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(Message started by: omar on Jun 24th, 2008, 11:31am)
Title: Arimaa sets
Post by omar on Jun 24th, 2008, 11:31am
Every so often I get emails through the contact page from people asking if there are Arimaa sets available that they can buy. The site clearly states that Arimaa was designed so that it could be played using a chess set. Usually these are people who I don't even see in the gameroom regularly. I just explain to them that they can use a chess set and four coins to play it. One person replied back saying he knew that, but just wanted a set as decor on his coffee table :-). I found that quite funny.

For a couple years now Karl (Fritzlein) has also been asking me when I'm going to get Arimaa sets made. Of course he knows that it can be played with a chess set (he usually has his most interesting Arimaa postal positions setup on his chess set at home). However his justifications for publishing Arimaa sets made a lot of sense and eventually persuaded me. First he wanted to have the same pieces in a real set that he has become used to online. Also he said it would help legitimatize the game and attract more players to it; players who otherwise might not even consider the game. So maybe then he would have more people to play against when he logs into the gameroom. I couldn't refute that but managed to delay him by saying I'll get sets made if he would write a book about Arimaa :-). Actually, I didn't think the gameroom or the game client were ready yet for more traffic (I had not even started working on the V2 Flash client at the time); I also wanted to improve the rating system; and make various other improvements to the site. I thought that more players would just put more load on the system and possibly cause crashes and require more support from me; thus I would have even less time to improve the site. Also I like letting Arimaa grow slowly at its own pace without publicizing it too much. But I did assure him that I would eventually get sets made. Karl's wife Katie (Elmo in the gameroom) even did some research to see what it would require to self publish sets and kindly shared it with me. But it looked like it would require a lot of time and effort on my part and I just didn't feel ready for it.

Then about a year ago a game publishing company (Z-man Games http://www.zmangames.com/) contacted me about making Arimaa sets. But I was in the middle of working on the V2 client and the yearly events would be needing my attention soon after that. So I politely asked if I could get back to them in a few months.

Well I'm happy to announce that I finally did get back to them and we now have a written agreement in place to have Arimaa sets made. I can't discuss the details of the agreement, but I can tell you that most likely later this year we might actually see some real sets.

With almost 6 years of continuous play on the Internet and thousands of games played by both computers and humans (with some individuals single handedly playing over a thousand games :-) ), Arimaa will probably be the most play tested game prior to being published. I want to thank everyone (there are way too many people for me to name) who have stuck with Arimaa since its early days and have helped make the game what it is today. You've given me the confidence now to think that Arimaa really is a game that is interesting for people to play. Also I am more confident now then ever before that humans will be able to keep computers at bay for many years to come; and hopefully when the Arimaa challenge is finally won, it really will be due an advancement in software and not just the hardware getting faster.

Even with all that has happened in the Arimaa world so far I think we are still in the early stages of the game and there are lots of interesting things still waiting to happen. Imagine the many interesting challenge matches that are yet to come. Imagine watching the bots improve year to year. Imagine watching the community grow year to year and meeting the many like minded people who have yet to join. Imagine that perhaps the best players of the game aren't even aware of it yet; or maybe they are, but either way the future World championship matches are going to be ever more exciting.

If Arimaa does start to become commercially successful I would like to create a publicly owned company around it so that other can also share in its growth and success. However as long as I have any control over it the bottom line of the company will always be second to the service that it provides to the players and spectators of the game.

Also I am starting to get the feeling that I also need to setup a non-profit organization to ensure the continuity of the games future. I picture this organization being responsible for holding the Arimaa challenge fund and distributing the fund when the challenge is met or has expired. I also picture this organization being the official body that sets the match rules for the World championships and other tournaments. It would also assign official player ratings and titles; along with holding the official games database on which the ratings and titles are based. That database could include games not just from the arimaa.com site, but also other sites. I will write more about this organization in a later post.

I think 2008 is going to be a pivotal year for Arimaa and hopefully the future will be even more fun and exciting for everyone.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by mistre on Jun 24th, 2008, 4:45pm
Wow, this is great news Omar!  

