|
||||||||||||
|
Title: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 4:03pm Because I agitated so hard for a tournament tool, Omar has given me access to some tournament director APIs. I will have to do the pairing, scoring, and other administrivia by hand, but I will be able to tap into the World Championship tool for scheduling a mutually agreeable time across time zones, as well as the tool for creating a game and forfeiting a player that doesn't show up at the scheduled time. I'm so excited, I have decided to immediately launch a tournament to test it out. The format will be continuous play at the pace of one game per week, just like the World Championship. Players can join or withdraw at any time by posting to this thread or e-mailing me. There is no entry fee. Pairings, results, and standings will be listed in the second post in this thread, which I will update as we go. The rules will be listed in this first post of the thread, and I will also update the rules as we go, entirely at my whim. As the benevolent tournament I will offer prizes to encourage serious participation at all levels. The pairing will be Swiss-like to ensure that everyone has nearly-even games, not only so that everyone can earn prize points, but also because nearly-even games are the most interesting and fun. If you win a game, your opponent the next round will be tougher, whereas if you lose, your opponent next round will be weaker. For all players at the start of the tournament, and for late-joining players as they arrive, I will estimate the appropriate pairing flight entirely subjectively. For example, if PMertens joins late I might pair him at flight 8 of 10. If a newcomer joins late, I will probably pair him at flight zero, i.e. I will give him the easiest possible opponent. After my arbitrary seeding, a player's flight will be calculated by the formula NewFlight = 0.9 * OldFlight + (1 for win | 0 for loss). Thus if you were paired as a 3-win player this round and win, you will be paired as a 3.7-win player next round. Players will not be paired against anyone they have played in the previous four rounds. I will increase or decrease the number of rounds to exclude repeat pairings depending on whether more or fewer players sign up. Color assignment within each pairing will be made on the basis of games each player has played within the tournament, including forfeits. The rules are given in order of strict priority, i.e. a later rule will apply only if no prior rule distinguishes between the players. 1. Assign Gold to the player with a lower total of previous games as Gold minus previous games as Silver. 2. Assign Gold to the player with fewer previous games as Gold among games between the two players. 3. Break both color streaks. 4. Break the color streak of the player with the longer streak. 5. Swap colors with respect to the last time the two players played against each other. 6. Assign color arbitrarily. All games will be played at a time control of 60s/5m/75/0/4h/4m. The prize points will be as follows: 100 points for a win X points for a non-forfeit loss where X is the number of moves in the game or 80, whichever is smaller -100 points for a forfeit Points can be redeemed for prizes as follows: 400 points for an Arimaa bumper sticker 2200 points for an Arimaa T-shirt (free international shipping included; more prize choices to come) I reserve the right to subtract any or all points from accounts of players who engage in unsporting behavior, including but not limited to playing with a duplicate account, intentionally losing a game, and intentionally not winning in order to prolong a game. Players who forfeit will automatically be withdrawn from future rounds unless they individually post to this thread or e-mail me that they would like to rejoin. Players who give notice that they would like to withdraw before the round is paired will not lose any prize points, and their flight number will stay the same should they rejoin at a later date. Thus the tournament will accommodate players who can only play sporadically, as long as such players give advance notice every time they withdraw or rejoin. The tournament will not be linked into Omar's system for automatic e-mail reminders, so it will be the responsibility of players to go to http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/selectTimes.cgi every week to update their available time slots. However, if players can mutually agree on a time to play, I will be able to change the automatically scheduled time to whatever time they agree on. If a game ends due to forfeit or technical difficulties in the middle of the game, the two players involved may replay it from the start. (I originally wanted interrupted games to be resumed from the ending position only, but this is so great a hassle as to be technically infeasible.) No one is obliged to replay a game. For a game to replace the official game, it must be a rated game at the time control of sixty seconds per move, played before the end of the week, and the player who won the official game must add a comment to the replacement game saying that it should count instead of the official game. Bots may play, but only if they are run by their developer, i.e. no home copies of Bomb. Please be patient with any technical difficulties. The tournament director APIs are as yet untested. My email is yangfuli@yahoo.com. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 4:03pm The status page has been moved here (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/ct/status/). Thank you, woh, for making it pretty and easy to update! Round 21 pairings have been set and the games have been scheduled. This is the last round until after the World Championships are over. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by camelback on Jul 27th, 2008, 4:35pm Exciting news :) Thanks for the tournament Fritz, please add me in. I will not be available in weekends for next 5 weeks, hopefully, I finish my games during weekdays. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 4:43pm on 07/27/08 at 16:35:16, camelback wrote:
You're in! Quote:
That's what the scheduling tool is for :-) I hope you don't get really awkward times, but at a minimum you can guarantee that you don't have to play on the weekend. Plus, if there is some week where you can't even mark enough weekday slots, you can withdraw from that week before I do the pairings. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 27th, 2008, 5:10pm I'm glad this tournament is mature enough not to penalize resignations, but are you sure you want the penalty of a forfeit be worth an entire win? [EDIT] Removed sentence based on an oversight. [/EDIT] [EDIT2] Wait a minute, let me get this straight: In a game that lasts for more than 100 moves, the loser gets more points than the winner? [/EDIT2] [EDIT3] Better truncate the maximum number of points given for a loss to, say, 50 in order to discourage collusion. [/EDIT3] |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 6:12pm I do want the penalty of a forfeit to be an entire win. Forfeits during the preliminaries of the World Championship were totally lame, and in a contest with no entry fee, they will be even lamer. People should have enough consideration for their fellow participants to withdraw on weeks when they can't play, rather than making someone go through the hassle of picking time preferences and showing up for a game only to get no game against anyone that week. I agree that there should be a cutoff of the maximum points to the loser. Eighty sounds about right to me. If there appears to be collusion, I will attempt to deal with the perpetrators as directly as possible. Rather than change the rules so that a long, hard-fought game is not rewarded, I would penalize the people who are not playing in sporting fashion. Thanks for the suggestions, aaaa. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Jul 27th, 2008, 6:24pm I'm in!! ;D i really hope there are some weaker players though...i don't want to be put against Omar and The_Jeh types every game :P |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 6:48pm on 07/27/08 at 18:24:02, Tuks wrote:
Added. You can do yourself (and the tournament) a favor by telling newcomers to join. Next time you play Bilal or Hamzah, make sure they know they are welcome in the tournament and could win free prizes. Then you will have someone to beat up on. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Jul 27th, 2008, 7:13pm great idea! ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 27th, 2008, 7:15pm on 07/27/08 at 18:12:48, Fritzlein wrote:
But conversely, the current setup discriminates against those whose playing styles tend to cause games to last only a relatively few moves, so that the ostensibly proper goal of maximizing one's chances of a win does not completely coincide with that of maximizing the expected number of points gained from playing a game. And since it's also hard to draw the line between outright colluding and those about to win being a little bit generous in conceding some more moves and consequent points to their opponents, I think you should make the whole scheme a little more zero-sum like by not just encouraging players to lose slow, but also to win fast, i.e. having the points given for a win be calculated by subtracting the number of moves from a given point total, also having a cutoff of course, this time in the other direction. Does one also get points if the opponent forfeited? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:17pm Yes, the winner gets prize points even if the loser forfeits. It's true that rewarding slow losses discriminates against wild attacking players, but having a zero-sum award of points where the winner gets less for winning slowly would discriminate against plodding, methodical players like myself who tend to win slowly. The only way for the points award to provide no discrimination relative to the game per se is to have the winner and loser each get a fixed number of points. I'm open to that if necessary, but I think the scoring as is will be fine. I don't see discrimination as a big problem in a contest where everyone plays for free and can win free prizes. The bigger issue is when the leading player intentionally prolongs the game, which I don't expect to happen, and which I think can be addressed if it arises. It is not so simple to appear to be trying to win while in reality avoiding it. You watch the games, and let me know if you were right to be worried about it. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:17pm If we're in need of weaker players, I'll consider entering gnobot. For those who've done it before, how does a bot go about using the scheduling tool? Is it possible for me to log into the gameroom using my bot's username? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:25pm on 07/27/08 at 20:17:39, 99of9 wrote:
Oh, please do enter Gnobot! Sorry I don't know how to log in to the game room as a bot, but if Gnobot is playing and you are not, I could use your time preferences instead of the bot's for scheduling. If both of you enter as players (which would be extra, super great), and you don't want to have identical preferences as your bot, then we'll have to figure out how to get Gnobot's preferences entered independently. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:26pm When a game is replayed on the players' own initiative, will it still count if it's accidentally unrated? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:29pm on 07/27/08 at 20:26:05, aaaa wrote:
I would prefer all tournament games to be rated. I think if the game is accidentally unrated we could still count it as long as both players post comments saying that is the game they want to count, but if "accidents" keep happening we can make it a rule that the replay must be rated to count. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:52pm on 07/27/08 at 20:17:39, 99of9 wrote:
I don't think you will be able to directly enter the times for your bot. For now, just mail them to me as slot numbers and I will enter them. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Jul 27th, 2008, 9:05pm Thanks for offering us this tournament Karl. It is very generous of you to also offer prizes with it. I hope this tournament is a success. When we get close to starting the human world championship tournament is it OK if we pause this tournament. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Jul 27th, 2008, 10:28pm Eventually I would be interested in entering OpFor as well; just two reasons I'm holding off for a bit. I knew from past conversation with Omar that the scheduling tool isn't really setup for easy use with bots. Although after the first few weeks OpFor participates I think I'll be comfortable just saying that OpFor can play its game at the time best for the human. The second reason is that, while I really like seeing events that allow humans and bots to participate equally, I see the primary purpose of the tournament as encouraging more HvH games and I would hate to end up discouraging anyone because they don't want to go through the scheduling effort then get stuck playing a bot. Overall I think having Gnobot in from the beginning is great though. This will allow participants to have one bot in the mix and get/stay comfortable with the idea. But I would like to encourage any other developers to join me and hold off for a bit and let the tournament get up to speed. Also maybe Omar will find time to add a good way for us to schedule bots without adding to his workload. Janzert P.S. I'm hoping this will also provide impetus for further Gnobot development or maybe we can take this as a sign that such development is already ongoing? ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Jul 28th, 2008, 2:24am on 07/27/08 at 22:28:18, Janzert wrote:
Unfortunately gnobby will be running off my laptop, so I can't offer such flexibility. The good news is that gnobot will fit more easily with northern hemisphere time preferences because it can play while I sleep :-). Quote:
Fair enough. If many of the entrants find playing a bot annoying, I'll be happy to withdraw Gnobby. On the other hand, this version of Gnobot is not available in the gameroom, so play should still be interesting. Quote:
Yes, I would hope to make at least a small update after each game to correct a weakness or two. This adaptation should help keep Gnobby interesting. Unfortunately it will also mean that some weeks it plays badly if I accidentally introduce a bug... |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Jul 28th, 2008, 3:23am This is great! Thanks Fritzlein for setting this up. I really prefer games with such a time control over postal games. So I definitely would like to join. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 5:53am on 07/27/08 at 20:52:49, omar wrote:
That's nice of you to offer, Omar, but I think it will be less hassle for now if 99of9 enters times logged in as himself, and I enter his name instead of GnoBot's into the scheduling tool. Quote:
It is my pleasure. You have been extremely generous to me and the Arimaa community as a whole. Since you refuse to let me donate money directly to support the Arimaa server, I have to find indirect ways to give back. But also there is a selfish motivation: if I am giving the prizes, I can make the rules whatever I want. :) Quote:
Of course this tournament is only to fill the gap in the off-season. I wouldn't want it to overlap with any of the official events even if the scheduling tool could do it. I'm even ambivalent about having it compete with the Postal Mixer; maybe a good rule of thumb would be to wait to restart the continuous tournament until the Postal Mixer is 120 days old. on 07/27/08 at 22:28:18, Janzert wrote:
Thanks for holding off Janzert. I share your fondness for events where humans and bots compete on an equal footing, but I also share your concern about diluting the tournament too far. How would it be if I add OpFor only when the number of human participants reaches ten? I expect the first round to be small, since I don't want to promote it too heavily until we know that the tools even work, but if everything runs smoothly, maybe Omar can add an announcement to the game room at some later date. on 07/28/08 at 02:24:36, 99of9 wrote:
Thrilling news. Active bot improvement in the off-season is a welcome development. :D I hope you don't mind that I seeded Gnobot low in advance of seeing the improvements... on 07/28/08 at 03:23:10, woh wrote:
Thanks for signing up! I'm glad to feel that this tournament addresses an unmet demand. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:08am on 07/28/08 at 05:53:51, Fritzlein wrote:
Not at all. Gnobot should be seeded at the very bottom unless we get some beginners in. Nevertheless, it's got a chance at some wins, so I think it will make a useful additional opponent in the bottom half of the draw. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:50am So is this meant as a replacement for the Player of the Month contest or not? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 7:27am on 07/28/08 at 06:50:22, aaaa wrote:
The continuous tournament is my baby. Omar can promote Arimaa however he sees fit. And so can you! IdahoEv used to offer a monthly botbashing challenge with a cash prize for whoever met his challenge most effectively. Since he let that contest lapse, there has been an unmet demand for botbashing competition. I'm not addressing that need, because I'm not as interested in it, but maybe you are. JDB has re-started his endgame puzzle posts gleaned from his tablebases. There was briefly a flurry of "Win in X" puzzles that Ururam Tururam and others composed for our edification and entertainment. Ron Weasley is contributing by moderating discussion for the Mob. And I'm sure there are yet other ways to make the game room more fun and interesting for everyone. Dive on in... (Not to say that you don't already contribute. Just playing games is a contribution. Setting a bot-bashing record is a contribution. Commenting on games is a contribution. Writing a bot is a contribution. Providing constructive feedback is a contribution. etc.) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Jul 28th, 2008, 7:58am on 07/28/08 at 05:53:51, Fritzlein wrote:
