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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
        
(Message started by: Fritzlein on Jul 3rd, 2010, 12:57pm)
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 3rd, 2010, 12:57pm

on 07/03/10 at 12:46:24, Arimabuff wrote:
If you think that and I am specifically addressing Fritz here by withholding your commentary you're doing the Arimaa community a service then you couldn't be more wrong.

OK, now how about ranting some against Jean?  He gave exactly as much commentary this round as I did.  Please tell him how he is burning down the village and ruining Arimaa for everyone.

I never said that I thought I was doing the community a favor.  I merely said that I would not enjoy giving live commentary knowing that it could be used by cheaters.  I don't expect you to thank me for not giving commentary, but I would expect you to respect my decision and not take inaction as an affront.  
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by jdb on Jul 3rd, 2010, 1:13pm
I have to agree with Arimabuff on this.

There was a single isolated incident. The guilty party has repented.  Adding delays to live games and not giving commentary seems like an over reaction to me.

For most people, arimaa is a fun hobby. The live commentary seemed to be a very popular to enjoy arimaa.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 3rd, 2010, 1:21pm
It's one thing to say that commentary is valuable and another thing to accuse me of burning down the village.  In case you didn't notice, I am really upset.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by chessandgo on Jul 3rd, 2010, 11:36pm
Just to clarify, I don't think anyone else has anything to say against you Karl. We (I think I can speak for all others here) all love what you do for the arimaa community and respect your point of view.


on 07/03/10 at 12:57:22, Fritzlein wrote:
OK, now how about ranting some against Jean?  He gave exactly as much commentary this round as I did.  Please tell him how he is burning down the village and ruining Arimaa for everyone.


:) Not only that, but also I haven't been able to deal with my book publishing before leaving for Chile tonight. I hope that I'll be able to give more arimaa action when I'm back in September. Otherwise I'll have to admit that I'm both burning down the village and flooding it :)
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by rbarreira on Jul 4th, 2010, 12:44am
I don't see why the drama given that people have already devised a good solution -- delaying the moves for spectators (even if the solution is not fully implemented yet... or is it?).

In any case, Arimabuff, even if you think Fritzlein is overreacting you should tone it down a bit IMO. Especially for someone who's had his share of overreactions in the recent past...
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2010, 2:23am
Thanks for the kind words, Jean.  Best of luck getting your book together eventually; it will be a great gift to the Arimaa community when you are done.

Just to clarify, I understand how someone could suggest a move in chat, see that move appear in the game they are commentating, and not get distracted by thoughts that the player could have picked it up from the chat archive.  I respect that choice, that mindset, and the contribution live commentary makes to the community.  I apologize if I have said otherwise.  I don't intend to impose my personal choice on others.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 4th, 2010, 3:16am

on 07/04/10 at 00:44:42, rbarreira wrote:
I don't see why the drama given that people have already devised a good solution -- delaying the moves for spectators (even if the solution is not fully implemented yet... or is it?).

In any case, Arimabuff, even if you think Fritzlein is overreacting you should tone it down a bit IMO. Especially for someone who's had his share of overreactions in the recent past...

I guess it's easy to be misunderstood when you're dealing with a certain type of people.

Though for the rest of you my point is that I value Fritz's commentary and think that losing it is a tragedy for the Arimaa community as a whole.

And I definitely value it more than the remote possibility that some OTHER jerk will use it to cheat in a contest where there's absolutely nothing to gain except maybe a fleeting moment of fame among a couple dozens of people.

So Fritz abstain from any live commentary when there's something at stake like one of Arimaa's prized contests or the annual challenges but for something as innocuous as this I would plead that you reconsider your position. The hypothetic harm that you prevent by not commenting is far lesser than the real harm that you do. And let me repeat that this is a testament to how valuable that commentary is.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by rbarreira on Jul 4th, 2010, 3:29am

on 07/04/10 at 03:16:13, Arimabuff wrote:
I guess it's easy to be misunderstood when you're dealing with a certain type of people.

Though for the rest of you my point is that I value Fritz's commentary and think that losing it is a tragedy for the Arimaa community as a whole.


I thought your point was stated very clearly as being that Fritz's commentary is valuable AND that he was being unreasonable and paranoid by choosing not to provide it.

But I must have misunderstood it due to being a certain type of person...
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:21am

on 07/04/10 at 03:29:53, rbarreira wrote:
I thought your point was stated very clearly as being that Fritz's commentary is valuable AND that he was being unreasonable and paranoid by choosing not to provide it.

But I must have misunderstood it due to being a certain type of person...

Yeah, there's definitely something that you missed and here it is: I am not about to let some random jerk tell me to tone it down without reaction.

If it causes me to be ejected from this site then so be it. I think I am starting to get sick of it anyway.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:28am

on 07/04/10 at 03:16:13, Arimabuff wrote:
The hypothetic harm that you prevent by not commenting is far lesser than the real harm that you do.