I am an aspiring game designer myself - although I have never had a game published.  I did have Zman games express interest and look at one of my prototypes.  They passed on it, saying it had potential, but needed more work.  I have since then been working on improving it and hope to submit to another publisher soon.

Arimaa truly is a diamond in the rough and easily my most played and favorite game.  It has been a privilege to be in on the ground floor so to speak (although there were many before me), before it hits the big time.   And Zman games is the big time!  Look at another one of their recent game releases - Pandemic (a rare cooperative strategy game) that has become widely popular this year.

Once again, congrats Omar on this great accomplishment!

I also want to add - that someone should publish your comment over on www.boardgamegeek.com. There is not a huge following over there now, but once word gets out that Zman is publishing Arimaa - it will build traction and you would get new interest from that crowd.  I would also imagine that the Chess and Go (no pun intended) players that have yet to hear of Arimaa will show some interest.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 24th, 2008, 4:46pm
Although Omar has long encouraged me to write a book on Arimaa, it was his decision to commercially produce Arimaa that finally convinced me.  I realized that, not only would the existence of a boxed set create a large enough market for a book to be worthwhile, but also a book could help propel sales of the sets.  I believe that Arimaa is the type of game that doesn't draw people in by being superficially flashy, but has the potential to create a fanatical following if we could get more people exposed to it.  Releasing a book concurrently with the game could be good timing, and potentially create some serious momentum for this game that we all know is excellent.  Apparently Z-man agrees with this logic: he has agreed to publish my book alongside Omar's game.

So far I have drafted sixty pages of a projected one hundred.  Depending on the production schedule, I may have to ramp up my speed, at a cost to my postal games and participation in the Mob discussion.  I may even be asking community members for help with specific sections, or for actual game positions that illustrate strategic themes.

Like Omar, I will receive some royalties, but my focus is very much on promoting the game to a wider audience rather than on making money.  I would like to take this opportunity to thank Omar once again for everything he has done for the Arimaa community and for me personally.  The fact that Omar will soon have his first small revenue stream from Arimaa reminds me all the more powerfully of his generosity so far.  It would take extraordinary sales for Omar to recoup the thousands he has distributed in prizes and on server rentals, more sales than many winners of "abstract game of the year" get.  Yet Omar has permitted us to play here for years for free.  For me personally it is hard to fathom how Arimaa has changed my life, and the game was a gift freely given.

Thank you Omar.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 24th, 2008, 7:00pm

on 06/24/08 at 16:45:29, mistre wrote:
I also want to add - that someone should publish your comment over on www.boardgamegeek.com.

I added a small comment under Arimaa >> News.  Was that the right place and tone?
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Adanac on Jun 24th, 2008, 7:15pm

on 06/24/08 at 11:31:28, omar wrote:
Well I'm happy to announce that I finally did get back to them and we now have a written agreement in place to have Arimaa sets made. I can't discuss the details of the agreement, but I can tell you that most likely later this year we might actually see some real sets.


Congratulations Omar, that’s fantastic!!!  Once the game gets widely distributed, you’ll be praised as the greatest abstract strategy game inventor since what’s-his-name created chess 1500 years ago.  Arimaa is definitely ready for that big step forward.  I feel so lucky to have stumbled upon Arimaa during the early years, and it will be exciting to see its exponential growth in the very near future.  And I’m really curious to see all the new opening setups & ideas that emerge after thousands of new players take up the game.  I’m pretty sure that current Arimaa theory is at that chess equivalent of pre-Damiano 16th century.


on 06/24/08 at 16:46:27, Fritzlein wrote:

So far I have drafted sixty pages of a projected one hundred.  Depending on the production schedule, I may have to ramp up my speed, at a cost to my postal games and participation in the Mob discussion.  I may even be asking community members for help with specific sections, or for actual game positions that illustrate strategic themes.


If you need any help, I’d be more than happy to chip in…and I’ll have more leisure time in July & August!
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by The_Jeh on Jun 24th, 2008, 11:01pm
This news brings me nothing but joy, Omar. Arimaa has filled a hole in my heart. But what inspires me more than the game itself is what I have witnessed over the past several years. I have seen a man, through ingenuity and hard work, realize a dream and bring happiness to many people in the process.