Sounds like a good threshold. I better decline having OpFor automatically added the first time though, just in case it lands on a week I'm tied up with work or some such. I'll keep an eye on the participation list or if you want to send me a pm when there are ten would be great. Then after OpFor has played once you can automatically add or remove as needed. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Jul 28th, 2008, 8:37am Thanks, Fritzlein, for setting up this tournament! I'm glad you're not penalizing intermittant participation. I'll probably be such a player since I often find it difficult to predict the times I'll be available to play. Have you given some thought on how to handle an odd number of players signing up? Of course byes are one possibility, but I have always found them a bit disappointing. Other possibilies could be: * Have an extra bot available to even out the participants, whenever needed. * Give players the option to play one or two games a week. (It seems less disappointing to have two games reduced to one, than one reduced to zero.) * Give ambivalent players the sign-up option of: "you can take me out if an odd number of players sign up". (In fact, I might like to do this option from time to time, since I'm often about "50-50" between playing a scheduled game and keeping my calendar more open.) EDIT: After I first sent this message, I noticed Janzert's post immediately above. Could OpFor be used to help even out the number of players? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 8:59am You are welcome! I'm having fun so far just planning. I hope the participants enjoy it as well once the games start. No, I hadn't given any thought to what to do about having an odd number of players. Thanks for raising the issue. It is indeed a bummer for a participant to be forced to take a bye. I have already considered allowing players to sign up for one or two games. One obstacle is that the scheduler, although it tries to have games at different times, will sometimes put two games at the same time out of necessity. What to do if those two games involve the same player? Also I'm a little worried about giving out prizes twice as fast. I would probably have to raise the point cost of the prizes to stay within my budget guesstimate. But in any case, I want things to run smoothly for a few rounds with one game per person before I head down the road of optional second games. If you or anyone wants to give me the flexibility to pair or not for a given round, the problem is solved right there. You would be doing me a favor to join on those terms. I would only need one "maybe" player per round, and if the tournament participation grows, it might not be unreasonable to hope I would always have one volunteer. But I don't want to force anyone to be a "maybe" any more than I want to force anyone to have a bye, so if nobody volunteers, I'm stuck. I guess the most reliable option is to have a standby bot. By this I don't mean GnoBot or OpFor unless they volunteer for a particular week. Being on standby gives the developer all the responsibility and half the fun. I want developers to feel welcome too. Maybe I can figure out how to have Arimaanator be the emergency fill-in, and operate it myself, so that nobody ever has to have a bye. Thanks for thinking this through on my behalf. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Adanac on Jul 28th, 2008, 9:37am Count me in. I should be able to play most, but not all, weeks during the summer & fall. And thanks for organizing Fritzlein! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 9:56am Thanks for joining, Adanac. Let's see if PMertens joins now just to take a shot at you. ;-) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by PMertens on Jul 28th, 2008, 11:31am I really would love the t-shirt ... Unfortunately Thursday will be the last day I play for a few month again ... family is back and they do not tolerate me playing alone ... guess I am back to building sandcastles for the summer ... Anyway I hope you guys will have tons of fun even without me ... I know it will be hard, but you will manage. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 11:58am We'll miss you, Paul, but then again you will miss the T-shirt, so it's fair. ;D |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 28th, 2008, 12:08pm What does the T-shirt have on it? "I've wasted my life with Arimaa and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 12:48pm Heheh. It actually says, "I can die happy now that I've beaten bot_xxxx with handicap yyyy." I'll customize it to your actual accomplishment free of charge. ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 28th, 2008, 1:04pm Oh, then reserve one for me with xxxx=^H^H^H^HFritzlein and yyyy=^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H, will ya? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 1:15pm Bring it on! But seriously, it will look something like this: http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/arimaa-tshirt/248216049 |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by mistre on Jul 28th, 2008, 1:36pm I will most likely join this, but I am awaiting Omar's response on the client version issue. BTW, how many points will it take for an autographed copy of your book? ;D |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 4:01pm It's good to hear you are probably in, mistre. As for the book, I'm afraid my writing has been lagging of late because I spend too much time on my postal games, and playing live, and hanging out in the chat room, and posting in the Forum, thinking about this tournament, etc. When (if ever) my book is available, autographed copies will be available only as prizes in this tournament. (Thanks for the idea!) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 28th, 2008, 4:37pm I'll tell you what, Fritzlein: If you can work it out with Omar so that I can win a free entry for the 2009 Arimaa Computer World Championship and don't have to deal with any registration issues, I'll be in your tournament. I'm sick and tired of playing bots anyway. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Jul 28th, 2008, 4:49pm you think your worth that much? if you win the whole thing you can have that i'm sure ;D |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Jul 28th, 2008, 4:57pm Please add me in too. :) Also, since my current preference is to play less often than once a week, I think I'll follow my own suggestion and volunteer to be a "maybe" player. That is, until I let you know otherwise, feel free to give me the week off if an odd number of players sign up. I also suspect that I'll take off many weeks on my own, so for those weeks the odd number problem may need to be handled some other way. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by jdb on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:07pm I will enter if something like the following is allowed. Would it be OK if the two players that are matched are allowed to negotiate a mutually agreeable time? The tournament scheduler is great for the WC tournament, but in the summer I can't possibly be available for half of the time slots. Plus playing a WC game at 2am is OK, but not for a regular weekly game. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:51pm on 07/28/08 at 16:37:19, aaaa wrote:
I can't take care of all the Computer Championship registration issues for you, especially not qualifying to play in the first place. Futhermore it's specifically up to Omar whether he wants to allow anonymous developers. However, if you accumulate 1000 points in my tournament, I'll let you redeem those points for the $10 entry fee, assuming you can work out all the other issues with Omar. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:52pm on 07/28/08 at 16:57:11, ChrisB wrote:
You're in. Thanks for playing and for volunteering to take a bye if necessary. Don't hesitate to take weeks off; I'm sure I can work out something for the byes if necessary on those weeks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:58pm on 07/28/08 at 18:07:30, jdb wrote:
That is absolutely fine. If the two players can agree to a time, I will always override the time assigned by the scheduler. There are lots of North Americans signing up, so your odds are good. However, the scheduler will always be the default in case the players can't agree to a time, and that may force you to forfeit a game from time to time. I understand what the summer means to farmers, so I won't be offended in any way if you attempt to play and occasionally have to forfeit. As you say, this is not the World Championship. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Jul 28th, 2008, 10:04pm on 07/28/08 at 18:51:01, Fritzlein wrote:
Fine by me. So, am I correct in estimating that my pairing flight is 2.4? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 10:16pm on 07/28/08 at 22:04:45, aaaa wrote:
Ahead of ChrisB and camelback? Nah, I have you at 1.8. You'll have a chance next week to prove I am underrating you! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Jul 29th, 2008, 2:02am Hey, great idea Karl ! It's awesome that the community has a tourney running continuously, we can hope that the yearly boom corresponding to WC will last all year long now :) I'm going to London, but I'll enter the tournament as soon as I'm back, around mid-august. You guys have fun ! Jean |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by arimaa_master on Jul 29th, 2008, 2:14am Thanks Karl for organizing and funding this tournament. Unfortunatelly I don´t know when I will be able to join coz usually I don´t have enough time for playing arimaa in one chunk (lets say 2 hours for one game). I hope I will have more time in a few weeks and join then. But I will be watching this thread very closely for results anyway. I bet that this will be very enjoying tournament. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by RonWeasley on Jul 29th, 2008, 3:51am This is a great idea and Thanx to Fritzlein for the effort in organizing this. I doubt I can play, my usual lameness with interactive games, but maybe this fall I can put in a surprise guest appearance. I will try to watch as many games as possible. I hope the weekly schedule gets posted to help us spectators. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Jul 29th, 2008, 7:27am I've added a page to make it easier for players to register and unregister from the tournament. http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/ct/ Also announced it in the gameroom. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 29th, 2008, 7:31am Thanks Omar! Although you left out Tuks... I really, really hope the first round runs smoothly now that you have officially announced it. I was thinking maybe we would just test it out with the early adopters. On the other hand, the more people sign up, the better we can expect the games to be (i.e. no blowouts). [EDIT] Wow, that got used in a hurry. Welcome Arimabuff! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Jul 29th, 2008, 7:49am on 07/29/08 at 07:31:41, Fritzlein wrote:
How long before the starting of a game, will we be notified? Do we get an email or do we have to check the room periodically? If there is an emergency that prevents us from playing a game how is it dealt with and what can we do about it? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 29th, 2008, 8:04am There will be no automatic e-mails, so the players will have to check the game room for their scheduled times. Sorry about that! I was thinking of putting up the pairings in this thread on Sunday midnight GMT, and scheduling the games on Monday midnight GMT. However, it may work out better if I do both the pairings and the scheduling on Sunday night. That will give people more time to log in to find out their scheduled game time, and will also give people more time to reschedule with each other if they can find a better time. What do folks think about doing both pairing and scheduling Sunday night, instead of pairing Sunday and scheduling Monday? If an emergency prevents you from playing, you will forfeit. However, if you can get your opponent to agree to replay the game by Sunday afternoon, and you both put in the comments of the game that it should count as your continuous tournament game for the week, then I'll use that result instead of the forfeit. This is a participation tournament, not the World Championship, so in general I'm going to lean in the direction of whatever allows participation. But the scheduler remains the default tool, and your opponent is under no obligation to reschedule the game and/or replay it in case of emergency or computer crash or network outage, etc. There will be forfeits, and players will lose points as a result. Don't worry, though, it's only points! This tournament has a 100% satisfaction guarantee, or your entry fee will be refunded in full. ;-) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Jul 29th, 2008, 8:25am Thanks for your welcome Karl, btw. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Jul 29th, 2008, 8:54am i have a problem... next week when the tournament starts, i am flying back to Germany (4, arrive on the 5) but in the schedule its kind of hard to guess what time ill be available (because its based on my present time, not the German time zone. I'll Probably be get online on a later weekday (considering jet lag and time difference) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 29th, 2008, 10:40am In the upper left hand of the game room, there should be a dropdown box where you can change "Your Local Time" to "Europe: Paris". Unfortunately that seems to have no effect on the appearance of the scheduler. :( Maybe we can ask Omar to change that. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Jul 29th, 2008, 5:16pm on 07/29/08 at 08:04:56, Fritzlein wrote:
Doing both on Sunday works a bit better for me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Jul 29th, 2008, 8:16pm on 07/29/08 at 08:04:56, Fritzlein wrote:
Gnobot doesn't mind :-). |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Jul 30th, 2008, 12:48am on 07/29/08 at 08:04:56, Fritzlein wrote:
Does this mean that a player who can't connect one sunday has to forfeit for that week's game ? Or do you expect many later mutual agreement schedulings ? Basically, what is sunday night for you (say, 8pm) is sunday early morning in Europe (3am in Paris for instance), so I don't expect that european players will be able to schedule their game this way. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Jul 30th, 2008, 2:42am on 07/30/08 at 00:48:32, chessandgo wrote:
No, you can lay out your availability any time in the week before. The only thing is you might not have time to adapt it once you know who your opponent is. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 30th, 2008, 1:50pm Welcome hamzahq and ArifSyed! ...and welcome JDB! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Adanac on Jul 30th, 2008, 2:37pm I'm off to a rough start...I need a bye in round 1 :( |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 30th, 2008, 3:40pm No problem, Adanac. I won't pair you in the first round. Thanks for the advance notice. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Jul 30th, 2008, 4:19pm on 07/28/08 at 07:58:16, Janzert wrote:
Looks like we're past ten! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Jul 30th, 2008, 5:06pm on 07/30/08 at 16:19:34, 99of9 wrote:
Yes! Very nice. I'll have to beg off for the next week at least though as I'll be out of town on business and don't want to chance leaving opfor unattended on its first try. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 31st, 2008, 6:08am Welcome Aamir! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Jul 31st, 2008, 10:06am on 07/30/08 at 02:42:41, 99of9 wrote:
Oh thanks, my bad :) I should have known a proposal of Karl's could not have been flawed ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 31st, 2008, 10:10am The vote is 1 to 0 with 1 abstention, so I will do both the pairing and the scheduling on Sunday evening my local time. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Jul 31st, 2008, 4:16pm Just a thought, since I believe there are people that have never participated in a tournament before, does everyone know how to schedule the times that will work the best for them? Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 31st, 2008, 6:33pm Welcome soldier! Janzert, the players without previous tournament experience are BilalQ and hamzahq (brothers who can help each other and are hopefully informed by their Syed relatives), Arimaabuff, aaaa, and Tuks (very engaged and reading the forum). I expect everyone will have proper times in the scheduler come Sunday. If not, however, we'll deal with whatever comes the best we can. :) ... and welcome naveed! ... and welcome iamanigeeit! ... and welcome megamau! ... and welcome mistre! (I'm going to run out of exclamation points...) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Aug 4th, 2008, 6:03pm Since I will be asleep for the start of Gnobby's first game, I'd better make sure of how a bot should enter a tournament game. My first thought was to run the following command every 30s around the official start time: bot play soldier But if he never enters the game, neither will Gnobot, so it will look like both players forfeited. Also if he opens other tables, Gnobot will join the wrong one. What do you recommend Omar? Or does anyone else know the protocol here? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 4th, 2008, 6:23pm Can you join by game number (98382)? I'm glad you got a time when your laptop was free. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Aug 4th, 2008, 7:45pm Yep as Fritzlein suggests a command of "bot play 98382" should work to start in the correct game. I suppose you could either have this scheduled to run at the appropriate time or set it up to keep trying in intervals until it succeeds in joining. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 4th, 2008, 8:06pm 99of9, if you want to test your script, I can schedule a game between GnoBot and yourself. Just name a time (or times) and I will set up a game (or games) between the two of you. The scheduler doesn't allow me to set up unrated games, but I assume that they don't count if aborted in the first two moves, just like regular games. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Aug 4th, 2008, 10:06pm Thanks Janzert for providing the command to use to start the bot. I would recommend setting up a task which issues this command at game time. That's what I do for the bot tournament :-) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Aug 4th, 2008, 11:29pm Ok thanks for the help. Don't worry about setting up a rigorous test Fritz, I can test it myself using any old game. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Soter on Aug 5th, 2008, 2:03am This tournament looks like a dream come true. I'm planning to join soon ( 1 - 2 weeks from now ) ... |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 5th, 2008, 8:46am on 08/04/08 at 23:29:18, 99of9 wrote:
Great, I hope it works smoothly and you get a good night's sleep. on 08/05/08 at 02:03:46, Soter wrote:
Thanks! I hope the first round isn't marred by any technical difficulties that change your mind. I'm looking forward to your participation. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 5th, 2008, 10:02am It's a minor point, but I hope the color balancing issue is finally adequately addressed for once. Here's a thorough, proposed order of priorities (only taking the history of the tournament itself into account):
|
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 5th, 2008, 10:18am Thanks for thinking that through, aaaa. By "the historical color difference", do you mean a percentage or an absolute number? Let's say I have played twenty rounds, twelve times as Gold, while you have played three rounds, all of them as Gold. Percentage-wise, I should get Gold in our game since I have had it 60% to your 100%, but according to absolute difference, you should get Gold because I am +4 with Gold and you are only +3. Also, are you proposing this list of priorities as absolute? For example, lets say we each have played twenty-one rounds, and I have been Gold ten times while you have been eleven times, and we are paired against each other. Does the first priority mean that I get Gold, even if we have played each other in three previous rounds and I was Gold in all of those games too? Finally, in building our color history, do we count the colors assigned in forfeited games, or only in games actually played? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 5th, 2008, 10:55am on 08/05/08 at 10:18:19, Fritzlein wrote:
Absolute difference, on account of the fact that you would then be the one needing more games going one way to get back to parity. Quote:
Yes, because the first rule best nullifies any possibly existing advantage of playing one color over the other, while the second rule only does so to a more limited extent and like the others exists more to add variety of play. Quote:
If they count like wins and affect future pairings as such, it would be awkward philosophically to treat them differently in that respect. It could also hypothetically raise issues of fairness with respect to other players. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 5th, 2008, 12:01pm on 08/05/08 at 10:55:29, aaaa wrote:
Actually, I was going to have forfeits affect only the prize points of the two players involved and not have them affect the pairing flight. If you win by forfeit, you won't be moved up the ladder, and similarly if you lose by forfeit you won't be moved down. However, even within that framework I could say that forfeited games do count for color and for repeat opponents. [EDIT] On second thought, I agree with you that forfeit games should be treated like all others in respect to pairing as well as points. I will write your suggestions into the rules. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by mistre on Aug 5th, 2008, 12:55pm on 08/05/08 at 12:01:00, Fritzlein wrote:
What made you change your mind, easier implementation or something else? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 5th, 2008, 1:03pm Yeah, conceptual simplicity. But I'm still wavering if you have a counter-argument. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 7th, 2008, 4:32pm Good luck to camelback and ChrisB in the very first match of the tournament. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by mistre on Aug 7th, 2008, 4:53pm on 08/05/08 at 13:03:54, Fritzlein wrote:
No counter-argument. I say just go with simplicity. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Elmo on Aug 7th, 2008, 10:19pm I'm just posting to say I witnessed ChrisB sit at the table for his game with camelback for 15+ minutes beyond the scheduled start time. (Fritz went to bed early, so I'm on late night duty.) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 8th, 2008, 12:15am Unfortunately, camelback missed his game against ChrisB and now it's in sort of a zombie state, still considered live. Commiserations to Fritzlein for seeing his tournament start out like this. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Aug 8th, 2008, 12:37am Sorry you missed the game, camelback. If we could make it up that would be great. Unfortunately, I think I'll only be available late at night the rest of this week. Thanks, aaaa, for the offer of a substitute game. Unfortunately, by that time I was starting to doze off so I opted to decline. Looking forward to playing you soon though - very likely in this tournament, since our ratings are close. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by camelback on Aug 8th, 2008, 4:50am I apologize, I'm totally deceived by the timezone. In the game schedule it said the game is on 6:00 am YLT. Well, Now it is 5:45 am pacific time and I see the game is gone. I'm very sorry for your wait. I should have known this and double checked again. I'll try to make up the game before the end of weekend if I find you. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 8th, 2008, 5:22am on 08/08/08 at 00:37:00, ChrisB wrote:
Oh, but that wasn't one at all. Like I explained (and immediately apologized for) in the invite itself, I abused the feature as a private messaging substitute so as to inquire about your game. I believe this use is employed by more. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 8th, 2008, 6:03am on 08/08/08 at 04:50:33, camelback wrote:
That's too bad about the time zone confusion. :( The game was scheduled for 3:00 a.m. Pacific time, so I am guessing that the confusion was already present in the scheduler. I'll bet you didn't select three in the morning as one of your available times, did you? If I had known you were on the coast, I would have immediately posted that something looked fishy about the time that the scheduler produced. When you are in the main game room, does the time in the upper left corner accurately reflect your local time? The game room is supposed to pick it up from your computer clock. Does your computer clock accurately reflect the local time? I remember 99of9 had some serious time-zone weirdness messing up the scheduler in past World Championships. Maybe he and Omar can help us sort this out. Would you like to try again to play in Round 2, camelback, in spite of being unfairly duped by the scheduler in Round 1? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 8th, 2008, 7:54am cant the game they play now be the substitution? im watching it now ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 8th, 2008, 8:21am If we are to allow substitutions, it would be better then if the time control in use in the tournament would also be normally available. They did pick the one available that matched the most closely, but it still differed by starting reserve. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 8th, 2008, 8:23am i cant see that effecting the game play enough to matter |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 8th, 2008, 8:42am Wow, camelback & ChrisB, thanks for going the extra mile to replay the game. Great sportsmanship, ChrisB, to put your forfeit win on the line. That's definitely not required, but you then guys produced a great game to get this tournament off to a good start. Omar, can you change the championship time control that is available in the game room to have a five-minute starting reserve? Minor detail, but hopefully trivial to fix as well. In another minor detail, I have changed the rules to say that only the forfeit winner has to say that the replacement game should count; I'll assume that the forfeit loser would prefer the replacement game no matter what. ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 8th, 2008, 8:54am hey fritz, did you change it so that the loser only gets .8 of the old flight without score, if so, i agree that that is fairer |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Aug 8th, 2008, 8:56am on 08/08/08 at 08:42:44, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes, it's great that we got the game in without much delay. It was an exciting game. I'm all for counting it. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 8th, 2008, 8:59am on 08/08/08 at 08:54:21, Tuks wrote:
I didn't change it; the rule was just not clearly explained. I mean that a win is worth 1, a loss worth 0, so the new flight is .8 times old flight plus that score (not plus the prize points score). I will try to clarify the explanation. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by camelback on Aug 8th, 2008, 9:07am ChrisB, I greatly appreciate your invite and thanks for giving me the oppurtunity. I'm glad our game is still the first game of the tourney :D on 08/08/08 at 06:03:15, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes Fritz, I did select 3am local time on Friday, since I had to leave out all the slots in weekends. on 08/08/08 at 06:03:15, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes, It shows the correct time. I'm having a bookmark to check the game schedule http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/watchgames.cgi Problem is this shows up correctly only when I login to gameroom otherwise times are in GMT. I haven't checked the time from gameroom that is completely my mistake :( on 08/08/08 at 06:03:15, Fritzlein wrote:
Thanks Fritz, yep I'll be up for Round 2. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Aug 8th, 2008, 5:34pm when i was in my game with imanigeeit my window showed no move made by my opponent and his reserve time kept ticking away. After the 4 minute required time limit was over i waited and nothing happened for 2 minutes afterward. That's when i told my brother to check on his computer about what was happening. So that's when i saw that i had lost. So now i'm wondering will this be counted as a loss or is there a way we can resume the game or start it over. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Aug 8th, 2008, 5:44pm hey fritzlen while i was wacthing my brothers game i saw that the opponents time ran out but nothing happened so my brother asked me to check and i saw he lost and i think this should not be counted as a loss but be rescheduled for a new game or if ther is a way to resume the game. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Aug 8th, 2008, 6:00pm on 08/08/08 at 06:03:15, Fritzlein wrote:
My problem was because of an overflow error in really large timezones (like Sydney). Omar fixed the bug last year, so it is unlikely to affect anyone again. Camelback's explanation seems more likely - if you don't log in when checking game times, it gives you the times according to the server instead of YLT. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 8th, 2008, 8:01pm I'm sorry, BilalQ, but the game counts even though you lost due to a technical problem rather than losing over the board. I want this tournament to have a provision for continuing interrupted games if both players want to. I feel strongly about this because in the 2007 World Championship, I won one game against chessandgo because he timed out because of his connection. I didn't want to win that way, and I'm glad he won the World Championship anyway. On the other hand, I didn't want then (and don't want now) for such games to start from scratch. The whole game shouldn't just be thrown out. One problem with meeting my desire to continue a game is that the gameroom has no way to start from a given position. To reach the place the game was interrupted, the two players have to start from the beginning and replay all the moves they already played. Not only is this a bother, but the players will each end up with huge time reserves, so they should play at the old 60-second time control of "Move in 1 min" which caps the maximum reserve. The other problem is that the player who timed out has a long time to consider his or her move. This is an unfair disadvantage to give to the player who is already being sporting enough to continue a won game. Therefore I rule that the player who won the interrupted game on time can change his or her last move in the continuation. Thus all moves need to be replayed in the continuation except the last move of the interrupted game, and it will be the player who had before won on time who gets to make the first choice. In this particular case it is probably all moot, because iamanigeeit may have neither the time nor the desire to continue the game. Indeed, it is such a hassle to get back to the interrupted position, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody ever did it for the life of the continuous tournament. I just want the rule to allow the possibility of a continuation so that in case there is a will, there is a way. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Aug 9th, 2008, 6:25am on 08/08/08 at 17:44:01, BilalQ wrote:
Sometimes one gets disconnected from a game without being given notice. The best way to check whether you're still in is to try to chat ; if your sentence does not appear, you know you have to reload the game (your opponent probably played his move, but it did not reach you). I hope you don't get many more problems during games. Jean |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 9th, 2008, 8:02am Looks like we're still waiting for the first flawlessly proceeding game of the tournament. I hope Fritzlein hasn't been busy pulling the hair out of his head in the mean time (just kidding). |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Aug 9th, 2008, 8:17pm Karl I changed the game time for Aamir and Hamza to 10am; see the chat room for discussion. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 9th, 2008, 8:47pm Thanks for changing the time, Omar. I didn't want you to get sucked into being the TD any more than necessary, but since you volunteered... ;-) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Aug 10th, 2008, 3:38am Hi Fritzlein, I have a lot of activities planned for the upcoming week, so will need a bye for Round 2. Thanks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Aug 10th, 2008, 6:25am on 08/10/08 at 03:38:39, ChrisB wrote:
Be sure to "unregister" yourself from the players list. http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/ct/ click on 'Register to play' and you should see a button to unregister, since you are already registered. When you want to play again be sure to register again. This way Karl can just use the players on the list to do the pairing. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 10th, 2008, 8:00am I am going to rule that ArifSyed's loss to Arimabuff in Round 1 was not a forfeit, but rather a time loss due to technical difficulties on move zero. There were witnesses that ArifSyed did show up on time, so I will not impose the forfeit penalty. Hopefully Round 2 will not be as plagued by games that don't get to finish over the board! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Aug 10th, 2008, 8:32am on 08/10/08 at 06:25:27, omar wrote:
Done. Thanks, Omar, for the tip! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by mistre on Aug 10th, 2008, 9:32am I have to apologize to Naveed and anyone else looking forward to our match today, but I will have to forfeit because I am dealing with a family illness. I went ahead and unregistered from the tournament because my schedule is just too tight right now and it would be unfair to others if I have to keep withdrawing. Maybe sometime in the distant future I can join something like this, but for now I will stick to postal games. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 10th, 2008, 10:43am I hope your family member is well soon, mistre. I tried to design the tournament for people to join and drop at any time, and now we get a chance to see how well that works! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:18am on 08/10/08 at 10:43:33, Fritzlein wrote:
Karl, is there a scoreboard with the current results of the tournament? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:29am on 08/10/08 at 11:18:04, Arimabuff wrote:
You mean something other than anything what's in the second post of this thread (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?action=display;board=talk;num=1217203410;start=0#1)? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:44am on 08/10/08 at 11:29:41, aaaa wrote:
Thanks, I failed to notice it at first read. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 10th, 2008, 1:35pm on 08/08/08 at 09:07:10, camelback wrote:
Yet I now see you listed as being inactive then. Is that correct, Fritzlein? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 10th, 2008, 3:36pm Yes, camelback wrote me saying he would like to withdraw for a few weeks, and since that was written 48 hours later than what you are quoting, I have to go with it. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 10th, 2008, 5:28pm Oh dear, just after I said I would finally lay off the bots for having turned into fool's gold with respect to me getting better versus humans, I get to play... GnoBot. :-/ If there's going to be a vacancy in this week, I'll gladly fill it if it's OK with 99of9. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Aug 10th, 2008, 9:30pm on 08/10/08 at 17:28:08, aaaa wrote:
