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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> Botbashing: Most games at once?
        
(Message started by: browni3141 on Sep 13^th, 2012, 11:43pm)

Title: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 13^th, 2012, 11:43pm

What is the largest number of simultaneous games played by a single player against bots, excluding postals? I think this would be an interesting record to keep track of, and it could be on the botbashing page. I think there should be a rule that you can't play the same bot in two of your simultaneous games. All games must be won to count. Also, all of the games must be started before you can make your first move in any one of them. I think I could personally do at least 20.

I'd also be interested in seeing how many games someone can take against Briareus2012CC, the current highest rated CC bot. Of course you have to win all of them.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 13^th, 2012, 11:50pm

We stopped trying for this record, because it started crashing the server. I remember a time when we could somehow get twelve CC bots going at the same time and, although they all played weaker, they would never error out. But more recently any time someone has tried to start even six or eight CC bots simultaneously, the server simply can't handle it. I don't know why.

It is better not to keep a public record of most simultaneous bots played. I won't even tell you who holds the old record. If anyone is publicly known to have the record, and what that record is, someone will try to break it, and we don't want that. This is also the reason that Guinness Book of World Records no longer keeps such records as, "shortest time to eat a piano" etc.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by rbarreira on Sep 14^th, 2012, 6:08am

I guess bots are increasing their memory usage faster than the server gets its memory upgraded.

Most bots probably have a setting for the hash size, so the memory usage is at least partly customizable. Only Omar knows what setting he used for each bot.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Arimabuff on Sep 14^th, 2012, 7:47am

on 09/13/12 at 23:50:27, Fritzlein wrote:

We stopped trying for this record, because it started crashing the server. I remember a time when we could somehow get twelve CC bots going at the same time and, although they all played weaker, they would never error out. But more recently any time someone has tried to start even six or eight CC bots simultaneously, the server simply can't handle it. I don't know why.

It is better not to keep a public record of most simultaneous bots played. I won't even tell you who holds the old record. If anyone is publicly known to have the record, and what that record is, someone will try to break it, and we don't want that. This is also the reason that Guiness Book of World Records no longer keeps such records as, "shortest time to eat a piano" etc.

They used to though, as a child someone gave me one as a birthday present ( I think) an there was something about people eating bicycles... The tires must really be chewy though...

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by rbarreira on Sep 14^th, 2012, 7:56am

Wow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 14^th, 2012, 8:23am

I thought that might be a problem, but I was hoping it wouldn't be. I wanted to try and play and beat every single CC bot at once ;D.

I think at least I will try to see if I can beat 3-4 Briareus2012CC bots simultaneously.

Another approach would be to use shorter time controls. With fast I doubt much more than 8 could be handled. Would 8 fast bots crash the server? I guess you already said that 6-8 bots starts giving the server trouble.

I'm sure two lightning games or four blitz games wouldn't crash the server. Maybe I'll try four blitz games. Maybe someday I'll even try to beat the four highest rated blitz bots simultaneously.

I'd be pretty amazed if someone could do three lightning games, but I think that might be impossible without a faster interface.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 14^th, 2012, 8:35am

on 09/14/12 at 08:23:59, browni3141 wrote:

I'm sure two lightning games or four blitz games wouldn't crash the server. Maybe I'll try four blitz games. Maybe someday I'll even try to beat the four highest rated blitz bots simultaneously.

That one I'll tell you; aaaa has beaten four blitz bots simultaneously.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Hippo on Sep 14^th, 2012, 4:31pm

In all cases nobody could persuade me to eat our piano. I prefer my doughters to play it.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Arimabuff on Sep 15^th, 2012, 9:16am

on 09/14/12 at 16:31:09, Hippo wrote:

In all cases nobody could persuade me to eat our piano. I prefer my doughters to play it.

Not without seasoning anyway...

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Arimabuff on Sep 15^th, 2012, 9:21am

on 09/14/12 at 07:56:17, rbarreira wrote:

Wow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Lotito

Looks like the French reputation as gourmets is taking a serious beating here...

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 19^th, 2012, 9:42pm

Jeez, Fritz, it looks like you can't even do eight CC bots at once. :P
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=22375
As of this posting these are the top 4 rated blitz bots
bot_Sharp2011Blitz
bot_Marwin2011Blitz
bot_Marwin2010Blitz
bot_GnoBot2009Blitz
Can anyone beat them all simultaneously?
I can't even seem to beat sharp consistently yet, so that one would be hard at about 7.5 seconds per move (without pondering). I could probably target it's weaknesses to increase my chances though.