So, does this mean we are free to discuss GM norms, vie for board positions in the IAA, and start planning local affiliates?  :)

And Fritzlein, just curious, but how do you show board positions in your book? Do you have special graphics? Perhaps you could start a new thread for discussion of your book (and pre-release sneak-peeks, or I'm going to die).
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Arimabuff on Jun 25th, 2008, 4:17am

on 06/24/08 at 23:01:19, The_Jeh wrote:
This news brings me nothing but joy, Omar. Arimaa has filled a hole in my heart. But what inspires me more than the game itself is what I have witnessed over the past several years. I have seen a man, through ingenuity and hard work, realize a dream and bring happiness to many people in the process.


So, does this mean we are free to discuss GM norms, vie for board positions in the IAA, and start planning local affiliates?  :)

And Fritzlein, just curious, but how do you show board positions in your book? Do you have special graphics? Perhaps you could start a new thread for discussion of your book (and pre-release sneak-peeks, or I'm going to die).

Someday it'll be said of Fritzlein : "The man who wrote the book on Arimaa".  :)
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by mistre on Jun 25th, 2008, 5:09am

on 06/24/08 at 16:46:27, Fritzlein wrote:
I may even be asking community members for help with specific sections, or for actual game positions that illustrate strategic themes.


I would gladly be willing to help any way that I can.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 25th, 2008, 6:06am

on 06/24/08 at 23:01:19, The_Jeh wrote:
So, does this mean we are free to discuss GM norms, vie for board positions in the IAA, and start planning local affiliates?  :)

I hope so.  I think Omar is right that there should be some kind of non-profit to hold the Arimaa Challenge prize fund, and some kind of organization to facilitate clubs and tournaments, but I have no idea how to go about either.  Or should it be the same organization?

The reason for the first became clear when I got ready to donate money to the prize fund.  I trust Omar absolutely, so I have no qualms cutting him a check on the understanding that it will be used to increase the Challenge Prize fund.  At the same time, however, I realized that I wouldn't fork over money to anyone I didn't know personally.  Omar hopes to have outside sponsorship for the Arimaa Challenge, but it just isn't going to happen without some kind of body to oversee the funds, guided by some kind of charter.  Therefore I am temporarily withholding my money as an incentive for him to get organized, so I can be the first donor when he does.  One thought for constructing the charter is that the prize money sit in a money-market account gathering interest, with the principal to be saved for the Challenge, and the interest to be distributed as prizes for yearly tournaments.

A reason for the second organization is that (strange as it seems to me) some people don't want to play board games on the Internet, they only want to play face to face.  The arimaa.com gameroom doesn't have to be the center of the Arimaa universe; in fact thinking about it that way may keep the universe smaller than it would otherwise be.  Somehow we ought to foster club play.  Local clubs will find what works for them for live play, and we can use the feedback to standardize rules.  (Only a small fraction of the official rules of chess deal with the abstract terms of engagement; the majority deal with practicalities caused by having real people playing on physical sets.)  And yes, it would be great to have titles, and hopefully a live World Championship some day.

I have to remind myself not to get carried away.  A big organizational structure will look silly if game sales don't take off, and most abstract strategy games do not sell well.  In this day of video games, it seems anachronistic to ask people to sit quietly and think.  Z-man himself is an oddity in the game publishing world.  The big publishers don't produce good games, they produce games they think will sell.  The small publishers that will produce games they love tend not to be financially successful.  To have a successful publisher like Z-man take a chance on Arimaa just because it is a good game is a dream come true, but it doesn't mean his gamble will pay off.

By the way, mistre, best of luck getting your own game published.  I know it is brutally hard without Harry Potter-themed pieces.


Quote:
And Fritzlein, just curious, but how do you show board positions in your book? Do you have special graphics?

Yes, diagrams are tricky.  The color images we use on-line are out of the question, because printing in color is prohibitively expensive.  We need black-and-white images like they have in chess diagrams.  Flattening the color images to black and white won't work either because the current images rely on shading, and grey-scale images are harder to read than solid color figurines and their photo-negative.  So actually board diagrams represent a graphic design problem as well as a printing layout problem.