I'm not fussed. If two humans would prefer to play one another, Gnobot can sit this one out. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 10th, 2008, 10:22pm I'm not sure I understand you, aaaa. There are 14 entrants and 7 games. If GnoBot sits out, then who will you play? Or you mean you would prefer not to play this round at all rather than play GnoBot? Since 99of9 has no objection, it's fine with me if you both sit out this round. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:47pm Oh, I assumed from aaaa's post that there was an uneven number of players in this round. If there are an even number, it seems silly for both aaaa and Gnobot to sit out. After all, you'll both still have similar scores next round, so you'd be paired then!! At least if you play, you won't have to play Gnobot again for at least another 5 rounds. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 11th, 2008, 5:05am I meant that if someone were to drop out this week, I would hope to play the remaining opponent in an emergency replacement game instead of (or perhaps even in addition to) the one against GnoBot. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Adanac on Aug 11th, 2008, 7:00am Am I not playing in round 2? ??? I only needed a bye in round 1 and I did update my preferred times for the current round. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 11th, 2008, 7:19am hmm, how could we change that, maybe you should play aaaa instead of gnobot but thats rather an uneven match |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 11th, 2008, 7:20am I'm sorry, Adanac. I can't see which players have updated their times. I was expecting another message that you would join Round 2 if that was your intent. You were assuming that you were in for Round 2 unless you sent me another message that you would sit out again? Anyway, how would you feel about a game against aaaa? :-) I'll put you in for Round 3. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 11th, 2008, 7:31am Adanac? Don't you think the strength difference is just a teensy-weensy bit too much here? Is it too late to do the whole rescheduling over and let me play - if I get this right - hamzahq instead? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Aug 11th, 2008, 8:37am Instead of rescheduling the whole round I volunteer to play Adanac. aaaa can play my current opponent iamanigeeit. Since this this tournament is still very new and there was a misunderstanding about Adanac wanting to join this round or not I think we can allow this one time ad hoc solution. But only if Fritzlein agrees on it as well as anyone involved, that is Adanac, aaaa, GnoBot and iamanigeeit. We have to make sure that iamanigeeit is aware that his game is rescheduled. If possible we should only change his opponent and keep the same time slot. We don't want him to end up with a forfeit because of this rescheduling. I think this is less painful than rescheduling the whole round and the strength mismatches are smaller than the one between Adanac and aaaa. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 11th, 2008, 10:24am Yes, aaaa, it is to late to redo the entire pairing and scheduling for the round. I'm not sure you were around for the 2007 World Championship, but I learned a lesson from Omar very obligingly agreeing to reschedule games. One player looked at the originally posted time and showed up at that time instead of at the changed time. It wasn't fair to give a forfeit on the basis of such confusion, so then Omar had to re-reschedule the unplayed game, and the two players involved had trouble finding a mutually agreeable time even in the next week, so the whole tournament was delayed by two weeks. Everyone suffered. I apologize to Adanac that I didn't understand that he would like to play in Round 2, but I am not going to try to make it right in a way that will potentially inconvenience thirteen other players who might already have checked their game times for this week. I don't want to fix my mistake in a way that will cause even more problems. As for your pairing to GnoBot, aaaa, it was not a mistake, and my agreeing to change it relies entirely on the consent and goodwill of all the other players involved. I will not impose a change on any of the other players, but if I am presented with a complete solution that has the consent of everyone affected, I will be happy to implement it. Woh, your offer is very kind. I would do exactly as you suggest if you could get Adanac, aaaa, 99of9, and iamanigeeit all to agree to it, and give me acceptable game times for the Adanac-woh and iamanigeeit-aaaa matches. I don't expect that the conditions can be arranged and agreed to fast enough in practice to pull it off, but it seems a fine solution if you can swing it. The best fix that I can think of for my misunderstanding with Adanac is to join this round myself and play Adanac, while the other seven pairings stay the same. Indeed, if I had known that Adanac had wanted to play, that's probably how I would have solved the odd-number of players problem in the first place. As it turns out, all the other pairings would have been exactly as they are now, with Adanac and I paired on board 1. How about it Adanac; are you up for a game? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Adanac on Aug 11th, 2008, 10:28am on 08/11/08 at 10:24:51, Fritzlein wrote:
Of course :) Saturday or Sunday morning or early afternoon works best for me. If you schedule a time, I'll be there! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by nbarriga on Aug 11th, 2008, 11:30am I registered to the continous tournament, but then remmebered I'm already too late for this week, and next week I'm travelling. Anyway I suppose that if I don't select times I don't get paired, right? To clarify: please ignore my registration to the tournament. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 11th, 2008, 11:51am OK, I have scheduled Adanac vs. Fritzlein for Sunday afternoon. Problem solved. Aaaa, I approve of your resolution to play more humans. It was a major turning point in my career when I stopped playing bots. Before then I was always seeking the safety of the familiar bots, and that made my game stale, my rating inflated, and my playing strength weaker than it could have been. Having the courage to face the unpredictable and uncontrollable human opponents (especially PMertens :P) all the time as opposed to only on special occasions was a huge step for me. But I do still make room for an occasional bot game, including defending the 2007 Arimaa Challenge, and playing OpFor in the qualifying for the 2008 Arimaa Challenge, and playing the improved OpFor in the Postal Mixer. I'm actually curious about how bots are changing over time and/or improving just due to faster hardware. I think I have gained rather lost from having a small percentage of games against bots still in my life. I sincerely believe that it will not do too much damage to your new-found resolution if you play bots only in a tournament setting. If you play, say, 100 games against humans in the next year, then 10 serious games against bots will probably sharpen your skills, and will not train you to rely on the anti-bot techniques and triggers necessary to achieve bot-bashing records. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 11th, 2008, 12:05pm on 08/11/08 at 11:30:10, nbarriga wrote:
Nope. If you don't select times, then your opponent's preferences are used exclusively, or in conjunction with previous preferences you entered if you have ever played in a tournament before. Quote:
Thank you very much for clarifying. I will not pair you in Round 3. Are you sure that you will play in Round 4, or should I wait for another message to clarify that? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Aug 11th, 2008, 12:35pm on 08/11/08 at 10:24:51, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes, this is a far better solution. Now I see that even the minimal rescheduling as I proposed could cause too many problems. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by nbarriga on Aug 11th, 2008, 1:34pm Just take me out until I send a message stating that I want to participate. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 11th, 2008, 4:06pm OK, I'll play GnoBot; it's just too bad I will have to switch back to my "anti-bot mindset" for it, as my "general game" is definitely not strong enough to get the job done. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 11th, 2008, 7:52pm Excellent, aaaa. Even if you don't learn anything (and you might), you can still be generous and teach 99of9 something. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by camelback on Aug 11th, 2008, 9:12pm on 08/10/08 at 13:35:41, aaaa wrote:
Sorry for contradicting statements :( I realized late that there would be many activities in weekdays too, since my parents are here for a month. I'll be available from Sept 8th or before. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 12th, 2008, 11:37am Woh has generously coded up a tool to help me maintain the tournament status page. You can see the see the output at the URL http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/ct/status/ which I will update periodically. In fact, it is so easy to update now, I will surely keep more current than I otherwise would have. I love the Arimaa community for exactly this sort of thing. Yes, it is going to be great when the boxed sets hit the stores and hundreds of thousands of people start playing Arimaa, but we won't have this great feeling of everyone knowing everyone and being willing to help out. Thank you, woh! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Aug 12th, 2008, 12:09pm on 08/12/08 at 11:37:28, Fritzlein wrote:
Nice job Woh! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 12th, 2008, 12:26pm I think the pairing flight should be replaced by a proper rating system, for the former is proving to be too unstable for the purpose of getting balanced matches. Already we have seen the phenomenon that players with similar strengths with one winning from a weaker player and the other losing to a stronger one subsequently shoot past each other and end up still not playing each other. The fact that recent pairings are excluded would not necessarily stop that from happening for a few more rounds as well. This is the fault of the fact that there's always one-fifth of the entire possible range at stake, an untenable construction to me. Another advantage of experimenting with a rating system here would be that it would provide priceless data with respect to discussions involving changes to the real one. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:06pm Yes, I think it probably is too unstable. I want the order of players to mix up every round, but probably not as much as it mixed up after the first round. But if my goal is greater stability, can't I get it by simply changing the factor of .8 to .9? (We would also have to double all existing flight numbers to keep the scale the same.) As for experimenting with ratings, you can use the game results in any way you like. Playing with these results might indeed provide insight in how to design a good rating system, and I quite understand the attraction of fooling around with ratings systems. I've done a fair bit of that when my focus was accurate estimation of player strength. It's an interesting topic and time well spent. But I'm trying to run a tournament here, so I repeat my question: How will injecting a rating system into the tournament make it a better tournament? The purpose of this tournament, by the way, is not to determine who is best, never mind to create a complete, accurate ordering from best to worst. If you come up with a system that creates such an ordering, it will be a fine contribution to the community, but it isn't the contribution I am trying to make at present. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by mistre on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:21pm What happened in the Arimabuff vs ArifSyed match in Round 1? I can't find a record of it. If Arif did not play the game, he should have -100 pts like myself. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:23pm on 08/12/08 at 13:06:12, Fritzlein wrote:
Karl, one thing that you should keep in mind is that with only a dozen players or so, each playing one game a week (if that), it'll take years before the Law of large numbers starts playing its stabilizing role. No matter how accurate and well thought out, any rating system is bound to be highly unstable until a considerable amount of time has elapsed. I'd rather you do the pairing based on your personal estimate than a system which will more often than not generate outrageously absurd pairings given what I've said above. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:29pm on 08/12/08 at 13:21:12, mistre wrote:
There is a record of it; you can see it by listing my latest games (or ArifSyed's). Evidently, Arif did try and play the game but for unknown reasons failed to do so. That's the reason why Karl decided to give him a break. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:30pm on 08/12/08 at 13:06:12, Fritzlein wrote:
I'd support such a change immediately after this round. I already count three (somewhat) lopsided games here. Quote:
I don't see how the aim behind a rating system is running counter to what you're trying to achieve. In order to get balanced games, you'd need to accurately assess a player's strength and that's exactly what a rating system is for. In fact what you have now is also a rating system of some sort, so I don't see what the big deal is about trying to improve it. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 12th, 2008, 3:57pm on 08/12/08 at 13:21:12, mistre wrote:
Hmmm, I guess I can't really know the difference between deciding not to play a game (for good reasons or bad) and trying to play the game but being unable to. What I do know was that ArifSyed was actually in the gameroom at the time (for which we have several witnesses) and that he initiated a chat with Omar (after he had already forfeited) saying he couldn't find the game. I suppose that any ruling I make is open to charges of either unfairness or abuse. Perhaps I should say that at least 10 moves of a game must be played for it to count as a time loss rather than a forfeit. It's almost as lame for an opponent to get a mere 5 moves as to get no game. But under that rule chessandgo's time loss against me in the 2007 World Championship would have be penalized as a forfeit, and I am quite sure he was ready and willing to play. Conversely if I say that people just have to show up to avoid forfeiting, then some abuse is possible in that people who don't want to play can show up and pretend to have connection difficulties, and save 100 points for a few minutes of troubles. If it appears that such abuse is actually taking place, I will change my rules. I want to be fair to people with connection troubles, but I don't want people to disrespect their opponents and leave them hanging. So in my mind it is all about whether the non-play was due to a non-show or due to a technical issue, and in ArifSyed's case I will give him the benefit of the doubt, this time. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 12th, 2008, 3:58pm on 08/12/08 at 13:30:05, aaaa wrote:
A rating system does not run counter to what I am trying to achieve. I never said it did. You can design a rating system on the basis of tournament game results without interfering with my project in any way. But if I fix the stability problem by putting a .9 where there is now a .8, what more does a rating system have to offer? I am definitely going to be pairing people who are more than 200 points apart anyway, of necessity to avoid repeat opponents. So measurement of ability within more accuracy than, say, plus or minus 50 points is irrelevant. Futhermore, I would like people to be able to "earn" mismatches. If Tuks gets hot and wins four in a row, then maybe he should get a shot at the top players, even if any realistic rating system would have only changed his estimated rating from 1750 to 1820 or something like that. The tournament is about fun. I think pairings that mix it up somewhat (not too much) actually add to the fun. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 14th, 2008, 2:22am How about this: I changed all the Flight numbers into percentiles of win (82%(4.1) for Adanac and 58%(2.9) for Omar, and so on) So if the two players who play have even rating(extremely unlikely) then the winner is awarded 5 and the loser -5 in percentiles. x = the percentile difference 5-(10x) = winner HIGHER LOWER +5 = Winner -5 = loser WIN WIN -5-(10x) = Loser Although as you said, there are few people and when you want the players to play a variety of other players then the rating system doesn't really affect anything. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 14th, 2008, 1:49pm Let me see if I understand you, Tuks. You are saying that if 60 beats 60 the winner ends up at 65 and the loser ends up at 55. If 70 beats 60, the winner ends up at 74 and the loser at 56. If 60 beats 70, the winner ends up at 66 and the loser ends up at 64. Is that right? It's a zero-sum game, sort of like Elo ratings, except with a rectangular distribution rather than a logistic distribution. I guess that what I am doing, even if I change the multiplicative factor to 0.9, is not zero-sum. My system will have a tendency to move everyone towards the center. However, it does have the advantage of being idiot simple. I'd like to try it a few rounds and see how it works. If my pairing flight issues are spoiling the fun, then I will be happy to look at a replacement. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 15th, 2008, 2:51am your right, i haven't really made any contact with how rating systems work so im not surprised when mine turns out to be a simpler version of an already worldwide rating system. just like the .9 proposal, this rating decreases the extreme changes so might as well try yours out |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 15th, 2008, 5:46am Woh has done some automated tournament simulations. Maybe he is too modest to post the results here, so I have to brag for him. The test results are that changing the pairing flight factor from 0.8 to 0.9 will reduce the number of mismatches, but there will still be quite a few, in part because I am insisting that there be no repeat pairing for five rounds. With a tournament of only 20 players (and in fact we only have 16 this round) the rule to avoid repeat pairings is very disruptive of even matches. Anyway, woh's results encourage me to try it out with the 0.9 formula for at least a few rounds. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 15th, 2008, 6:49am on 07/27/08 at 16:03:30, Fritzlein wrote:
on 08/15/08 at 05:46:12, Fritzlein wrote:
Can you be unambiguous here? For each player what is the largest number of rounds in a row for which there is a guarantee no opponent would occur more than once in it? The former quote implies six, while if I try to interpret the second one, I come up with five. As I already said in the chatroom, my preference would be for the number to be an even one so as to balance the number of stronger and weaker players one who isn't close to either end of the scale gets to play against. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 15th, 2008, 7:52am Thanks for pointing out the ambiguity. What I mean is that there must be at least five different opponents that each player cycles through. The even/odd point is good one, but let's see if it arises in practice before changing anything. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Aug 15th, 2008, 8:28am on 08/15/08 at 07:52:30, Fritzlein wrote:
I doubt that you'll be able to do that systematically for each player. As some point, you'll be forced to break that rule and make someone play against a player he'd played against less than four games before. So maybe you should just list it as something that you will strive to do when possible. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Aug 15th, 2008, 9:03am Since the first quote comes from the rules post that is how I devised the status page. The 5 previous rounds will be included in the cross table so it's 'easy' for Fritzlein to find unique pairings for the next round. If the 5 previous rounds are taken into account for the next round each player will have different opponents for at least 6 rounds. It's not a big problem, the number of rounds included in the cross table can easily be changed. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Aug 15th, 2008, 9:11am on 08/15/08 at 08:28:23, Arimabuff wrote:
It's not a problem. In my simulation with 20 players over 30 rounds each player could be paired with someone he hasn't played the previous 5 rounds. on 08/15/08 at 08:28:23, Arimabuff wrote:
It's already in the rules that this number of rounds can be increased or decreased depending on whether more or fewer players sign up. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 15th, 2008, 9:57am Woh, thanks for adding the feature to your program of re-scaling the pairing flight range. I have retroactively doubled the scale (and used 0.9 factor) from the beginning, although it is too late to change the Round 2 pairings. The updated status is now on the tournament status page. There we can see what this round's pairings would have been if we had used the 0.9 from the start. Thanks also for adding the feature to make it configurable how many rounds we go without repeat pairing. When I pair the sixth round, I will try it both ways to see whether avoiding any repeat pairings is too great a constraint according to my gut feeling. I expect it will be with such a small number of players in the tournament, and therefore Round 6 may see some of the same games of Round 1. Thanks also for adding the feature of automatic color assignment according the rules laid out by aaaa. That's one less thing I will have to do manually! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 15th, 2008, 10:05am on 08/10/08 at 06:25:27, omar wrote:
Omar, it is too confusing for me to use that page unless I can unregister forfeits. Naveed is out for Round 3 at the moment because he didn't show up for his game against JDB. I want to take naveed out of the player list, and if he wants to play in Round 3, he needs to re-register himself. Right now naveed may be under the false impression (by looking at the reigstered players list) that he will get to play in Round 3 automatically. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: any beyondRe: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Aug 15th, 2008, 6:51pm Hi Fritzlein, Please change my status from "No" to "Yes*" for Round 3 and beyond. Thanks. *Willing to take bye. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 16th, 2008, 5:40am Welcome back, ChrisB. I have updated the tournament status page. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 18th, 2008, 2:13am I'm really sorry, i didn't realize that school starts next Monday so i didnt change my playing schedule and now i have been given a time (10pm) which is too late because i cant go to bed at 11.30 pm and wake up at 6 am for school (well...it wouldn't be advised) Is there anyway you can pick an earlier time on sunday for us to play? (me and Bilal) just two hours earlier would be much better |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 18th, 2008, 5:44am on 08/18/08 at 02:13:23, Tuks wrote:
Yes, but Bilal has to agree; I don't enforce changes. To have a better chance that Bilal is aware of your problem, you should put a comment asking for a different time on your last game you played with him. That will send him an e-mail message that you have commented his game, and hopefully you can find a time that works for both of you. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: .Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Aug 18th, 2008, 5:57am I would be happy to change the time. It doesn't matter to me as long as it's not too late or early at my time either. But I'll be glad to change |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 18th, 2008, 7:32am Bilal and Tuks: I could move the game two hours earlier. Would that work for both of you? If not, the onus is on you, Tuks, to suggest a better time, now that Bilal has generously expressed willingness to reschedule. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Aug 18th, 2008, 11:35am that would be perfect for me |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Aug 18th, 2008, 4:09pm 2 hours earlier is also okay for me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 18th, 2008, 6:05pm I have rescheduled the game two hours earlier. Thanks for the great sportsmanship, Bilal. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 20th, 2008, 9:13am on 08/15/08 at 10:05:56, Fritzlein wrote:
Thanks for giving me that API, Omar. I have unregistered soldier, naveed, and nbarriga, so they can all rejoin by re-registering rather than by forum post or e-mail. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 22nd, 2008, 3:05am I would like to revive the old proposals of having a finer granularity of time slots and preferences to choose from. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 22nd, 2008, 4:13am I still think it is a good idea. Let's double the number of slots, and choose 60 of 119 instead of choosing 30 of 59. However, this is a change that only Omar can make. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Aug 22nd, 2008, 10:29am on 08/22/08 at 04:13:00, Fritzlein wrote:
I hope you'll give enough advance warning for everyone to set their timetable straight. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 22nd, 2008, 11:23am I know that having more levels of preference makes the system more susceptible to tactical manipulation, but I think that it's still better on balance to increase the number to 5. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 27th, 2008, 2:10am iamanigeeit wants a game rescheduling. See the chatroom. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Aug 27th, 2008, 3:36am on 08/27/08 at 02:10:26, aaaa wrote:
iamanigeeit - can you please suggest a time that would be more appropriate for you? You're probably right that the bot will be free, but I can't guarantee it until you propose a time. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 27th, 2008, 3:49am Thanks for the heads up, aaaa. Iamanigeeit, I have moved the game 24 hours later since 99of9 was kind enough to agree to that slot. Please suggest an alternative as soon as possible if that is not acceptable. The computer that GnoBot runs on is also needed for other purposes, so the availability of an arbitrary time slot is not guaranteed. [EDIT] Thanks for showing up in chat, 99of9 and iamanigeeit. The time has been re-moved to 22 hours before the original time. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by camelback on Aug 29th, 2008, 12:25pm Hi Fritz, I have registered again and will be up for further rounds ;D Thanks |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 29th, 2008, 7:06pm Welcome back, camelback. We could be back up to nine games for Round 5. [EDIT] And welcome Emaad! It looks like I can have the Round 5 bye after all. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 31st, 2008, 9:56am Why not unify the "Players" and the "Player History" tables? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Aug 31st, 2008, 10:04am Hello fritzlein is there any way u can make my game against Chrisb on saturday at 5pm? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 31st, 2008, 10:31am Bilal, you have to ask ChrisB instead of asking me. Maybe he can't play on Saturday at 5pm. The scheduling tool tried to pick the "best" time based on the preferences the two of you entered into the scheduling tool. It is possible that 7:00 a.m. on Friday was the only time slot that both of you had selected. Ask ChrisB in a comment on one of his games whether he can change the time; that will send an e-mail to him. If the two of you agree to a different time, I will happily change it. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Aug 31st, 2008, 7:09pm I don't know whether this was a conscious decision on your part, Karl, but you seem to have acquired the habit of scheduling the next round of games almost immediately after the last game of the previous one is done, regardless of when that is. Perhaps it's better to return to the fixed schedule you had in the beginning to give people enough time to change their time settings if they need to do so. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Aug 31st, 2008, 7:46pm I doubt that the current scheduling problem would have been avoided if I had done the pairing six hours later, since I don't see how BilalQ and ChrisB wouldn't have had "enough time" to enter their time preferences. Everyone has the entire week to enter time preferences for the following week. To be perfectly clear, you can enter your time preferences for Round 6 games now, because Round 5 is already paired. That said, I am amenable to doing the scheduling at a fixed time. I had originally said Sunday midnight GMT, which would be 7:00 p.m. Sunday for me, which is a fine time. If people would prefer the scheduling to be done on Monday night, I'm also open to that. Is there anyone who doesn't know until Monday what there schedule for the rest of the week will be? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Sep 1st, 2008, 5:14am on 08/31/08 at 19:46:44, Fritzlein wrote:
I think you're doing a perfect job just the way it is. I for one like to know the schedule soon after the last game of the round is finished. If you move the scheduling to Monday, you might inconvenience people who can't return to the room before the end of the week and who won't have enough time to clear their schedule for the next game. Voltaire a famous French thinker once said, "The better is the enemy of the good"* that is sometimes we ruin a thing that works well by trying to improve it. Please don't change anything. * Come to think of it you people have a say that goes like this: "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Sep 1st, 2008, 5:14am My preference remains for you to do it the way you have been doing it. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Sep 2nd, 2008, 9:41am on 08/31/08 at 10:04:40, BilalQ wrote:
Hi Bilal, Unfortunately, weekends don't work well for me, but my schedule is flexible enough for ANY start time up to 8 am Saturday CDT. Feel free to choose any time up until then and I'm confident it would work OK for me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Sep 2nd, 2008, 12:28pm Hi all, I just registered for next week's round :) Happy to be joining the feast at last :) Have fun with round 5 ! Jean |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 2nd, 2008, 1:35pm Welcome Jean! I expected it when you started moving quickly in your postal games again. Now if nobody withdraws, we'll have 10 games in Round 6. Yay. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Adanac on Sep 2nd, 2008, 5:55pm As an FYI, I'm likely to be about 15 minutes late for Sunday's game. Ideally I'd like to move the start time back by half an hour but if Arif is OK with me showing up late then we can just leave it as is. Sorry for the inconvenience, but there's little chance I'll be home right at 2pm. P.S. I just read the above post. Welcome Jean! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Sep 3rd, 2008, 3:13pm Hello chris thanks for being so leinent how about saturday 1pm my time? if so then thank you. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Sep 3rd, 2008, 4:23pm Bilal, it would probably help to say what state you live in so that Chris can work out how the timezones compare. But more importantly, 1pm your time is unlikely to be before 8am his time on Saturday. So it would be better if you suggested a time on Friday. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Sep 3rd, 2008, 11:11pm Bilal, As 99of9 pointed out above, it looks like we haven't arrived at a mutually acceptable time yet. I'm in the North American Central Time Zone, which includes the cities Winnipeg, Chicago, Dallas and Mexico City. From your profile information, it looks like you're in the same time zone, or at least one close to mine. If that's correct, Saturday at 1 pm your time would be too late for me. (I'm typically out-of-town on weekends, visiting family and friends.) I'm still available on Thursday (9 am or later), Friday (all day) and Saturday (up until 8 am), my time. If only later times work for you, I can't guarantee showing up, but our best bet would be as early as you can on Saturday or early Sunday morning. Hope we can find a time that works. Looking forward to playing you. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Sep 4th, 2008, 2:44pm Hello Chris, sorry about the messed up time would 6pm friday work for you since we are both in the same time zone? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Sep 4th, 2008, 2:51pm Hi Bilal, 6 pm Friday our time (CDT) works great for me. See you then. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 4th, 2008, 3:51pm Great, I'm glad you two were able to work out a changed time! I have changed the scheduled game to Friday at 6 p.m., so it should now appear that way in the game room. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Sep 4th, 2008, 10:16pm on 09/04/08 at 15:51:09, Fritzlein wrote:
Thanks Karl! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 5th, 2008, 7:04pm I have updated the status page with Friday's results. I just wanted to clarify that, although it displays as a Silver win in the game Aamir vs. iamanigeeit, in reality it is a double-forfeit because neither player showed up. Woh, if you have a chance to work on the code, this display bug goes on the todo list along with streamlining the appearance by unifying the first and last tables. (I think aaaa already suggested the latter; I'm not meaning to take credit for his idea.) Thanks. --Fritz |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Sep 6th, 2008, 12:10am on 09/05/08 at 19:04:52, Fritzlein wrote:
on 08/31/08 at 09:56:39, aaaa wrote:
|
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 6th, 2008, 6:33am Thanks woh! No hurry, of course. Your wonderful program is a huge aid to me as is. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 6th, 2008, 6:50am As per tournament rules, forfeits Aamir, iamanigeeit, and jdb need to explicitly declare before next round if they would like to keep playing; otherwise they will not be paired for Round 6 |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Aamir on Sep 6th, 2008, 9:00am Sorry for the forgotten game. I was doing something for my Dad, when the game slipped from my mind, and yes, I would like play next week. Hopefully, I don't forget this time ???. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 8th, 2008, 1:23pm Thanks to woh, we have a new, prettier, more compact tournament status page: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/ct/status/ |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 8th, 2008, 2:51pm What about filling the page with links where appropriate? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Sep 9th, 2008, 3:00am Yes aaaa, links to players and games would be handy. I already thought about that myself. Links for the players should not be a problem but for links to the games I need game numbers. For now I can't see an easy way to get those game numbers in the tool that generates the status page. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Sep 9th, 2008, 2:41pm Hello 99of9 is it okay with you if bot gnobot and my game is changed to 1pm CDT? Thanks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Sep 9th, 2008, 3:53pm Yes, I'm happy with that if Fritz is willing to change it. For those who are repeatedly requesting time changes: are you aware of how to use the scheduling tool? You know you can change your preferences weekly, and that it will automatically find a good overlap between you and your opponent? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 9th, 2008, 4:20pm Yes, Bilal, I'll move the time six hours later, but as 99of9 says, you can click on this link http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/selectTimes.cgi and put in times you are available so that you don't have to ask for a time change every week. Thanks for communicating rather than forfeiting! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Sep 9th, 2008, 5:41pm The problem I run into is since i have school from 9am to 5pm i can only select times starting from 5pm to 9pm on weekdays. That's why some of the games are at odd times for me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Sep 9th, 2008, 6:15pm on 09/09/08 at 17:41:54, BilalQ wrote:
Fair enough - even the best scheduling tool cannot create time for busy people. This, together with the Sydney timezone is what prevents me from personally entering such a fun tournament. But I'm enjoying playing by proxy. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 10th, 2008, 7:40am Bilal, that makes sense, so long as you know that you might someday have to play in any time slot you have selected (or forfeit) because your opponent is unwilling or unable to accommodate your schedule. I'm glad that you are participating despite being so busy, because your games have been some of the most exciting and dramatic ones of the whole tournament. Thanks for playing! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Sep 10th, 2008, 11:57am hey fritz, next week i have Tennis for my school and its in England (im in germany) so we are taking the whole weekend traveling and playing... so unless i can get a time during the week before Friday and after about 6 pm my time (tennis is the culprit again) then i might have to skip a week Ill check, i might be able to do a 8 pm Sunday game although i will be traveling on the bus for 6+ hours that day plus homework after...would be very stressful so im not sure im even up for it |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 10th, 2008, 9:00pm Tuks, are you saying that you can't play your already-scheduled Round 6 game? If so, you need to ask hamzahq about moving it, not me. If he is unwilling or unable to accommodate your schedule, it is too late for you skip Round 6, because the pairing is already done. If you are talking about Round 7, I think it would be wise for you sit out for a round if you have only a few time slots available. That's better than waiting to see if you get a lucky slot, and forfeiting if you don't get lucky, because when you forfeit your opponent is deprived of a game for the week. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Sep 11th, 2008, 6:17am round 7 and i agree, ill unregister when i finish my game with hamzah |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 11th, 2008, 8:40am Cool, thanks for communicating. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Sep 14th, 2008, 9:38am btw, I'm a bit surprised to get an unattainable rating (unless I've misuderstood the rating system). Well, a quick loss and it'll get back in order :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 14th, 2008, 2:47pm on 09/14/08 at 09:38:30, chessandgo wrote:
You rating is the correct one if you never lose. After your merciless destruction of Omar in Round 6, it might be quite a while before you get the "quick loss", but if you want it to come against me in Round 7, I accept. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 14th, 2008, 2:53pm No forfeits in Round 6! Eighteen out of eighteen players showed up and fought hard. Thank you all for a great round! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by megamau on Sep 17th, 2008, 4:41am A message for ArimaaBuff. Can we move our game on Sunday 2 hours earlier ? The current time is 10pm in my time zone. While I am still able to play a couple of hour, I would like to sleep a bit more before going to work. It would be good for me at 8pm singapore time, which if I understand correctly is about 2pm France time. Please let me know. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Sep 17th, 2008, 6:27am on 09/17/08 at 04:41:38, megamau wrote:
No problem, I just hope that Karl will change the game schedule in time. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 17th, 2008, 8:41am The game has been moved two hours earlier. Thanks to both players for communicating. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Sep 18th, 2008, 2:26pm hello aaaa is it okay with you if our game can be moved 6 hours later from the current time. The reason why is since i am fasting i have to eat at that time. I dont want the two to clash so if you can agree to the change that will be wonderful. Thanks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 18th, 2008, 4:52pm That's fine with me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 18th, 2008, 6:24pm The game has been moved six hours later. Thanks to both players for communicating. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 19th, 2008, 8:43am Aamir and hamzahq agreed to move their game 2 hours earlier. I've made the change. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by The_Jeh on Sep 19th, 2008, 8:45am Fritz, I will be unable to play in round eight, but I plan to be back for round nine. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 19th, 2008, 6:22pm I would like to warn everyone in advance that the changes that are about to be made to the scheduling code requires everyone to restate their time preferences, for the existing ones will become scrambled. Hopefully, when this time comes, Omar will advertise this loud and clear in the game room. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by BilalQ on Sep 21st, 2008, 11:23am hello, both my brother and i would like to resign from the tournament for now. Our schools are starting to give more projects and tests so it's getting to be a little to much. We enjoyed the tournament thanks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 21st, 2008, 1:20pm Thanks for the advance notice, Bilal. Any time you want to jump back in, just let me know. Good luck in school! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 21st, 2008, 4:34pm I have setup the scripts aaaa provided, but have not announced it yet. Instead I wrote a script to convert the old preferred time to the new format. I ran the current pairing with each to compare them. Here is what I got: Old system: omar naveed [Sun Sep 28 18:00:00 2008 GMT] camelback chessandgo [Sun Sep 28 14:00:00 2008 GMT] aaaa ArifSyed [Sat Sep 27 20:00:00 2008 GMT] Arimabuff ChrisB [Sat Sep 27 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Aamir bot_GnoBot [Sun Sep 28 20:00:00 2008 GMT] megamau woh [Sun Sep 28 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Tachyon MightyPluto [Sun Sep 28 04:00:00 2008 GMT] New system: omar naveed [Sun Sep 28 14:00:00 2008 GMT] camelback chessandgo [Sun Sep 28 16:00:00 2008 GMT] aaaa ArifSyed [Sun Sep 28 17:00:00 2008 GMT] Arimabuff ChrisB [Sun Sep 28 19:00:00 2008 GMT] Aamir bot_GnoBot [Sun Sep 28 20:00:00 2008 GMT] megamau woh [Sun Sep 28 15:00:00 2008 GMT] Tachyon MightyPluto [Sun Sep 28 18:00:00 2008 GMT] Hard to tell if it is OK without knowing what all the players had selected. Here is my conversion script: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/xconvert.txt Looks reasonable to me. Should I announce it, or should we wait another week to test it more? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 21st, 2008, 4:45pm There is quite a change between the two schedules. If you really want to know whether that is OK or not, you should have the script output not only the times, but the preferences of each player for the time they got, so we know whether the preferences got better or worse (each indicating a bug) or stayed the same (the conversion probably worked). |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 21st, 2008, 4:56pm The conversion script looks incorrect to me. The formula should be new_slot=old_slot*2-1, not new_slot=old_slot*2+1 and one should not just assume that a preference for one hour implies the same preference for the next one. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 21st, 2008, 8:27pm on 09/21/08 at 16:45:25, Fritzlein wrote:
Good idea; I'll try to have it output the players preferred times. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 21st, 2008, 8:51pm on 09/21/08 at 16:56:36, aaaa wrote:
You are right there is a problem with the current mapping. I've fixed it. For a quick automated conversion I think it is reasonable to assume the next hour has the same preference. If anyone writes a better conversion program, please post it and I will use that. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 21st, 2008, 10:42pm Here is what I am getting now: Old system: omar naveed [Sun Sep 28 18:00:00 2008 GMT] camelback chessandgo [Sun Sep 28 14:00:00 2008 GMT] aaaa ArifSyed [Sat Sep 27 20:00:00 2008 GMT] Arimabuff ChrisB [Sat Sep 27 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Aamir bot_GnoBot [Sun Sep 28 20:00:00 2008 GMT] megamau woh [Sun Sep 28 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Tachyon MightyPluto [Sun Sep 28 04:00:00 2008 GMT] ===== selected slot and overlapping slots Tachyon MightyPluto (51) 51 50 49 39 38 37 27 26 25 15 14 13 3 2 1 omar naveed (58 ) 58 47 46 45 59 56 48 44 57 55 54 51 43 42 39 27 26 15 3 49 37 25 Aamir bot_GnoBot (59) 59 49 47 37 35 25 23 13 11 1 58 57 56 46 45 44 34 33 32 22 21 10 9 8 camelback chessandgo (56) 56 44 57 51 45 39 20 58 46 59 55 52 50 48 47 43 40 38 37 32 27 15 14 13 8 3 2 1 54 53 42 41 megamau woh (55) 56 55 52 51 32 54 50 57 34 33 53 48 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 24 22 21 20 12 10 9 8 59 49 46 45 35 31 25 23 19 13 11 7 1 Arimabuff ChrisB (43) 56 55 43 34 31 23 22 7 28 24 16 12 4 59 58 57 53 52 47 46 45 44 41 40 35 33 29 27 26 17 15 14 11 10 8 5 3 2 48 36 30 25 18 13 6 1 aaaa ArifSyed (47) 59 47 23 58 46 22 57 45 56 48 44 36 35 32 24 21 55 51 50 49 43 39 38 37 31 27 25 20 19 15 14 13 11 8 7 3 2 1 54 42 34 33 30 18 10 9 6 New system: omar naveed [Sun Sep 28 19:00:00 2008 GMT] camelback chessandgo [Sun Sep 28 14:00:00 2008 GMT] aaaa ArifSyed [Sun Sep 28 20:00:00 2008 GMT] Arimabuff ChrisB [Sun Sep 28 15:00:00 2008 GMT] Aamir bot_GnoBot [Sun Sep 28 21:00:00 2008 GMT] megamau woh [Sun Sep 28 13:00:00 2008 GMT] Tachyon MightyPluto [Sun Sep 28 05:00:00 2008 GMT] ===== selected slot and overlapping slots Aamir bot_GnoBot (118 ) 118 117 98 97 94 93 74 73 70 69 50 49 46 45 26 25 22 21 2 1 116 115 114 113 112 111 92 91 90 89 88 87 68 67 66 65 64 63 44 43 42 41 20 19 18 17 16 15 102 101 96 95 78 77 72 71 54 53 48 47 30 29 24 23 6 5 119 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 100 99 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 76 75 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 52 51 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 28 27 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 4 3 Arimabuff ChrisB (112) 112 111 110 109 86 85 68 67 62 61 46 45 44 43 14 13 56 55 48 47 32 31 24 23 8 7 66 65 58 57 34 33 16 15 10 9 118 117 116 115 114 113 106 105 104 103 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 82 81 80 79 70 69 54 53 52 51 30 29 28 27 22 21 20 19 6 5 4 3 96 95 72 71 60 59 50 49 36 35 26 25 12 11 2 1 64 63 42 41 40 39 38 37 18 17 119 108 107 102 101 100 99 98 97 84 83 78 77 76 75 74 73 Tachyon MightyPluto (102) 102 101 100 99 98 97 78 77 76 75 74 73 54 53 52 51 50 49 30 29 28 27 26 25 6 5 4 3 2 1 104 103 96 95 90 89 80 79 72 71 66 65 56 55 48 47 42 41 40 39 34 33 32 31 24 23 18 17 8 7 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 94 93 92 91 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 70 69 68 67 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 46 45 44 43 38 37 36 35 22 21 20 19 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 aaaa ArifSyed (117) 118 117 94 93 46 45 116 115 92 91 44 43 114 113 90 89 112 111 96 95 88 87 72 71 70 69 64 63 48 47 42 41 110 109 102 101 100 99 98 97 86 85 78 77 76 75 74 73 62 61 54 53 50 49 40 39 38 37 30 29 28 27 26 25 22 21 16 15 14 13 6 5 4 3 2 1 108 107 84 83 68 67 66 65 60 59 36 35 20 19 18 17 12 11 24 23 119 106 105 104 103 82 81 80 79 58 57 56 55 52 51 34 33 32 31 10 9 8 7 camelback chessandgo (111) 112 111 88 87 114 113 102 101 90 89 78 77 40 39 116 115 92 91 118 117 104 103 96 95 94 93 80 79 110 109 100 99 86 85 76 75 74 73 64 63 54 53 30 29 28 27 26 25 16 15 6 5 4 3 2 1 108 107 106 105 84 83 82 81 98 97 72 71 56 55 46 45 44 43 42 41 38 37 36 35 32 31 22 21 20 19 18 17 10 9 8 7 119 70 69 68 67 66 65 62 61 60 59 58 57 52 51 50 49 48 47 34 33 24 23 14 13 12 11 megamau woh (110) 112 111 110 109 104 103 102 101 64 63 108 107 100 99 114 113 68 67 66 65 42 41 18 17 106 105 96 95 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 48 47 44 43 40 39 24 23 20 19 16 15 118 117 98 97 92 91 90 89 70 69 62 61 50 49 46 45 38 37 26 25 22 21 14 13 2 1 116 115 94 93 72 71 60 59 52 51 36 35 28 27 12 11 4 3 119 74 73 58 57 56 55 54 53 34 33 32 31 30 29 10 9 8 7 6 5 omar naveed (116) 116 115 94 93 92 91 90 89 118 117 112 111 96 95 88 87 114 113 110 109 108 107 102 101 86 85 84 83 78 77 54 53 30 29 6 5 52 51 98 97 74 73 50 49 106 105 100 99 82 81 76 75 62 61 60 59 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 4 3 2 1 119 104 103 80 79 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 58 57 56 55 48 47 46 45 34 33 32 31 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 22nd, 2008, 6:55am on 09/21/08 at 20:51:58, omar wrote:
But if you don't do that, the output should be identical to that of the old system and you can immediately spot whether that's the case or not. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 22nd, 2008, 7:51am on 09/22/08 at 06:55:02, aaaa wrote:
No, it won't be identical, because in the new system two slots that used to be identical will be different, so games that used to be bumped earlier to avoid scheduling two games at the same time no longer will be. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 22nd, 2008, 7:56am on 09/21/08 at 22:42:44, omar wrote:
I can't make sense of this ordering. I can understand why slot 59 is preferred to slot 49 (under the rule that later is better when all else is equal), but I can't understand why 1 is preferred to 58. If the preferences are equivalent, then 58 should be preferred because it is later, but if the preferences of 58 are worse, then 58 shouldn't even be an eligible slot, right? Maybe the overlapping slots with worse preferences are in fact not eligible, but they were included in the debug output anyway. I'm hoping that's the case. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 22nd, 2008, 9:36am I think there may have been a bug in the code that has been exacerbated by the changes I've made to it. It appears that the goal of minimizing the number of simultaneously started games is not a strictly less priority than picking a time slot with the best worst preference of the two players (with ties broken by the best best preference). |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 22nd, 2008, 11:18am Here's a quick, dirty fix I think might work. In schedView, between: Code:
and Code:
insert the following: Code:
|
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 22nd, 2008, 1:41pm on 09/22/08 at 09:36:48, aaaa wrote:
That's a very serious bug, and I'm not the only one who was afraid it was there, so I am glad if you can fix it. The needs of the spectators to have the games on the weekend and spread out should never trump the needs of the players to have the best available times in their schedules. The scheduling to move games late in the week and make them not overlap is a somewhat good thing, but if that ever means the players get, say, a 2nd-3rd preference instead of a 2nd-2nd, it is a very bad thing. To be honest I am upset that this bug is present because I and other players suspected it might be, and I explicitly asked Omar about it, but he reassured me that the player preferences always took priority. Grrr... Well, at least we caught it now. Thanks for the debug output, Omar. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 22nd, 2008, 6:36pm on 09/22/08 at 07:51:04, Fritzlein wrote:
Remember that I'm talking about converting the existing preferences without duplicating each with respect to the next hour. The tendency to avoid games starting at the same time should not have a different effect then. I will say that with the current conversion scheme, it is said tendency that prevents the change between the old and the new outputted time slots to simply be an across-the-board delay of one hour. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 22nd, 2008, 11:36pm I had thought the intersect() routine was returning only the best slots. Apparently it wasn't. It's always good to have more eyes scrutinizing the code. Thanks Karl for noticing this and aaaa for the patch. Here are the results after making the change: Old system: omar naveed [Sun Sep 28 18:00:00 2008 GMT] camelback chessandgo [Sun Sep 28 14:00:00 2008 GMT] aaaa ArifSyed [Sun Sep 28 20:00:00 2008 GMT] Arimabuff ChrisB [Sat Sep 27 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Aamir bot_GnoBot [Sun Sep 28 00:00:00 2008 GMT] megamau woh [Sun Sep 28 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Tachyon MightyPluto [Sun Sep 28 04:00:00 2008 GMT] ---- camelback chessandgo (56) 56 44 aaaa ArifSyed (59) 59 47 23 megamau woh (55) 56 55 52 omar naveed (58) 58 47 46 45 Arimabuff ChrisB (43) 56 55 43 34 31 23 22 7 Aamir bot_GnoBot (49) 59 49 47 37 35 25 23 13 11 1 Tachyon MightyPluto (51) 51 50 49 39 38 37 27 26 25 15 14 13 3 2 1 New system: omar naveed [Sun Sep 28 19:00:00 2008 GMT] camelback chessandgo [Sun Sep 28 15:00:00 2008 GMT] aaaa ArifSyed [Sun Sep 28 21:00:00 2008 GMT] Arimabuff ChrisB [Sun Sep 28 13:00:00 2008 GMT] Aamir bot_GnoBot [Sun Sep 28 20:00:00 2008 GMT] megamau woh [Sun Sep 28 14:00:00 2008 GMT] Tachyon MightyPluto [Sun Sep 28 05:00:00 2008 GMT] ---- camelback chessandgo (112) 112 111 88 87 aaaa ArifSyed (118) 118 117 94 93 46 45 megamau woh (111) 112 111 110 109 104 103 omar naveed (116) 116 115 94 93 92 91 90 89 Arimabuff ChrisB (110) 112 111 110 109 86 85 68 67 62 61 46 45 44 43 14 13 Aamir bot_GnoBot (117) 118 117 98 97 94 93 74 73 70 69 50 49 46 45 26 25 22 21 2 1 Tachyon MightyPluto (102) 102 101 100 99 98 97 78 77 76 75 74 73 54 53 52 51 50 49 30 29 28 27 26 25 6 5 4 3 2 1 |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 22nd, 2008, 11:55pm I modified the convert script so that it does not include the following hour as another preferred time slot. This is a good way to test if the new scheduler would produce the same result as the old one. The output is identical other than the time slots having different numbers. omar naveed [Sun Sep 28 18:00:00 2008 GMT] camelback chessandgo [Sun Sep 28 14:00:00 2008 GMT] aaaa ArifSyed [Sun Sep 28 20:00:00 2008 GMT] Arimabuff ChrisB [Sat Sep 27 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Aamir bot_GnoBot [Sun Sep 28 00:00:00 2008 GMT] megamau woh [Sun Sep 28 12:00:00 2008 GMT] Tachyon MightyPluto [Sun Sep 28 04:00:00 2008 GMT] ---- camelback chessandgo (111) 111 87 aaaa ArifSyed (117) 117 93 45 megamau woh (109) 111 109 103 omar naveed (115) 115 93 91 89 Arimabuff ChrisB (85) 111 109 85 67 61 45 43 13 Aamir bot_GnoBot (97) 117 97 93 73 69 49 45 25 21 1 Tachyon MightyPluto (101) 101 99 97 77 75 73 53 51 49 29 27 25 5 3 1 I think we should start using aaaa's scheduler now. But to save players from having to reenter their times I will run the convert script with the assumption that the following hour is also to be included with the same preference level. After running the convert script the time selection page can be switched over to the new one. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Sep 23rd, 2008, 3:53am on 09/22/08 at 23:55:49, omar wrote:
Sounds good to me. Thanks for your hard work everyone. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 23rd, 2008, 6:55am That makes sense, Omar. Not duplicating the hour is good for testing, but for the actual conversion we need 60 selected instead of 30, so duplicating seems like the only choice. Thanks for fixing the bug. Thanks aaaa for pushing and contributing on this. I'm excited to start using the new scheduler! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Sep 23rd, 2008, 10:00pm Done. We are now setup to use the new system to select game times for the continuous tournament. I would like to give a big thanks to aaaa for taking the initiative to improve the time selection and scheduling scripts. Also thanks to everyone else who provided suggestions and feedback. Hopefully this will allow more people to be able to participate in the continuous tournament. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Sep 23rd, 2008, 11:52pm Thanks, aaaa and Omar! I just updated my times. Both the one-hour time slots and the additional two priority levels came in very handy. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Sep 24th, 2008, 5:59am Fritz...maybe we had a misunderstanding, i thought i was going to be automatically back on this week or maybe its because i didnt change my times? either way, add me for the next week or perhaps this one if thats possible(i dont think it is) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 24th, 2008, 7:02am You can't expect Fritzlein to keep track of future changes in being registered or not. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 24th, 2008, 3:40pm Sorry, Tuks, I intended to put you back in but I just forgot. I did check the list of registered players before pairing the round, as I do every week, so re-registering there is a safe way to rejoin despite my bad memory. While I am thinking of it I will register The_Jeh for next week so I don't forget him. My apologies for the missed game this week. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Sep 24th, 2008, 3:43pm Why not let him play you like you did with Adanac? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Sep 24th, 2008, 8:21pm thats fine Fritz, i registered as soon as i noticed i wasnt on |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 25th, 2008, 6:38am on 09/24/08 at 15:43:37, aaaa wrote:
What do you think, Tuks? Would you like to play a make-up game with me? I will be free Friday to Sunday. I think your afternoon and evening are my morning and afternoon, so if you name a time that is afternoon or evening for you, I can probably play. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Sep 25th, 2008, 8:32am would i like an assured loss? Why not ;D how about 5, 6 or 7 pm my time on Sunday? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Sep 25th, 2008, 6:57pm on 09/25/08 at 08:32:22, Tuks wrote:
Done, I think. Tell me if I miscalculated the time. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Sep 25th, 2008, 7:23pm great, ill be there |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by megamau on Oct 5th, 2008, 4:14am A message for Omar. It seems that the internet connection in my hotel here in Shangei has trouble handling the Arimaa client (and the forum....it is the 2 time I write this post). I tried a couple of games but I could not even move a piece. I might be able to find an internet cafe, but it is unlikely, given the late local time (11 pm). So if I am not there by say 11.10, please feel free to adjudicate the game. I would like to apologize to Fritzlein for all this trouble in his tournamente (last game woh waited almost 2 hours). It would have been better to take a 2 week pause for my China trip. In any case I will also send a direct message to Omar. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Oct 5th, 2008, 7:33am Thanks for letting us know megamau. I'll be taking a break next week due to the Arimaa Festival planning. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 5th, 2008, 8:43am That's too bad about your connection, megamau. I'm not quite sure from your message whether you want to be in for Round 10 or not. Will your connection be better next week again? [EDIT] I decided to read your letter to imply that your two-week trip to China is ending, so things will be back to normal for Round 10 after the issues of the last two weeks. I hope I'm right. :-/ |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by megamau on Oct 8th, 2008, 2:01am You are right. I am still in Shangai (so still shaky connection), but Sunday I will be in Singapore so there should be no problem. Thanks a lot for the understanding. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Oct 11th, 2008, 5:52pm Tuks, if Gnobot times out in your tourney game, please accept my sincere apologies, I'm getting a strange intermittent stack smash that I haven't been able to track down but seems to have been introduced some time ago. Fritz, please withdraw Gnobot until further notice. Janzert, I hope Opfor can take up the bot cause for now! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 11th, 2008, 6:08pm GnoBot has been unregistered. Aamir, you are back in, as per our conversation at the festival today. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Oct 11th, 2008, 6:16pm on 10/11/08 at 17:52:56, 99of9 wrote:
Unfortunately as I'll be out of town next weekend, OpFor will have to wait at least till the week after to give it a run. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by The_Jeh on Oct 11th, 2008, 8:50pm Fritz, as I can't guarantee I'll be available the next two weekends, I'm going to have to withdraw for rounds 11 and 12. My apologies. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by megamau on Oct 11th, 2008, 11:29pm As forecast, I am back in Singapore and with a stable internet connection, so I will play this evening. Only one request to Chessandgo, if possible. I would like to start sooner that 11pm, in order to avoid sleepiness tomorrow morning at work after 2 weeks vacation :-) 8 pm, 9 pm and 10 pm are all good to me (the sooner the better), so if you happen to connect and you don't have problem playing sooner please reply. Otherwise we will play regularly at 11pm. Best regards |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Oct 12th, 2008, 12:58am on 10/11/08 at 18:08:36, Fritzlein wrote:
Scratch that, I've found the main problem (I introduced it yesterday). Please can you reregister Gnobot if it successfully completes tonight's game? Thanks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Oct 12th, 2008, 5:58am on 10/11/08 at 23:29:15, megamau wrote:
Hi Maurizio, sorry, I just saw your post. I'm ready to play now (waiting in chatroom) ; if you happen to come before your 11 pm just drop in and we'll start. Cheers Jean |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by aaaa on Oct 12th, 2008, 11:13am Am I correct in assuming from the cross table that rounds not played still count towards allowing a pairing again? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 12th, 2008, 1:11pm The_Jeh is out, GnoBot is back in. Also, I am out for this week, since I will be on vacation from Thursday through Sunday. I probably won't be able to pair round 12 until Monday night, 24 hours later than usual. I hope everything runs smoothly while I am gone. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 12th, 2008, 1:18pm on 10/12/08 at 11:13:28, aaaa wrote:
Right, you can face the same opponent once every five rounds of the tournament, not just once every five rounds that you participate in. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by camelback on Oct 13th, 2008, 8:49am Fritz, I have unregistered from the tourney, since I will be busy traveling then moving for the next few weeks from Round 12 (after naveed's game). I'll re-register when I'm available. Thanks |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Oct 14th, 2008, 4:08am on 10/11/08 at 17:52:56, 99of9 wrote:
I finally found the remnant of this bug. It turns out there was a rare error in Don's orginal sample bot code. He assumed a (compound) step could never require more than 16 characters to describe. Occasionally during a single pull or push, two pieces can die, requiring a fair few characters to notate the step. This caused Gnobot to time out any time it wanted to play a move like this, and affects all previous versions of Gnobot since 2005. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 14th, 2008, 10:50am Nice detective, work 99of9! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 14th, 2008, 10:51am Thanks for the advance notice, camelback. I hope you will be able to rejoin soon. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Oct 17th, 2008, 8:01pm Hi Fritzlein, Like camelback, I also unregistered since my schedule for next week (after my game with megamau) does not have enough openings for arranging a game. I may also stay out for a few more weeks, but I'm looking forward to re-registering when my schedule opens up a bit. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 18th, 2008, 6:56pm Thanks for the notification, ChrisB. Can anyone tell me what happened in the game ArifSyed vs. Tuks in Round 11? Usually if one player sits down and the other doesn't, it is marked as a forfeit, but this one is marked "a". I have only seen that in the past when both players have been seated, and both were gone when the time ran out, which seems like an unlikely scenario in this case. Does the "a" actually mean it was a double-forfeit? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by The_Jeh on Oct 18th, 2008, 7:49pm I'm not sure that "a" stands for double-forfeit. I had a game result in "a" in game 73048, which was played against no one. The in-game text for ArifSyed vs. Tuks says "Played Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 GMT to Sat Oct 18 19:23:13 2008 GMT (14170d19h23m13s)" That's one long game. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Oct 19th, 2008, 12:45am im not sure why it did that...but it should have been a forfeit for me because i forgot my game was Saturday not Sunday so i came on at 10:30 (for no specific reason), an hour and a half after my scheduled game, arifsyed was still on so i challenged him but he was away from the comp hopefully we can do the match today but if we dont, then put it is as a forfeit |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tachyon on Oct 19th, 2008, 10:54pm Is it correct that the scheduling tool show no times for Sunday after 3pm and the whole of Mondays or does it display incorrectly in my browser ? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 20th, 2008, 5:27am on 10/19/08 at 22:54:18, Tachyon wrote:
That could be right depending on your time zone. I'm back home and will pair Round 12 tonight after work. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Arimabuff on Oct 20th, 2008, 11:39pm Karl, I asked you to remove me from the competition and I never said to put me back in. So what am I doing there? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 21st, 2008, 6:28am on 10/20/08 at 23:39:19, Arimabuff wrote:
Oh, dear. When I paired this round, I checked the list of registered players for anyone who might have joined, not by announcing in the forum, but instead by registering through the tournament page. For example, jdb and dougk registered via the Web page this week, and omar and naveed did so last week. Your name was also in the list of registered players this week, so I assumed that you had re-registered. Apparently, however, you were still in the list from two weeks ago. I am surprised that I didn't remove your name last week, because I check the actual pairings against the registration every week. Now, however, I recall that you withdrew at the last minute, probably after I did last week's comparison, which would explain why I didn't notice the discrepancy at that time. I apologize to both you and jdb for my mistake. I would volunteer to play against jdb in your place, except that I am already playing. I am not sure what else to do. Maybe I can re-pair the top (chessandgo vs woh / omar vs. jdb) if the players involved agree. Otherwise I guess I will have to give jdb a bye and 100 prize points. Again, my apologies for my mistake. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Oct 21st, 2008, 8:27am on 10/21/08 at 06:28:59, Fritzlein wrote:
Fritzlein, your suggested re-pairing is OK for me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by jdb on Oct 21st, 2008, 8:46am on 10/21/08 at 08:27:13, woh wrote:
I don't mind sitting out another week, so either way is fine with me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Oct 21st, 2008, 9:13am Jeff (and Karl), I opted out this week because I won't be available to play during the later part of the week. However, I would be happy to play you, substituting for Arimabuff, Wednesday evening anytime after 6 pm my time (CDT) or Thursday morning up to a start time of 7 am my time. (I believe that would be 7 pm to 8 am for you.) If those times are bad for you perhaps someone esle may be able to play you at a differrent time. I think it would be better to add a game rather than take one away. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by jdb on Oct 21st, 2008, 11:25am on 10/21/08 at 09:13:43, ChrisB wrote:
I am home Wednesday evening this week, so that would work for me. How about 7pm CDT? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 21st, 2008, 12:54pm Thanks everyone for being so flexible and understanding. I have created the game ChrisB vs. jdb and updated the tournament status page. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by ChrisB on Oct 21st, 2008, 2:30pm on 10/21/08 at 11:25:27, jdb wrote:
Wednesday at 7 pm CDT works well for me. See you then. (It's nice to get in a game in an otherwise busy week.) (To keep my playing status consistent with my registration status, I re-registered via the web page. If next week doesn't look good, I'll simply unregister again before Sunday evening.) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Oct 21st, 2008, 10:11pm on 10/21/08 at 14:30:49, ChrisB wrote:
Thanks, ChrisB. I try to remember what people tell me, but it's a nice fallback if you also update the tournament status page. That reminds me to re-register The_Jeh for Round 13 while I am thinking of it. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 1st, 2008, 1:41am I will be tied up next weekend, and therefore won't be able to play in Round 14. With ChrisB also unavailable, I might have to assign an involuntary bye for the first time, if there are an odd number of players. Of course, there is a 50% chance there will be an even number of players, but I would like to be prepared in case there isn't. Before I figure out rules for who has to take the bye, let me ask if there is anyone who would volunteer for it. I'm especially eager for someone who isn't registered but would be willing to play if necessary, as opposed to someone who is already registered but would be willing to sit out if necessary, although the latter also solves the problem. Thanks in advance to any volunteers. If there are none, no worries, I'll just have to make up a bye policy. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Nov 1st, 2008, 3:21am Feel free to sit opfor out whenever needed. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Nov 1st, 2008, 5:02am I've unresgistered for next week (away until friday night), but if there is an odd number of players and my opponent agrees on playing during the week-end I'll be fine playing. Jean |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 1st, 2008, 7:32am Thanks for the offer, Janzert. I will have OpFor sit out if all else fails. Chessandgo, I would much rather have you sit in than anyone have to sit out. If there are an odd number of players and I bring you in, you will be playing The_Jeh. So, John, would you be able to play chessandgo on the weekend for Round 14? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 2nd, 2008, 4:11pm I have paired Round 14, consisting of eight players. If we get down to six players, the tournament becomes a de facto round-robin, which is fine If we get below six players I will suspend the tournament until more players express interest, because it would hardly even be a tournament with five or fewer players. I'm curious to see whether this is part of the natural ebb and flow of the tournament, or whether it is in the process of dying a natural death. Either way is fine. At most we could have eight more rounds anyway before having to suspend play for the World Championship. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Nov 2nd, 2008, 9:23pm um, why aren't i in it? I showed up for my game and had it on for almost 2 hours before omar told me naveed wasn't coming. Granted i was late but not enough that much, i was still able to enter my game |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 3rd, 2008, 6:14am on 11/02/08 at 21:23:51, Tuks wrote:
My apologies for my misunderstanding. I also showed up late for your game. Neither you nor naveed was logged in to the game room. Neither of you was seated at the game table, at least not in the client window that I was using. You were not logged in to the chat room at the time. (How did Omar tell you that Naveed wasn't coming?) The scheduled game itself shows up symmetrically in both your game record and Naveed's as "a" for abandoned. In other words, I had no evidence that anything had happened other than both players failing to show up, which explains why I didn't award you the forfeit win. I am not sure how I could have avoided this mistake in the absence of any sign that you were present; I hope you understand. I will go back and redo the results for last round to give you the forfeit win, and re-register you for the tournament. Thank you for patiently waiting for Naveed to show up. In the future, however, if your opponent doesn't show up for a game, please join the chat room within 15 minutes of the scheduled game start to show that you were present then. Otherwise I won't be able to tell the difference between someone who was on time and someone who showed up two hours late to claim a forfeit win in what otherwise should have been a double-forfeit. Thank you for you understanding why I mistakenly thought you never showed up. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Nov 3rd, 2008, 9:45pm that's fine, Omar told me through an invite he sent me when i was still on and i got off when he told me |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by megamau on Nov 6th, 2008, 6:14am A message for Omar. Would it be possible to move our game ? I just now realized that I have a dancing dinner on Saturday night, from 9 to past midnight. Would it be possible to move the game to one of these timeslots ? Friday Night (8pm - 1am Singapore time) Saturday morning-afternoon (8 am / 4pm Singapore time) Sunday (9am - 11pm Singapore time) I tried to enlarge the slots as much as possible, however if you can't in these times I will have to forfeit. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by RonWeasley on Nov 7th, 2008, 4:53am on 11/06/08 at 06:14:49, megamau wrote:
Dancing dinners are fun, but when I was a first-year, two pies waltzed right into my face. If the soup asks you to tango? Decline. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Nov 7th, 2008, 10:09am on 11/06/08 at 06:14:49, megamau wrote:
No problem. Lets shoot for Sunday (9am - 11pm Singapore time). I think that would be Saturday 7pm for me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 7th, 2008, 10:20am Omar, I have scheduled the game for 7:00 pm Saturday our time. It's not a problem that you and Aamir are scheduled for the same time, is it? Megamau, does the new time work for you? Tachyon/99of9, there is a distinct possibility that I messed up the time of your game while trying to change the time of the omar/megamau game. Does the time your game is at now look correct? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tachyon on Nov 7th, 2008, 4:38pm My scheduled time still looks correct. Seeing that I am playing a bot. Is there any chance I can play him tonight (Friday) sometime. I assume bots are available all the time ? If it is a hassle I am happy to stick to the original timeslot. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by megamau on Nov 7th, 2008, 5:19pm Thanks Omar. If you want to avoid clashes with Aamir game and have a slightly more awake opponent we could move it to 11 am (9pm your time). Otherwise the current time is anyway fine. Thanks also to Fritzlein |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 9th, 2008, 8:10am I see that all four games this round went off without a hitch. Thanks everyone for making this round successful! I note the victories for both GnoBot and OpFor over the board. Look out Bomb: you have a major challenge coming your way in the 2009 Computer Championship. Several people have rejoined the tournament for Round 15, plus we have one newcomer. Welcome Sunset! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Nov 9th, 2008, 3:48pm on 11/07/08 at 16:38:47, Tachyon wrote:
Oh, sorry Tachyon, I only saw this just now. Gnobot runs on my laptop, so it is not always available, but do ask if you ever need a switch, as I can often arrange something. Thanks for playing even though the time wasn't ideal for you. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Nov 16th, 2008, 1:09am Fritzlein My tournament game against megamau is game 88648. I had just left the sheduled game when megamau entered the gameroom. So we started this game instead. woh |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 16th, 2008, 10:52am Thanks for the communication, woh. I will use game 88648 as the tournament game. It was sporting of you to play when you could have claimed the forfeit. That reminds me that we should clarify the World Championship rules to be explicit that players do not have the option of being sporting. If the other player is late or times out due to technical issues, the forfeit/timeout may not be erased by the generosity of the winning player. Or is that the rule? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by jdb on Nov 18th, 2008, 5:42am Would it be possible to move my game against Opfor on Friday, 2 hours earlier? I have to be out late Thursday night and starting a couple hours earlier on Friday would help a lot. Thanks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Nov 18th, 2008, 12:41pm Sure, that's no problem with me. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by jdb on Nov 18th, 2008, 12:44pm on 11/18/08 at 12:41:03, Janzert wrote:
Thanks |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 18th, 2008, 3:12pm I have moved the game two hours earlier. Thanks to Janzert for being flexible and to both players for communicating. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Nov 23rd, 2008, 2:03pm Round 17 sees some of the U.S. folks (like me) dropping out, presumably for Thanksgiving. But that's what great about the Continuous Tournament: when some can't play, others carry on. I will be back in next week, and we should get up to Round 21 before I call a pause for the World Championship. Janzert, thanks for setting OpFor as willing to take a bye. I don't know what I would have done this round otherwise. But feel free to change that setting if you want to be sure of a game next round. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Nov 23rd, 2008, 5:46pm No problem, feel free to drop OpFor whenever needed for whatever reason. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Dec 8th, 2008, 6:57am Wow, who would have guessed i would be top at any point?? :D o well, it will be a miracle if i beat arimaa_master so i suspect aaaa will take the lead next week :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 8th, 2008, 10:42am Congrats on topping the list, Tuks! I'm already scratching my head as I look forward the the World Championship and wonder who is going to make the final eight this year. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by svartalfar17 on Dec 10th, 2008, 12:02pm I'd like to join for round 20. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 10th, 2008, 1:42pm on 12/10/08 at 12:02:16, svartalfar17 wrote:
You are in! Thank you for joining. Have you entered the times you will be available next week? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by svartalfar17 on Dec 10th, 2008, 3:23pm yes :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tachyon on Dec 11th, 2008, 6:59am Hi Janzert Any chance we could schedule my game with opfor 3-4 hours later. I realized too late I have a board meeting to attend which I cant move. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Dec 11th, 2008, 9:05am Sure, I don't know that I'll be awake by that point but I should be able to leave opfor just sitting at the game. Or maybe better if it is ok with Fritzlein, I can just leave opfor online in the game room and just say that your next game with it counts for the CT? Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 11th, 2008, 5:07pm I moved the game four hours later. As this is a last-minute request, I accept Janzert's solution of having the next Tachyon-OpFor game count for the tournament, but generally it would be nice if the scheduled game was actually the one played. What if, for example, someone else sits down to play against OpFor and monopolizes it for the only time Tachyon is available? The scheduled game at least reserves the seats for the proper players. 99of9, how do you get GnoBot to sit down at a tournament game when you are asleep? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Dec 11th, 2008, 6:47pm on 12/11/08 at 17:07:33, Fritzlein wrote:
I run a script which sleeps until a minute or so before the game time, then tries to play the correct game number. As a safeguard it then sleeps for 30 sec and tries again to enter (and does this many times), but I think it always gets in on the first time. In fact, I think the bots are allowed to sit down at the table as early as they want, but there will be constant network traffic if they sit hours early. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Dec 11th, 2008, 8:12pm on 12/11/08 at 18:47:32, 99of9 wrote:
And actually this is what I plan to do now that Fritzlein was able to change the official game time. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tachyon on Dec 11th, 2008, 11:54pm Thanks for accommodating my request Janzert. Il play at the new time. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 12th, 2008, 7:18am Thanks, guys, for communicating and being flexible! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tachyon on Dec 12th, 2008, 8:56am Hi Fritz I have unregistered for the continuous tournament until further notice as the next few weeks are full of festivities. Will register again when time allows. Thanks for allowing me to participate. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 12th, 2008, 11:34am Thanks for playing. I'm going to try to run three more rounds before suspending the tournament, Rounds 20-22, with the last game potentially occurring on January 4. Round 22 would be scheduled on December 28, so after that people could enter their times for the World Championship, and there should be no conflict. If we fall below 10 players I will suspend the tournament earlier. As of now we still have 12 registered players, but that may decrease if the holidays take up everyone's time. Alternatively, it could increase as people try to get in a round or two of practice before the World Championship starts. ;) With the time control and the scheduling tool being the same, we'll have to make sure people know the important tournament has started! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Adanac on Dec 12th, 2008, 11:58am I'm tempted to join the tournament again, but my weekends have suddenly become all booked up during the month of December. I'll play if I can get an opponent who does NOT want a weekend game ;) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Dec 15th, 2008, 5:45am I'm really sorry about this, but Gnobot cannot play the scheduled time. In fact, I forgot that I will be away Friday and the whole weekend. Would it be possible for Opfor to substitute for Gnobot? In fact, can you please withdraw Gnobot until I say otherwise? There are a few disrupted weeks coming up. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 15th, 2008, 6:43am I will withdraw GnoBot from the tournament until further notice. If OpFor can substitute, then (thanks to the early warning) I won't assign a forfeit to GnoBot. Janzert, are you willing and able? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Dec 15th, 2008, 7:38am Sure that's fine with me. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 15th, 2008, 9:48am Thanks, Janzert. I will put OpFor vs. naveed into the same time slot as GnoBot vs. naveed is now. Unfortunately I can't update the tournament status at the moment because woh's program isn't running for me (how dependent I've become!), but once I get that figured out I will post the changed status to reflect OpFor's substituting for GnoBot. [EDIT] OK, the program magically started working again, so I have updated the tournament status, and replaced the scheduled game. Thanks again, Janzert. Your flexibility is making the tournament a lot easier to run. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by 99of9 on Dec 15th, 2008, 2:23pm Thanks to both of you. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Dec 16th, 2008, 4:08am Fritzlein, do you have any clue what may have caused the problem with the status page tool? Did you got an error message, did you got some output or nothing at all? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 16th, 2008, 7:13am The error behavior has occurred before, always for no apparent reason, and has always vanished for no reason that I can tell. The symptoms are these: There is no error message to the command window. The file ctourn.htm is not produced. The file ctourn.ctn is not produced. Instead a file with a strange name like Mtz*.ctn is produced, where the asterisk is actually some character that displays as a box in Windows Explorer. I'm not sure I remember the characters in the file name correctly, but I'm pretty sure that it is the same name every time the program fails. I can run ctourn.exe again and again to no avail. Rebooting the computer doesn't fix the problem. But sometimes the problem is fixed when I do nothing. I just run ctourn.exe again a few hours later, perhaps without even changing ctourn.txt, and suddenly it outputs ctourn.htm and ctourn.ctn just fine as usual. I know this is the type of thing to drive a programmer crazy. You can tear your hair out trying to track it down, and then it turns out to be operator error. So far it hasn't ever prevented me from getting the correct output eventually, so there's no need to worry. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Dec 16th, 2008, 8:56am Thanks for the elaborate info, Fritzlein. I will have a look and see if I find something that might cause such a behaviour. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 21st, 2008, 9:17pm Round 21 pairings are scheduled. This will be the last round of the Continuous Tournament before the World Championships, in order to give Omar more time to changes the offset of the scheduling tool without messing anyone up. Thanks everyone for playing and making this a great tournament. See you next year! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Dec 22nd, 2008, 4:21am And thank you very much, Fritzlein, for organizing this tournament! It was great fun. I'll be certainly joining again next year. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by chessandgo on Dec 22nd, 2008, 10:34am congrats for organizing the tourney Karl! And big thanks to woh as well! I have not played as much as I would have liked to, but this was a great idea! (and a perennial one I hope :)) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Dec 22nd, 2008, 12:23pm Yes, thanks for running this Fritzlein. This was a great idea and I think worked out really well. Certainly hope it starts up again after the championship is over. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 23rd, 2008, 7:30am I'm glad people had fun with the tournament. I'll definitely start it up again next year if there is enough interest. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Dec 23rd, 2008, 7:46pm Thanks for running this tournament Karl. It was a great idea to start this. It has allowed me to play a many more HH games than I normally would have. I would love to be in it again next year. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by svartalfar17 on Dec 24th, 2008, 12:27am Due to an unforeseen events I will not be available to play on saturday. If there is any possibility of rescheduling, either late thursday (10 pm-12) or early friday (6 or 7 am) (all times my local time) would be great. I apologize for the inconvenience, and if no rescheduling is possible, I understand that the fault belongs entirely to me. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Janzert on Dec 24th, 2008, 11:01am I'm not sure what timezone you're in, so not sure how it compares to my time (EST). I think I would slightly prefer moving it to the Thursday night time, but really whichever works better for you. Janzert |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by svartalfar17 on Dec 24th, 2008, 11:08am I'm in the PST and thursday night would be fine. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 24th, 2008, 1:00pm I think I have changed OpFor vs svartalfar17 to be at 10pm Thursday PST. Let me know if I haven't. :) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by arimaa_master on Dec 27th, 2008, 12:45am Naveed ask me to reschedule our game to anytime on Saturday. So now I see it scheduled 7pm my local time - so -27 to -24 hours works fine to me. (This means 4pm to 7pm Saturday (today :)) my local time). |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 27th, 2008, 7:18am I have moved the game 24 hours earlier, although that is less than three hours from now (yikes!). |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by arimaa_master on Dec 27th, 2008, 9:27am Thx, hope that naveed will be around (If he don´t cath up this game I think it will be still better then tomorrow). I will notify him once again. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by arimaa_master on Dec 27th, 2008, 10:05am I have active notification on this topic but seems to me that nothing came to my e-mail (even nothing to my spam folder). I almost forget about my rescheduled game (coz I didn´t notice it was already rescheduled - I was waiting to that notification e-mail :)) I already sent it to Omar. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Dec 29th, 2008, 10:07am I tried to fix this problem with the forum emails not going out. Seems to work OK for me now, but if it still does not work for you send me a message through the contact page. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by arimaa_master on Dec 30th, 2008, 9:03am on 12/29/08 at 10:07:21, omar wrote:
Ok, thanks. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Tuks on Apr 4th, 2009, 1:23pm i was thinking about blitz arimaa, how hard would it be to set up a blitz tournament kind of set up like this to find out how the rankings change at such speeds. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by akbaggins on Jul 9th, 2010, 2:38am I just wanted to confirm that this tournament is non-operational at the moment. It hasn't been running in 2010 right? |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by woh on Jul 9th, 2010, 2:58am No, this tournament is not running at this moment and hasn't been during 2010. Last rounds (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/ct/status/) were played in december 2010. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Jul 9th, 2010, 3:44am I was running this so that there would be something going on in the "off season" between World Championships. Now, however, there is the Arimaa World League, which is superior replacement. Join a team! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by akbaggins on Jul 9th, 2010, 3:56am I will just as soon as I get a bit stronger :D |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Nombril on Dec 2nd, 2010, 1:49pm Is there any interest in playing a round or two of this in December as warm ups for January? I saw a few people registered for the WC that may not have used the scheduling tool before, and also I wouldn't mind getting a few longer games in. Fritz - if you don't have time or inclination to run it, is it something you or Omar can show me how to do? (If I'm running in it, is it a problem to play as well? Since there aren't prizes at anymore, my impression is that it would be OK...) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Dec 2nd, 2010, 3:41pm I think Karl used to do the pairings manually for this. The open swiss format which allows late join and drop outs could be used as a substitute to do the pairings. I can show you how to run it. I think it is OK for the coordinator to also play in the event as long as they don't have any say in the pairings. I've been doing it with the WC for years :-) |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 2nd, 2010, 5:49pm The Continuous Tournament has outlived its usefulness. I would rather spend the Arimaa time I do have on other things. My idea then was to orchestrate semi-serious games with a way of keeping score so that one would play a better opponent after winning and a weaker one after losing. It worked OK, but also had issues, and has since been superceded by the Arimaa World League, which has a similar purpose but a better format. Future tournament efforts should definitely focus on using Omar's new tournament tool, not only because that is easier, but because it will pressure Omar to keep working out the bugs of that tool and keep adding features to it. A few years ago I was energetic enough to attempt a one-off type of event, but now that I am old and tired, I would want to go through some infrastructure that is less dependent on the commitment of any individual. Nombril, if you want to give folks practice in using the scheduler, I'm sure that can be arranged through Omar's existing tools. That would be much better in the long run than me trying to get you up to speed on the tools that woh gave me, and which I fused to the game room by hand every week. Omar, would you be so kind as to remove the link to the Continuous Tournament from the game room, so that it doesn't keep getting resurrected? TIA |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by omar on Dec 3rd, 2010, 11:07am on 12/02/10 at 17:49:08, Fritzlein wrote:
Done. |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Fritzlein on Dec 3rd, 2010, 2:01pm Thank you! |
||||||||||||
|
Title: Re: Continuous Tournament Post by Nombril on Dec 3rd, 2010, 7:20pm I agree that the AWL can replace the CT in general, I was just trying to figure out if there was anything that could be used when there are only a couple of weeks available. A Swiss-style match up doesn't make sense in the context of just 1 or 2 games, since matching the top against the bottom player will lead to maximizing lopsided games. Getting a 1-day tourney with lots of 1 minute/move games is probably too long of a commitment to get much interest. But, since noone added any interest to mine, I'll just camp out in the game room with my invite flag on and hope someone else wonders by at the same time! |
||||||||||||
|
Arimaa Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1! YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved. |