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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
        
(Message started by: arimaaphile on Jan 17^th, 2012, 9:20pm)

Title: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by arimaaphile on Jan 17^th, 2012, 9:20pm

I have stopped playing Arimaa for a few months already. At least once a week (or every other week, depending on my mood) I visit the forum, check a few games and then I leave. I hesitate to play. I just want to climb the ladder of bots but I cannot even bring myself to play bots let alone human beings.
It might sound ridiculous but the reason is that (I believe) I'm scared of losing. I want to play Arimaa because I enjoy the game but when I think I could lose next game and go to bed without being able to sleep all night thinking about this move and that move I doubt whether I can afford losing.
By contrast, when I play Go and lose over and over again I don't feel the same way. So I play Go every week even so I lose a lot more than I win. However, when it comes to Arimaa I just cannot bring myself to do the same.
So I have two basic questions to anyone who would not mind graciously offer their suggestions.
1) Did you ever experience such feelings, discomfort or fear or X, W, Z (whatever you prefer to call it - something which interferes with your desire to play and affects it)?
2) And if you did experience such feelings, how do you overcome it?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by thomastanck on Jan 17^th, 2012, 10:14pm

Sometimes I play games where I clearly know I'll lose, because I think they are more interesting.

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by Fritzlein on Jan 17^th, 2012, 10:17pm

Yes, I have at times in the past been so afraid of losing that I didn't play humans at all, and only played bots I felt sure of beating. This state of mind was crippling to my enjoyment of Arimaa. I am not sure how (or whether!) I got over it, but last night I had what might be a relevant experience. I was beating Sharp2011Blitz when I got distracted and lost. I was extremely frustrated and angry, and felt that I would not be able to sleep because of that loss. Then my wife said, "Remember, it's just a dumb game." Somehow, I was able to take her words to heart and shrug off the loss, which means that now I won't hesitate to play again. Maybe that story is not helpful to you, but it is what just happened to me. :)

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by ginrunner on Jan 17^th, 2012, 10:21pm

on 01/17/12 at 22:17:57, Fritzlein wrote:

The moral I got from this story is arimaaphile needs to find a good wife?

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by Nombril on Jan 17^th, 2012, 10:40pm

Here are a few ideas from a previous discussion.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=talk;action=display;num=1321440678

I play a lot of different games, and in many you can blame the cards, luck, chance, other players decisions in 4 player games, etc. In Arimaa (and other perfect knowledge, 2 player games), it can be tough to face the fact that you got outplayed.

So I'm surprised Arimaa and Go feel differently to you, since neither involve luck.

I guess Go has a deep mythos of expecting it to take a lifetime of study to reach high ranks, and Arimaa is so new it is possible to expect to reach the top relatively "immediately" in comparison?

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by Migi on Jan 18^th, 2012, 3:53pm

This is a phenomenon that exists in basically every game, but most of all in games with a rating system. In StarCraft this has gotten the name "ladder fear". If you've spent time getting better at the game that wasn't directly through playing, like reading or discussing strategies, or watching the best people play in a tournament, you like to think that that wasn't a waste of time. You like to think you've actually gotten better, but you're not sure. Playing rated ladder games gives you an objective measure of exactly how good you really are. People often don't want to confront that, because they're afraid that their rating will tell them that they've indeed not improved. So instead of playing, they read more strategies, watch more tournament videos, and only make the problem worse.

In Arimaa, it's even worse if your goal is to reach the top of the bot ladder. Playing against a bot isn't an exciting game that swings back and forth. Instead, your advantage slowly climbs up little by little, because you're strategically better than the bot, and takes a huge downswing every time you make a tactical mistake. The first 20% of a game against a bot is fun, the next 80% is just trying to not make any dumb mistakes, and not really learning much.

What also doesn't help is that a game of Arimaa takes up a big chunk of time, compared to other games. Even a blitz game of Arimaa (which feels "too fast", at least to me) takes 20 to 30 minutes. In comparison, a blitz chess game with 5 minutes on the clock doesn't feel "too fast" at all.

And another thing, even if you play unrated, your game shows up in the "live games" list, where people can watch as you play, then in the "recent games" list for people to comment on, and then it ends up in the game archives for all the machine-learning bots to analyze. So you know that every time you make a blunder, other people will see it.

I don't know what you can do against this fear of losing. I wish I did, cause I have it too. One thing I've been doing that helps a little bit is to take a screenshot of every game-losing blunder. I review these screenshots every time before I start playing a new game (it takes only a few seconds). It means that even if you make a game-losing blunder after 30 minutes of slowly building up your advantage, at least you get something to remind yourself to never make that mistake ever again.

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by chessandgo on Jan 18^th, 2012, 6:39pm

on 01/18/12 at 15:53:02, Migi wrote:

Playing against a bot isn't an exciting game that swings back and forth. Instead, your advantage slowly climbs up little by little, because you're strategically better than the bot, and takes a huge downswing every time you make a tactical mistake. The first 20% of a game against a bot is fun, the next 80% is just trying to not make any dumb mistakes, and not really learning much.