Fortunately for me, the board diagrams are Z-Man's problem.  That's an advantage of not self-publishing!  I am just doing diagrams in ASCII text like we did in the Mob discussion.  Z-Man has produced beautiful rule books with graphical illustrations, so they ought to know how to handle this little issue.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 25th, 2008, 6:18am

on 06/25/08 at 04:17:56, Arimabuff wrote:
Someday it'll be said of Fritzlein : "The man who wrote the book on Arimaa".  :)

Whatever that amounts to, it will be vastly less impressive than being Omar, the man who invented Arimaa.  Also, I'm writing a beginner book, not a deep strategy guide.  All of you already know everything I'm going to say about how to play.  What I am contributing is (hopefully) a clear, logical, readable expression of the basics, so that it takes newcomers fewer games to get up to speed, and they don't have to learn everything the hard way.  I'm counting on chessandgo to write a more advanced strategy guide, and indeed, he already has one partially written.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 25th, 2008, 6:23am

on 06/24/08 at 11:31:28, omar wrote:
Every so often I get emails through the contact page from people asking if there are Arimaa sets available that they can buy. The site clearly states that Arimaa was designed so that it could be played using a chess set. Usually these are people who I don't even see in the gameroom regularly. I just explain to them that they can use a chess set and four coins to play it. One person replied back saying he knew that, but just wanted a set as decor on his coffee table :-). I found that quite funny.

For a couple years now Karl (Fritzlein) has also been asking me when I'm going to get Arimaa sets made. Of course he knows that it can be played with a chess set (he usually has his most interesting Arimaa postal positions setup on his chess set at home). However his justifications for publishing Arimaa sets made a lot of sense and eventually persuaded me. First he wanted to have the same pieces in a real set that he has become used to online. Also he said it would help legitimatize the game and attract more players to it; players who otherwise might not even consider the game. So maybe then he would have more people to play against when he logs into the gameroom. I couldn't refute that but managed to delay him by saying I'll get sets made if he would write a book about Arimaa :-). Actually, I didn't think the gameroom or the game client were ready yet for more traffic (I had not even started working on the V2 Flash client at the time); I also wanted to improve the rating system; and make various other improvements to the site. I thought that more players would just put more load on the system and possibly cause crashes and require more support from me; thus I would have even less time to improve the site. Also I like letting Arimaa grow slowly at its own pace without publicizing it too much. But I did assure him that I would eventually get sets made. Karl's wife Katie (Elmo in the gameroom) even did some research to see what it would require to self publish sets and kindly shared it with me. But it looked like it would require a lot of time and effort on my part and I just didn't feel ready for it.

Then about a year ago a game publishing company (Z-man Games http://www.zmangames.com/) contacted me about making Arimaa sets. But I was in the middle of working on the V2 client and the yearly events would be needing my attention soon after that. So I politely asked if I could get back to them in a few months.

Well I'm happy to announce that I finally did get back to them and we now have a written agreement in place to have Arimaa sets made. I can't discuss the details of the agreement, but I can tell you that most likely later this year we might actually see some real sets.

With almost 6 years of continuous play on the Internet and thousands of games played by both computers and humans (with some individuals single handedly playing over a thousand games :-) ), Arimaa will probably be the most play tested game prior to being published. I want to thank everyone (there are way too many people for me to name) who have stuck with Arimaa since its early days and have helped make the game what it is today. You've given me the confidence now to think that Arimaa really is a game that is interesting for people to play. Also I am more confident now then ever before that humans will be able to keep computers at bay for many years to come; and hopefully when the Arimaa challenge is finally won, it really will be due an advancement in software and not just the hardware getting faster.

Even with all that has happened in the Arimaa world so far I think we are still in the early stages of the game and there are lots of interesting things still waiting to happen. Imagine the many interesting challenge matches that are yet to come. Imagine watching the bots improve year to year. Imagine watching the community grow year to year and meeting the many like minded people who have yet to join. Imagine that perhaps the best players of the game aren't even aware of it yet; or maybe they are, but either way the future World championship matches are going to be ever more exciting.