Thank you Patrick, for restating your concern without reference to my "rampant paranoia" or to my burning things down.  I am honored that you value my commentary.

Even so, I wish that you would reconsider the perspective that leads you to say that I am doing "real harm" to the community.  I do not think this is fair.  How is it that if I don't give commentary I am harming the community, but anyone else in the community who gives no commentary does not come in for your criticism?  Why do you not refer to the "real harm" than Jean is doing, and has been doing for months?  Your implication that I owe you does nothing to persuade me; quite the reverse.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:39am

on 07/04/10 at 04:28:21, Fritzlein wrote:
Thank you Patrick, for restating your concern without reference to my "rampant paranoia" or to my burning things down.  I am honored that you value my commentary.

Even so, I wish that you would reconsider the perspective that leads you to say that I am doing "real harm" to the community.  I do not think this is fair.  How is it that if I don't give commentary I am harming the community, but anyone else in the community who gives no commentary does not come in for your criticism?  Why do you not refer to the "real harm" than Jean is doing, and has been doing for months?  Your implication that I owe you does nothing to persuade me; quite the reverse.

Fritz, you don't want me to lie to you, do you? If I tell you that you're overreacting it is because that's what I think.

I consider you a great man and next to Omar the greatest contributor to the game of Arimaa but that doesn't mean that I can't disagree with you now does it?
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:53am

on 07/04/10 at 04:39:50, Arimabuff wrote:
Fritz, you don't want me to lie to you, do you? If I tell you that you're overreacting it is because that's what I think.

There is a difference between saying I am over-reacting and accusing me of rampant paranoia.

There is a difference between saying I could be doing something excellent for the community and saying that if I don't do it I am burning the village down.

I am seeking acknowledgement from you that I am not harming the Arimaa community, and it is unfair of you to say that I am.  If such an acknowledgement on your part would be lying, i.e. if you are genuinely convinced that you have a right to accuse me of being destructive, we have little left to discuss.


Quote:
I consider you a great man and next to Omar the greatest contributor to the game of Arimaa but that doesn't mean that I can't disagree with you now does it?

Again, I thank you for the compliment.  You have my full permission to disagree with me.  If you granted me an equal right to disagree with you, you could hardly demand additional contributions of me in the manner that you have done in this thread.  Jean disagrees with me, yet respects my decision.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by 99of9 on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:55am
For those of us who have not been following closely enough to know what started this cascade of events, could someone please link or summarize?

The only reason I ask is that it sounds like someone has violated the circle of trust & trustworthiness that we have previously enjoyed in the arimaa community, and that would indeed be serious news that we would need to form a response to.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:05am

on 07/04/10 at 04:55:08, 99of9 wrote:
For those of us who have not been following closely enough to know what started this cascade of events, could someone please link or summarize?

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=2010awl;action=display;num=1277067962

Summary: 722caasi won his World League game against Nombril by listening in to live chat and using moves suggested by spectators.  I have said that I will no longer give live commentary until the site has built in a greater assurance that players can't use my commentary to cheat.  Several people are of the opinion that the value of live commentary is greater than the likely harm of cheating.  Omar is attempting to set up the server to broadcast live games with a 4-ply delay to all observers except the two players.

To this summary let me add that yesterday I was chatting live about Nevermind vs. Harren, and went so far as to comment on the then-current position.  However, as soon as I made a suggestion that was actually played, I could tell I would not be comfortable giving live commentary any more, for exactly the reasons I suspected.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:06am

on 07/04/10 at 04:53:21, Fritzlein wrote:
There is a difference between saying I am over-reacting and accusing me of rampant paranoia.

There is a difference between saying I could be doing something excellent for the community and saying that if I don't do it I am burning the village down.

I am seeking acknowledgement from you that I am not harming the Arimaa community, and it is unfair of you to say that I am.  If such an acknowledgement on your part would be lying, i.e. if you are genuinely convinced that you have a right to accuse me of being destructive, we have little left to discuss.

Again, I thank you for the compliment.  You have my full permission to disagree with me.  If you granted me an equal right to disagree with you, you could hardly demand additional contributions of me in the manner that you have done in this thread.  Jean disagrees with me, yet respects my decision.

Ok let me rephrase it then. Your commentaries are as potent and addictive as crack cocaine and when you withhold them, then you put people like me in a withdrawal state. ;)

So yes you could be doing something excellent to the community if you resumed commentating in the future but if you don't you'll still be the second best contributor of the game.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:10am

on 07/04/10 at 05:05:54, Fritzlein wrote:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=2010awl;action=display;num=1277067962

Summary: 722caasi won his World League game against Nombril by listening in to live chat and using moves suggested by spectators.  I have said that I will no longer give live commentary until the site has built in a greater assurance that players can't use my commentary to cheat.  Several people are of the opinion that the value of live commentary is greater than the likely harm of cheating.  Omar is attempting to set up the server to broadcast live games with a 4-ply delay to all observers except the two players.

