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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> Resigning
        
(Message started by: IdahoEv on Aug 23rd, 2007, 11:59am)
Title: Resigning
Post by IdahoEv on Aug 23rd, 2007, 11:59am
A minor wish: I wish the Arimaa community bias against resigning lost games would soften.  Particularly with postals, where "playing out to the bitter end" can mean keeping tabs on a hopeless game for an extra two or three months, the injunction against resignation can be a significant logistical burden.

In understand the reasons why Omar prefers that people fight it out to the end, but there are circumstances where it is not a viable option ... or at least not a desirable one.  In my current case, I am now traveling for the third week-plus trip in the last two months, and I have only very spotty internet access (every 2-3 days).  This means I can barely keep tabs on the postal championships games I signed up for over four months ago.  My PC game against camelback timed out sometime yesterday, and it is likely my game against petitprince will do the same this weekend.  Since both were/are IMHO lost positions, I would prefer to simply honorably resign than struggle each day to find an internet cafe, interrupting my trip and inconveniencing my companions just to make a move in an endgame I can't win.

There's a difference between resigning every game at the first loss of a piece (unsportsmanlike) and using it honorably to avoid a protracted and uninteresting endgame (sportsmanlike).   I think most of us are capable of making the distinction.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by arimaa_master on Aug 23rd, 2007, 2:47pm

on 08/23/07 at 11:59:02, IdahoEv wrote:
A minor wish: I wish the Arimaa community bias against resigning lost games would soften.  Particularly with postals, where "playing out to the bitter end" can mean keeping tabs on a hopeless game for an extra two or three months, the injunction against resignation can be a significant logistical burden.

In understand the reasons why Omar prefers that people fight it out to the end, but there are circumstances where it is not a viable option ... or at least not a desirable one.  In my current case, I am now traveling for the third week-plus trip in the last two months, and I have only very spotty internet access (every 2-3 days).  This means I can barely keep tabs on the postal championships games I signed up for over four months ago.  My PC game against camelback timed out sometime yesterday, and it is likely my game against petitprince will do the same this weekend.  Since both were/are IMHO lost positions, I would prefer to simply honorably resign than struggle each day to find an internet cafe, interrupting my trip and inconveniencing my companions just to make a move in an endgame I can't win.

There's a difference between resigning every game at the first loss of a piece (unsportsmanlike) and using it honorably to avoid a protracted and uninteresting endgame (sportsmanlike).   I think most of us are capable of making the distinction.



I think in your situation resignation could be fully understandable.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by aaaa on Sep 9th, 2007, 12:42pm
It depends on the level of play.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by IdahoEv on Sep 9th, 2007, 4:19pm

on 09/09/07 at 12:42:31, aaaa wrote:
It depends on the level of play.


Care to explain what you mean?

In the etiquette of both chess and go, it is generally considered bad form to keep playing once you are confident you have lost.   If both players are 100% convinced of the outcome after a certain point, you are just wasting everyone's time by insisting on continuing to play.

I've now taught about twelve go and/or chess players to play Arimaa, and to each I had to explain that the etiquette of Arimaa is the opposite: play to the bitter end, even if you know you have lost.   Each time, these people have been totally befuddled by this quirk of Arimaa etiquette, and I frequently am in sympathy with them.

In postals, this can be pretty tiresome.  If you're down by MHCRR and in a bad position, it may still be six turns before the opponent can force goal.  What move do you make when you know none of them can lead to a win?  Meanwhile both players still have to log in and laboriously make a move every day for over a week to bring about the end.  

This unusual etiquette of Arimaa is even encoded in our rules occasionally, for example in the postal tournament you cannot receive  prize money if you resign from any game.    I think this is odd and unnecessary.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by aaaa on Sep 10th, 2007, 6:21pm
I think the anti-resignation policy of Arimaa is a tradition that stems from the early days of the game when too little of the game was known to distinguish between just being behind and playing out a lost game. However, like all other games, as one becomes more skilled, one begins to appreciate the difference better and better. Even a game like go, which offers one of, if not the best chances of all board games for comebacks, has a strict etiquette against playing on regardlessly (although its Asian origin has probably played a big role in this).
Don't let the "Big Reversals" page (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/reversals.html) fool anyone. There is only one bot-less game on it and its reversal was the result of nothing more than a gigantic blunder by chessandgo.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by 722caasi on Sep 10th, 2007, 7:55pm

on 09/09/07 at 12:42:31, aaaa wrote:
It depends on the level of play.