If Arimaa does start to become commercially successful I would like to create a publicly owned company around it so that other can also share in its growth and success. However as long as I have any control over it the bottom line of the company will always be second to the service that it provides to the players and spectators of the game.

Also I am starting to get the feeling that I also need to setup a non-profit organization to ensure the continuity of the games future. I picture this organization being responsible for holding the Arimaa challenge fund and distributing the fund when the challenge is met or has expired. I also picture this organization being the official body that sets the match rules for the World championships and other tournaments. It would also assign official player ratings and titles; along with holding the official games database on which the ratings and titles are based. That database could include games not just from the arimaa.com site, but also other sites. I will write more about this organization in a later post.

I think 2008 is going to be a pivotal year for Arimaa and hopefully the future will be even more fun and exciting for everyone.


Wow! I am so excited and thrilled I can barely write - I have tears in my eyes right now - dunno what more to say  - future is so bright!
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 25th, 2008, 6:30am

on 06/25/08 at 05:09:42, mistre wrote:
I would gladly be willing to help any way that I can.

Thanks, I really appreciate that offer.  One thing I could use right off the bat is an example of an elephant blockade that has negative value.  Years ago I found one that I included in the Wikibook here (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Arimaa/Introduction_to_Strategy/Elephant_Blockade#Worthless_Elephant_Blockades), but I am trying not to include the same examples in my current text as the Wikibook.  Interestingly, people will often pay to buy a book that is available on-line for free, but I want to produce new material regardless of sales, just because more is added to the collective study resource that way.  Plus I hope that I'm not just re-hashing the Wikibook with different diagrams.  If my perspective has deepened since I wrote there, my presentation of even the simple material should be more mature and lead more naturally to advanced concepts.

Anyway, the best bet for negative-value elephant blockade is probably Gnobot, but I haven't looked yet.  If you can remember such a position or dig one up, I would be much obliged.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by mistre on Jun 25th, 2008, 8:19am

on 06/25/08 at 06:30:39, Fritzlein wrote:
Thanks, I really appreciate that offer.  One thing I could use right off the bat is an example of an elephant blockade that has negative value.  Years ago I found one that I included in the Wikibook here (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Arimaa/Introduction_to_Strategy/Elephant_Blockade#Worthless_Elephant_Blockades), but I am trying not to include the same examples in my current text as the Wikibook.  Interestingly, people will often pay to buy a book that is available on-line for free, but I want to produce new material regardless of sales, just because more is added to the collective study resource that way.  Plus I hope that I'm not just re-hashing the Wikibook with different diagrams.  If my perspective has deepened since I wrote there, my presentation of even the simple material should be more mature and lead more naturally to advanced concepts.

Anyway, the best bet for negative-value elephant blockade is probably Gnobot, but I haven't looked yet.  If you can remember such a position or dig one up, I would be much obliged.


I looked back at my recent games and found 3 specific instances thanks to my comments (I knew these would come in handy one day!).  

The first two were against GnobotBlitz - games 64640 (moves 38-58 ) and 68397 (moves 19-end).  I am not sure about these actually being negative blockades though.  Maybe I was just able to win despite the blockade.

However, I am sure that my recent game vs CluelessBlitz - game 77217 (moves 8-17) is a perfect example of a negative blockade.  He used his E and M to block my E on one trap and let me attack the opposing trap with M-H-D unopposed. He finally broke the blockade on move 17 and I goaled 3 moves later.

I don't know how many examples you need.  I know that I have had other games vs. Gnobot where he wasted time with an elaborate E-blocking scheme and allowed me to gain the advantage.  I would have to dig some more to find them though.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 25th, 2008, 10:15am

on 06/25/08 at 08:19:20, mistre wrote:
I don't know how many examples you need.

I need only one, and I expect one of these will work perfectly.  Thank you!

[EDIT] Yep, game 77217 nicely illustrates a couple of points I wanted to make.  Now your win over Clueless will be famous (if the book ever sells).
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by chessandgo on Jun 25th, 2008, 1:49pm
This is great news, Omar ! Congratulations for the enormous amount of work you've done so far to make arimaa what it is today. You say that we are at a turning point for arimaa, and I trust you blind, so it's a good time to look back and praise your achievement, for which we'll never praise you enough.