Edit: I will be looking at the games database to see what the record is, but do not worry, I will not share it with others and I will do my best to resist the temptation to beat it ;)

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 19^th, 2012, 11:11pm

on 09/19/12 at 21:42:34, browni3141 wrote:

I will do my best to resist the temptation to beat it ;)

No need to resist temptation to beat the record. You can't beat it because any attempt will crash the server before the games even get to official status of three moves. You merely need to resist the temptation to try.

on 09/19/12 at 21:42:34, browni3141 wrote:

Jeez, Fritz, it looks like you can't even do eight CC bots at once. :P

Yeah, I'm pretty lame. I almost time out from playing eight postal games at once. ::)

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 20^th, 2012, 1:10am

on 09/19/12 at 23:11:36, Fritzlein wrote:

That's what I meant of course. Out of curiousity, do you think P1/P2 bots would crash the server? They would certainly use less CPU, and maybe less memory? Maybe you're not the right person to ask, but maybe your experience at the site has yet another answer for me.

Quote:

Yeah, I'm pretty lame. I almost time out from playing eight postal games at once. ::)

This made me laugh :). It would be nice if a strong bot like Lucy was up regularly again to play blitz against. I bet those postals have been slowing you down :P

I was way too weak when Lucy was up before. I think I went 1-14. I want some revenge, Swynndla!

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 20^th, 2012, 9:18am

on 09/20/12 at 01:10:19, browni3141 wrote:

That's what I meant of course. Out of curiousity, do you think P1/P2 bots would crash the server? They would certainly use less CPU, and maybe less memory?

My understanding is that P1 and P2 bots use just as much memory and CPU, while they are running, as the CC bots. The lightening of load would be when they shut down after making a move, releasing resources, and waiting to be re-instantiated when it is their turn to move again. If the bots happened to not be on move at the same time, they wouldn't be fighting each other for resources. Caveat: this may no longer be true with newer bots that use AEI to avoid shutting down between moves.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Hippo on Sep 20^th, 2012, 10:16am

It seems to me these simultaneous records should use bots run away the server. But it would need cooperation of their developers ... of course it will not be the same bots as on server thanks to different hardware ...

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by mistre on Sep 20^th, 2012, 10:19am

Fritz, I remember when you used to regularly play 4 blitz bots simultaneously (Bomb, Gnobot, Clueless, and Aamira) and win all 4. I was amazed on how you could do this.

Please correct me if my memory is not accurate.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 20^th, 2012, 11:11pm

on 09/20/12 at 10:19:13, mistre wrote:

Did I really beat four blitz bots at once? If so I have no memory of it. We'll have to appeal to browni3141 for the results of his database query. I believe the server could handle an attempt to break that record.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 21^st, 2012, 12:01am

on 09/20/12 at 23:11:44, Fritzlein wrote:

I have been busy the past few days, and haven't been able to write some code to find these games. I should have time tomorrow, maybe.

I've made two attempts at beating the four strongest blitz bots. In the first I lost all four games. Lag made things nearly impossible. In the second I timed out a better position, let a better position get away from me and lost, lost a third game and won only one. It is difficult to do this with the strongest bots, but I bet I could do it with weaker ones. Maybe I could even do 5 ~1900 rated blitz bots at once.

One of the bots changes it's setup in unrated mode, which makes things a little easier. I don't know if this is good or bad ;)

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 21^st, 2012, 1:09pm

Wow, I didn't realize how much data there was to download...
I'll have to go somewhere with faster internet.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 21^st, 2012, 3:22pm

The Readme does not account for all of the fields it seems. Are they the same in every file? I'm going to continue assuming they are because things would be a little more complicated if they weren't.

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Sep 21^st, 2012, 9:58pm

5 blitz games at once. All bots beaten. Brain hurts.
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=244870

Title: Re: Botbashing: Most games at once?
Post by browni3141 on Oct 20^th, 2012, 8:44pm

on 09/20/12 at 23:11:44, Fritzlein wrote:

According to my program, you achieved the feat exactly once. There is one type of case that I know it will miss, though.

It turns out one of the games was commented :)
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=61861
Of course, winning 4 games played simultaneously is not a record anymore ;)

You may not hold the record for most blitz simul wins, but you do hold it for most simul wins.

Edit: Here are all the successful blitz simuls of at least four games:

Fritzlein:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=61857
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=61858
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=61859
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=61861

aaaa:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=79723
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=79727
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=79730
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=79731

bot_Bomb2005Blitz (this shouldn't count, since it was omar bashing, not bot bashing ;)):

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=129646
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=129647
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=129650
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=129651

browni3141:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=244870
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=244871
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=244872
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=244873
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=244874

chessandgo had 6 blitz wins, but four of them were by forfeit so I am not counting this. I'll go through the rest of the games to make sure they are valid wins.

Edit: I used the condition that all games were started within 120 seconds of eachother. The case that my program misses is if one game not of the simul is started by the same player playing the simul and finishes between when two of the games of the simul finish.