Isn't it the other way around though, the beginning is boring as you stay in your "confidence zone" without learning anything new, while when things go crazy it gets fascinating as you've got to work hard, think outside of what you're used to and thus learn plenty of new things? :)

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by Migi on Jan 19^th, 2012, 9:16am

on 01/18/12 at 18:39:14, chessandgo wrote:

Yeah, against a human, sure. And maybe against Marwin/Sharp too, I can only speak for my personal experience with the lower ranked bots. It's good to hear that apparently this gets better over time :)

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by clauchau on Jan 20^th, 2012, 8:54am

I've been experiencing it too, in games and in life more generally, increased by time pressure.

I overcome it by remembering my states of mind when I enjoyed improvizing jazz music versus when I felt miserable trying to.

It's about floating versus thinking too much, especially too linearly and too closely to details. It's a paradox because you may fear at first that the game or your life are not worth going through like that, mindlessly, and that you may even have fewer chances to win or be responsible for your life. But the opposite happens indeed, at least it works for me - I then feel even more responsible for what happens, more aware, mindfuller, happier.

By floating I mean getting some distance from our hectic rational mind. Seeing the whole picture, the whole board, the whole game history, the transcendal dimensions of us. And switching to some confidence that something good is going to happen. Because it worked for me in the past. A bit like feeling cool and mystic.

I observe myself and let intuitive moves get out of myself. They are not going to be that random. Instead, they may amaze you. Playing and living then tends to be more exciting, adventurous, full of surprises. By opposition to expected computer steps in a program.

As an unexpected result, you are not only going to feel better and go through novel experiences, you are also going to win more often !

It works too for writing a letter or for simply being there every day with yourself and your relatives.

Remember the 2003 movie "The Last Samourai", where the American character fails to win in japanese fencing pratice. His opponent tells him "mind the sword, mind the people watch, mind enemy - -too many mind." Once the American manages to stop thinking too consciously, he feels better and even wins.

I hope I didn't sound like a guru !

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by omar on Jan 20^th, 2012, 1:35pm

Thanks for sharing your feeling arimaaphile. I guess I'm quite the opposite. If I lose, I feel like there is something to concur here and want to play again. It makes the occasional victory all the more sweeter. The one thing I don't do is look back and dwell about the lose. Right after the game I might step through and see where I could have made better moves, but after that I don't think about it.

One thing which is critical for making me want to play again, is that the strength of the opponent needs to be close to mine. After the lose I should feel like I might have been able to win if I played a little better. I should feel that I can make progress. If this feeling isn't there then I get turned off.

When I was very young, I used to play chess with my uncle quite a bit. I didn't realize it at the time, but he would play in such a way that I felt like I was going to beat him but in the end he would win the game. I would challenge him again and again. Occasionally he would let me win, but I didn't know that and thought it was due to my good play. Eventually I improved to the point where we really were equal.

In high school I used to play a lot of chess too. But I encountered some players that were way better than me because they had memorized a lot of opening tricks. I checked out chess opening books and though I tried to catch up to them, I realized it would require a lot of serious study and memorization. I more of the type that likes to derive things then memorize them. That's when I realized I was never going to become a master level chess player. But I still enjoyed playing chess casually against others close to my skill.

But you are quite right that different game make you feel very different when you lose. I think this might an innate feeling because you see it in children also. I have often seen kids cry after losing a chess game. I agree with what Nombril said about games with chance give you a excuse to write off the lose due to luck, but in games with no chance you bear the full burden. Beyond that though I think there is also an element of how intense the game felt to you when you were playing it. My guess would be that Arimaa feels a lot more intense to you than Go.

I think learning to not agonize over loses is very useful for dealing with the situations that arise in life.

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by novacat on Jan 21^st, 2012, 6:03am

on 01/20/12 at 13:35:40, omar wrote:

I think learning to not agonize over loses is very useful for dealing with the situations that arise in life.

Very true.

I struggle with letting things go. I suggest finding some friendly opponents, get to know them a little bit, and think of games with them as friendly skirmishes rather than daunting challenges. When the other player doesn't take the result too seriously, it helps me as well. That's why I like playing against Omar :)

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by Fritzlein on Jan 21^st, 2012, 9:39am

Let me thank everyone who who contributed to this thread. I lost again last night, and was initially very frustrated and angry. But then I thought about everything that has been said in this thread, all the different philosophical hints, and somehow I was able to move beyond the shame and rage. Yet another reason the Arimaa community is uniquely excellent.

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by arimaaphile on Jan 22^nd, 2012, 7:48pm

Friends,

Thank you for your suggestions. I can see there are lots of good ideas to use and I hope at least few of them will help me (marriage is out from the start). :)
I think the reason I feel pressure/fear of losing in Arimaa rather than in Go is that I prefer Arimaa over Go. I would also agree that rating somewhat affects me though I try not to take it too seriously.
In terms of playing intuitively, I still try to relay on intuition but I think there comes time that analysis takes over intuition simply because one knows too much to overwhelmingly rely on intuition. Once I spot potential horse basket or goal threat, more than half of intuition flies out window.
I remember once I was checking old messages and I found that there were teaching plays (is that how you say it? - two players play game and the stronger one comments on moves etc.). I wonder why no one practices that kind of staff. I think it would be good if occasionally there would be such opportunities.
What else...yes, on the interesting part of the game. I found middle phase of the game more interesting than opening (I feel more comfortable in the opening).

Title: Re: How to overcome fear/pressure of losing?
Post by Arimabuff on Jan 25^th, 2012, 11:37am

If you can't play... commentate.