I was already crazily happy that arimaa clothings were created, and it'll even be a huge lot better when game sets and Karl's book will be available. Feels like the progression of arimaa is going to have a boom, and I join all who have expressed their pleasure before me :)

Thanks also Omar for sharing your stories about what has been done already and about your views for the future.

Have fun playing arimaa, folks ! :)

Jean
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Janzert on Jun 25th, 2008, 2:05pm
This is great news (both the commercial sets and the book). One thing I thought of that might be nice to try and clean up before these are published is the remaining gold/silver, white/black discontinuities. And actually the only public facing place that shows might just be the move list in the game interface.

Janzert
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 26th, 2008, 5:51am

on 06/25/08 at 14:05:25, Janzert wrote:
One thing I thought of that might be nice to try and clean up before these are published is the remaining gold/silver, white/black discontinuities. And actually the only public facing place that shows might just be the move list in the game interface.

Ha, you beat me to making this point, Janzert.  One thing that will tend to happen along with the publication of Arimaa sets is that everything will become set in stone.  This thought provided some urgency to the rule changes Omar was considering to the draw rule (changed) and the setup rule (not changed).  Those decisions are nearly final once a bunch of rule books get printed up.  There is a historical precedent: The game Lines of Action was given broad publicity in Sid Sackson's book A Gamut of Games, where simultaneous connection was ruled a draw.  Later the inventor of the game clarified he wanted simultaneous connection to be a win for the moving player, and Sackson corrected it in the next edition of his book, but it was too late.  To this day Lines of Action tournaments score simultaneous connection as a draw.  Omar said in the rules thread that we can always change the setup phase later if we need to, but that's wishful thinking.  He can change a rule on this server, true, but if the game takes off in popularity then most games won't be played on this server.

I discovered as I was writing my book that I couldn't bring myself to use the "b" and "w" for the sides in the notation.  It requires explanation to the reader, and how would I explain it?  That we aren't sure if the players are Gold and Silver or Black and White?  This flaw isn't as important as a blemish in the rules, but appearances do matter, and if we are going to change, now is the last good chance.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by mistre on Jun 26th, 2008, 6:27am
I noticed that you used s and g with the move numbers in one your posts and I actually wondered the same thing - why aren't we using them instead of b and w?

Having said that, are we sure that the actual pieces in the published edition will be gold and silver?  I hope they are because it will help separate Arimaa from Chess even more than if the pieces were black and white.

While we consider changes to the notation - should we consider potentially better ways to record moves than the current notation?  The problem I have with the current notation is that it is difficult to follow and in some cases a single move can be noted with 2 distinct notations, both of them being correct ways to achieve the end result.

I also wonder about all of the play conventions that will need to be resolved with a physical set.  Can you move pieces and then move them back?  Will you need to move all 4 steps at once, or can you move incrementally and count the steps in some fashion?  How do you physically show that a piece is being pushed or pulled?  Having up to 4 steps in one turn as opposed to 1 in chess will be a challenge to implement.  Has any thought been given to this yet?
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by aaaa on Jun 26th, 2008, 6:30am
One should realize that existing bots will no longer work if the game notation of the server were to be changed.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Janzert on Jun 26th, 2008, 11:15am

on 06/26/08 at 06:30:47, aaaa wrote:
One should realize that existing bots will no longer work if the game notation of the server were to be changed.


Yes, I was thinking the easiest thing is to just have the game client change its display. Eventually it would be nice to transition the server internals and everything over as well though. This could probably be done by adding a translation layer into the standard bot interface for the older bots.

Just for a little more background, this is something that I found mentally jarring whenever writing arimaa programs. I would start out using the gold and silver internally for variables then run into w/b once I started trying to parse data from, or interact with, the arimaa server. Certainly not a big deal though.

Janzert
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Arimabuff on Jun 26th, 2008, 11:25am

on 06/26/08 at 11:15:46, Janzert wrote:
Yes, I was thinking the easiest thing is to just have the game client change its display. Eventually it would be nice to transition the server internals and everything over as well though. This could probably be done by adding a translation layer into the standard bot interface for the older bots.