To this summary let me add that yesterday I was chatting live about Nevermind vs. Harren, and went so far as to comment on the then-current position.  However, as soon as I made a suggestion that was actually played, I could tell I would not be comfortable giving live commentary any more, for exactly the reasons I suspected.

Was your commentary on teamspeak or the chatroom?
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by 99of9 on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:22am

on 07/04/10 at 05:05:54, Fritzlein wrote:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=2010awl;action=display;num=1277067962

Summary: 722caasi won his World League game against Nombril by listening in to live chat and using moves suggested by spectators.

Thanks.  This is very sad news.  I will address further comment there.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:23am

on 07/04/10 at 05:06:15, Arimabuff wrote:
Ok let me rephrase it then. Your commentaries are as potent and addictive as crack cocaine and when you withhold them, then you put people like me in a withdrawal state. ;)

So yes you could be doing something excellent to the community if you resumed commentating in the future but if you don't you'll still be the second best contributor of the game.

Thank you, Patrick, for the compliment and for recasting the issue.


on 07/04/10 at 05:10:01, Arimabuff wrote:
Was your commentary on teamspeak or the chatroom?

I was talking in the chat room.

TeamSpeak is an alternative, but it is not authenticated.  Anyone can log in to TeamSpeak under any name.  Rabbits made a reasonable suggestion that everyone who logs into TeamSpeak also log into the chatroom, (which is authenticated) to say, e.g., "The Sconibulus in TeamSpeak is the real Sconibulus."

This would be doable, although I foresaw myself chattering away in TeamSpeak, abruptly stopping when someone new logged into TeamSpeak without having reported in the chatroom, and being told by my listeners to continue talking rather than letting my paranoia interrupt things.  At that moment yesterday I wasn't prepared to deal with being told what to do.

I would, however, be willing to give rabbits' suggestion a try, on the understanding that I won't be called names if I withhold commentary at all times when someone is in TeamSpeak without being authenticated via the chatroom.  The game Tuks vs. Adanac in three and a half hours could be a good test case.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by rbarreira on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:33am

on 07/04/10 at 05:23:43, Fritzlein wrote:
TeamSpeak is an alternative, but it is not authenticated.


I believe Teamspeak allows authentication, although I'm not sure how it works. This is in the description of TS 3:


Quote:
TeamSpeak 3 introduces a new authentication system. Instead of using a combination of username and password, the TeamSpeak 3 Client creates unique identities which are stored and tracked by every TeamSpeak 3 Server you're connecting to. For administrators, this eliminates the need to manually register a username and password with the server and allows administrators to assign a set of permissions to your identity which can be automatically recalled by the server every time you connect. The end result is strengthened security and improved administration with eliminated username and password issues, effectively making the process of administering users far less tedious than ever before.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Sconibulus on Jul 4th, 2010, 5:36am
That sounds like a good solution for the moment, and hopefully this will be completely resolved with a working delay before the next large event.

There is one problem however, in the event that someone doesn't authenticate within a certain period of time, is there a way to kick them out of the room? I'm thinking of situations that sometimes arise, at least on my end, of opening everything in preparation for the game, then having to go walk my dogs, eat, or similar and leave for a while.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2010, 6:17am

on 07/04/10 at 05:36:13, Sconibulus wrote:
There is one problem however, in the event that someone doesn't authenticate within a certain period of time, is there a way to kick them out of the room? I'm thinking of situations that sometimes arise, at least on my end, of opening everything in preparation for the game, then having to go walk my dogs, eat, or similar and leave for a while.

Logging in as Korhil and being unresponsive would be a good cover at the moment.  :)  I believe there is an authenticated admin user that can boot people, but that only Omar knows the password.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2010, 6:19am

on 07/04/10 at 05:33:20, rbarreira wrote:
I believe Teamspeak allows authentication, although I'm not sure how it works.

Authenticating TeamSpeak was my preferred solution until someone suggested the 4-ply spectator delay, which should work even better.
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Arimabuff on Jul 4th, 2010, 7:04am

on 07/04/10 at 06:19:00, Fritzlein wrote:
Authenticating TeamSpeak was my preferred solution until someone suggested the 4-ply spectator delay, which should work even better.

I hope people can also authenticate themselves by saying hello. My computer I rather slow and I can't have too many programs running at the same time. But I guess you'll easily recognize my voice, won't you?
Title: Re: So we burn the village in order to save it!!!
Post by Korhil on Jul 4th, 2010, 4:59pm

on 07/04/10 at 06:17:02, Fritzlein wrote:
Logging in as Korhil and being unresponsive would be a good cover at the moment.  :)

I'll choose to take that as a compliment :)

Noone else would have anywhere near the amount of inactive time I have. Many other people do connect, but wont respond when I try to communicate with them. It's not just me!


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