If the players aren't so good, luck is more important, so you should never resign, but when the players are much better, the same disadvantage will make you lose the game invariably.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by 99of9 on Sep 10th, 2007, 9:11pm
I quite like the rule, and have never felt futile, because there is always something you can try (either with the goal of setting up a new vague threat, or just bitterly resisting the overwhelming forces).  I also value the fact that games in the database are usually complete, and so as such you can do valuable statistical or historical comparisons without worrying about peoples resigning habits.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by IdahoEv on Sep 10th, 2007, 9:54pm
[quote author=99of9 link=board=talk;num=1187888342;start=0#6 date=09/10/07 at 21:11:36I also value the fact that games in the database are usually complete, and so as such you can do valuable statistical or historical comparisons without worrying about peoples resigning habits.[/quote]

I will admit that this is the one effect that gives me pause.  As a player it annoys me to spend two weeks playing out a lost postal ... as a bot developer and researcher it's very nice to have complete games in the DB.

On the other hand, I figure the game doesn't owe me (as a developer) assistance or an easy time.  
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by 722caasi on Sep 10th, 2007, 10:00pm
I think that since arimaa is primarily a game to be played, we should cater to that aspect, rather than other ones.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 11th, 2007, 8:25am
Most players admit to having trouble pushing a rabbit to goal in a strategically won position.  Swindles aren't very common, but they still happen.  Lots of us misplay our endgames.  There's plenty of debate about at what point a particular game has reached a won position.

For these reasons, I like the no resign convention.  Until we get better at endgame, I like to see how the winner converts an advantage into a goal.  When I'm losing, I don't mind annoying my opponent by dragging out the endgame.  Preference of a keeper, I suppose.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by 722caasi on Sep 11th, 2007, 8:47am
So you agree, its all about the level of play? if we were better at the endgame, then resigning would be fine?
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 11th, 2007, 9:38am
I can agree with that.  I don't think we're there yet.  Even so, I feel only a strange sense of loss when somebody resigns.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by aaaa on Sep 13th, 2007, 8:36pm

on 09/10/07 at 21:11:36, 99of9 wrote:
I also value the fact that games in the database are usually complete, and so as such you can do valuable statistical or historical comparisons without worrying about peoples resigning habits.

One can also argue the opposite, namely that one doesn't want to corrupt the database with nonsensical loss-acknowledging moves, like elephant suicide and goaling an opposing rabbit.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 14th, 2007, 7:57am
In light of this discussion, what do folks think of the ending to Game 58582 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=58582&s=w)?
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by 722caasi on Sep 14th, 2007, 9:31am
I think this was justified, as silver will definitely take at least a horse next turn, putting him up HCRR for nothing.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by IdahoEv on Sep 14th, 2007, 7:05pm

on 09/14/07 at 09:31:00, 722caasi wrote:
I think this was justified, as silver will definitely take at least a horse next turn, putting him up HCRR for nothing.


Gold can mitigate the loss next turn to only a cat with Cd4w re5n Ce4n Ef4n.  However, then he's in the same predicament the following turn but down a cat.   In addition to being down (at minimum) CCRR, his camel and horse are hostage and he will shortly be down HCCRR with bad position.  I think it's borderline, but understandable.

I'll submit one of my games as an example, as well: 58197 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=58197&s=w).

As of 35w I am down by HDRR *and* my M and other H are both hostage, plus I have poor position: my opponent's MHH are free to roam the board and I cannot generate a swarm response to the hostages because silver dominates the c5 trap.

However, he is not near goal, and I am able to draw things out for another 20 ply (despite blundering twice, since I was no longer interested in the game).  This was in the postal tournament, so 20ply meant continuing to play the game for another five weeks.  The rules of the PT disallow resignation, but I don't feel like either of us got anything out of the game after 35w.
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by camelback on Sep 14th, 2007, 8:01pm

on 09/14/07 at 07:57:58, Fritzlein wrote:
In light of this discussion, what do folks think of the ending to Game 58582 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=58582&s=w)?


I think the "Resign" button in the game interface worked perfectly. :D It even asked me for confirmation "Whether I really wanted to resign?".  After I clicked ok, it finished the game for me. I think this is one of the way to end the game if you want to test that button  :P  ;D

ok, personally I'm not a fan of resigning I try vehemently to delay the opponents goal. I hope that opponent will also make some blunder. I think stretching the game and giving hard time to opponent is good and will help your end game.

I made a similar mistake before this game and I wanted to remember this decisive mistake. Yeah and more importantly I get a chance to test the resign button ;D
Title: Re: Resigning
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 14th, 2007, 9:22pm

on 09/14/07 at 20:01:52, camelback wrote:
I think the "Resign" button in the game interface worked perfectly. :D

Well said.  If Omar wanted to prohibit resignation, he wouldn't have put a "Resign" button in the interface.  He just wants to discourage resignation, which means it will always be up to the judgment of the player what is sporting.


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