Janzert

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Why go through all this trouble to change something that works well enough as it is?
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Janzert on Jun 26th, 2008, 1:07pm

on 06/26/08 at 11:25:08, Arimabuff wrote:
Why go through all this trouble to change something that works well enough as it is?


You're right it really isn't that big of a problem. It's just something where the player is cruising along, gold and silver, gold and silver, take a look under the hood, whoa, white and black?! Then it takes a bit, for me at least it did, to remember is white silver? Or was it gold? I'm probably slow (not to mention a bit dyslexic) but yeah I do remember having to go back and double check that a couple of times.

Janzert
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by mistre on Jun 26th, 2008, 1:23pm
w(white) is Gold even though Silver is closer to white in color than Gold is. For this reason alone, we should change it.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 27th, 2008, 4:25am

on 06/26/08 at 13:07:02, Janzert wrote:
You're right it really isn't that big of a problem. It's just something where the player is cruising along, gold and silver, gold and silver, take a look under the hood, whoa, white and black?! Then it takes a bit, for me at least it did, to remember is white silver? Or was it gold? I'm probably slow (not to mention a bit dyslexic) but yeah I do remember having to go back and double check that a couple of times.

Janzert


Sometimes when I replay a game and see the w/b I look at the b and the silver color and think blue.  Then I look at the gold and think orange.  Really.  So I agree that the display to the user should at least be changed to g/s.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Arimabuff on Jun 27th, 2008, 12:07pm

on 06/27/08 at 04:25:18, RonWeasley wrote:
Sometimes when I replay a game and see the w/b I look at the b and the silver color and think blue.  Then I look at the gold and think orange.  Really.  So I agree that the display to the user should at least be changed to g/s.

Silver is a metal a LOT less valuable than gold and it might make people think that gold has a huge advantage, so I propose we replace silver with platinum.  It'd even things up a little.  ;)
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 27th, 2008, 2:08pm
When Z-man asked what the sets should look like, Omar said that the board should be marble, the animals should be made of actual gold and silver, and the eyes should be rubies and emeralds respectively.  I wonder what the sales will be like at a retail price of $100,000 per set.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 27th, 2008, 2:16pm

on 06/26/08 at 06:27:33, mistre wrote:
I also wonder about all of the play conventions that will need to be resolved with a physical set.  Can you move pieces and then move them back?  Will you need to move all 4 steps at once, or can you move incrementally and count the steps in some fashion?  How do you physically show that a piece is being pushed or pulled?  Having up to 4 steps in one turn as opposed to 1 in chess will be a challenge to implement.  Has any thought been given to this yet?

Someone who had played on a physical set (I think it was MrBrain.) said that Arimaa would be unplayable if one were allowed to take back steps.  I expect that not only is he right, but furthermore serious players will eventually require the entire move to be made at once, rather than incrementally counting steps.  I'm not sure how that could be enforced, though.  It's a lot more tricky than the chess rule "if you touch it, you have to move it, and if you let it go, you have to leave it".
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by omar on Jun 29th, 2008, 8:02am
Thanks everyone for the nice comments. I've been traveling lately and have not had much time to check on Arimaa. I was really surprised to see all the discussion this thread has generated. Wish I could be more involved, but its going to be a little difficult while I am traveling.

The white/black gold/silver thing is a bit of a mess. However,  it is going to be a bit difficult to change now since there are many bots for which I only have the binaries and can't change. So perhaps only in the game clients that display to humans we would be able to change the notation so that it displays g/s instead of w/b.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by IdahoEv on Dec 8th, 2008, 2:26pm
This is one of the coolest things I have read in a while!   Congratulations Omar!  (And congratulations Karl, on the book!)

