth spending an hour debating the relative merits of "A move consists of four steps" vs. "A turn consists of four moves" vs "A turn consists of four steps", based on which would be least confusing to a typical reader. I expect what I write to last for years and be read thousands of times, so attention to detail is worth the investment of effort.

If we abolish the distinction between different spheres of writing, I will have to become very cautious about what I say in any situation. I won't make off-the-cuff comments in game chat, because I will expect them to be read many times by many different people, and there won't be time within the game for me to consider the correctness, coherence, and potential ramifications of what I say.

If there is a groundswell of interest in making in-game chat publicly available after the game, I won't adamantly oppose it, but I would at least request that only chat from new games be available, games played after we have been warned that whatever we say will be memorialized forever for anyone to read.

For the games for which you already have access to the comments, Nick, i.e. the games in which you were a participant, I trust you to ask permission before posting chat comments in a more public place, although I note that last time you asked my permission after posting my chat comments to the forum. I'm glad that you would respect my wishes, but knowing that you might want to broadcast our chat, and knowing that in general you don't see any reason why you shouldn't, already makes me want to be a bit more cautious how I say things in chat.

This discussion puts me in mind of President Bush's recent informality that was caught when he didn't know he was on microphone: "[...] what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this **** and it's over [...]". Bush is comfortable talking informally, and I don't see why he shouldn't be, but if he knew his remarks were being recorded he might have expressed the same thought in different words. ;-)

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by chessandgo on Jul 18^th, 2006, 4:58pm

the moral of this : Nick, stop broadcasting each of Karl's words, or you might raise yet another scandal, as only you Americans know to do with your presidents :)

And if Karl's comment's during the game are not worth recording, then mine (even in the forum) are even a lot less so ...

Which reminds me I should stop posting twice a day :)

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by seanick on Jul 18^th, 2006, 11:03pm

I didn't intend to post the ENTIRE commentary. only parts related to specific moves. but I see that is not a very good idea. so, the bribble text has been removed, and I won't be quoting anyone anymore.
Apologies to those I have offended.

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 19^th, 2006, 9:34am

There's no need to apologize to me; it's just a difference in perspective. I should as well apologize to you for being uptight about the distribution of casual comments.

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by chessandgo on Jul 19^th, 2006, 10:50am

yeah, you've offended no one, Nick ;)

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 19^th, 2006, 11:16am

Don't worry, Nick. Jean will never know you called him a house elf.

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by seanick on Jul 19^th, 2006, 11:19am

dangit! that was supposed to be between you and. well, ...

Title: Re: Commented games
Post by FritzlForMaster on Jul 19^th, 2006, 1:17pm

heeeeeeeeh you should post more often, Ron ;)