And:  has it really been since June that I was on the site?  Sheesh...
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by omar on May 24th, 2009, 7:32pm
Zev sent me a sample Arimaa set. It turned out very nice. I think it is almost ready to go; just need to change the color of the pieces a bit to make it look more gold and silver like. I showed it to Karl and took some pictures of it along with Karl's book. Here are some early pictures of it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20979381@N02/sets/72157618667475569/
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by clauchau on May 25th, 2009, 4:05am
Very good. I only wish their face didn't look so angry.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Arimabuff on May 25th, 2009, 7:38am
I like it, but gold and silver would look classier...
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by omar on Jun 3rd, 2009, 2:38pm

on 05/25/09 at 04:05:14, clauchau wrote:
Very good. I only wish their face didn't look so angry.


Well, since they are engaged in battle, I thought the angry look would be appropriate :-) It's one of those decisions where you just have to pick something and go with it. There might be some people who like the angry look and some who don't. You can't please everyone :-)
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by omar on Jun 3rd, 2009, 2:41pm

on 05/25/09 at 07:38:21, Arimabuff wrote:
I like it, but gold and silver would look classier...

They do look a bit too yellow and gray. We are trying to shoot for a more gold and silver look.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Kraizy_Dave on Jun 16th, 2009, 9:51am
Awesome news, I have wanted a set since pretty much my first game of Arimaa. Well done Omar.

For competitive play it would make sense if a player had to write down the complete move (all four stages) prior to moving any pieces.

The alternative would be to have two sets, one for the game and one for thinking- but this would be impractical.

I agree with the point somebody previously made about the notation-it seems like a lot of effort, there must be a more efficient way to do it.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by mistre on Jun 17th, 2009, 9:53am

on 06/16/09 at 09:51:08, Kraizy_Dave wrote:
For competitive play it would make sense if a player had to write down the complete move (all four stages) prior to moving any pieces.


Not sure how that would work - must be a better way.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by tfitzgib on Jul 6th, 2009, 7:05pm
While trying not to sound like a jerk (especially since I'm new here), I think the Camels look too similar to the Horses.  I was also looking forward to droopy-eared Dogs; this would help newbies distinguish them from the Cats.  But these are mild quibbles of an important milestone--if these start selling, call the media and let them know you've come up with the next big thing!
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 7th, 2009, 10:19am
If I had designed the set, making the pieces easily distinguishable would have been my highest priority.  Someone else might have emphasized the most realistic representation possible.  For Omar the facial expressions were clearly very important.

My hope is that Arimaa will be such a success that there will be many editions with many different styles of artwork.  Think of all the different chess sets you have seen in your life.  No matter what your tastes are, someone out there has manufactured a chess set that is exactly right for you.  Imagine if something similar happened for Arimaa!
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 8th, 2009, 4:38am
I'm waiting for the life-sized version where the rabbits look like vilas.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by tfitzgib on Jul 8th, 2009, 6:01am

on 07/07/09 at 10:19:25, Fritzlein wrote:
If I had designed the set, making the pieces easily distinguishable would have been my highest priority.  Someone else might have emphasized the most realistic representation possible.  For Omar the facial expressions were clearly very important.

My hope is that Arimaa will be such a success that there will be many editions with many different styles of artwork.  Think of all the different chess sets you have seen in your life.  No matter what your tastes are, someone out there has manufactured a chess set that is exactly right for you.  Imagine if something similar happened for Arimaa!


Indeed--who's up for a game of Star Wars themed Arimaa?!  Or maybe Lord of the Rings (idea: Gold's Rabbits are ring-bearing Hobbits; Silver's goal line is illustrated to resemble the Cracks of Doom).  That's the sort of thing we'll see if this takes off, and I personally look forward to it.
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 8th, 2009, 10:24am

on 07/08/09 at 04:38:46, RonWeasley wrote:
I'm waiting for the life-sized version where the rabbits look like vilas.

What's a vila(s)?
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Simon on Jul 8th, 2009, 5:53pm
He meant "Veela" I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_fairies#Modern_fiction
Title: Re: Arimaa sets
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 8th, 2009, 9:04pm

on 07/08/09 at 17:53:44, Simon wrote:
He meant "Veela" I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_fairies#Modern_fiction

According to this article, the vilas are shapeshifters and can appear as anything they want (including rabbits I guess). So in a way the pieces ALREADY look like vilas, all of them.  ;)


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