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        Arimaa >> General Discussion >> When would you resign? 
        
(Message started by: hyperpape on Feb 22^nd, 2013, 1:51pm)

Title: When would you resign?
Post by hyperpape on Feb 22^nd, 2013, 1:51pm

Let's look at a game that wound down very slowly: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=256353&s=w

When would you resign?

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Trick on Feb 22^nd, 2013, 3:04pm

I was told not to resign when I first came here last week. ;)

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by browni3141 on Feb 22^nd, 2013, 7:36pm

In general I resign when I don't want to play anymore, usually due to the fact that the position is nearly absolutely hopeless.
In that game I would resign after 40s almost for sure, possibly slightly earlier if it were not an event game. It's just ridiculous to me to keep playing in such a position. Maybe I'd capture the horse out of spite, and then resign :P

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by hyperpape on Feb 22^nd, 2013, 7:50pm

on 02/22/13 at 15:04:46, Trick wrote:

I was told not to resign when I first came here last week. ;)

You should rarely resign as a beginner. The lessons are too valuable. I'm polling decent (better than me ::) players).

In general, Arimaa has a lot of traps to it, so unless you're really good, winning a won game is tough.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by chessandgo on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 6:51am

Yeah, browni gave me crap in the chatroom for not resgining. However, as a recovered chess player, I feel pretty good about not resigning. Even for a chess player, I used to resign ridiculously early. Don't tempt me into falling back into my old ways :)

If your grief is that the game lasted too long, I'll put half the blame on Boo for not going for a goal attack earlier, and shoulder the second half.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by hyperpape on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 8:47am

Interesting. I am not a chess player, but had thought that the norms of chess would favor resigning in such a position.

I thought about saying something like "don't take this personally, chessandgo." I wasn't watching the game, and I'm not annoyed.

I think a lot of Arimaa players do take the approach of never resigning.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by robinz on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 9:55am

I resign when I know the game is lost - to me this is normal in all "serious" abstract strategy games. While I know it is discouraged here, I'm not really sure why - I think it's supposedly for the sake of the spectators, but I doubt they enjoy seeing a foregone conclusion being wrapped up.

But then, these days I only play autopostal games of Arimaa, and in this context I think the argument for resigning is much easier to make. Who wants to sit through 2 or 3 more weeks of pointless moves while your opponent finishes you off? I have had at least one opponent deliberately push my rabbit onto the goal line when in a lost position, which I thought was a cute way of resigning, and I have done the same thing myself since.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 10:39am

on 02/22/13 at 13:51:31, hyperpape wrote:

Let's look at a game that wound down very slowly: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=256353&s=w

When would you resign?

I would probably resign on move 40, if I didn't get demoralized and resign sooner, but I thoroughly admire chessandgo for fighting to the death. I wish I were more like him. He has the heart of a champion, and that may be as much responsible for his winning four Arimaa World Championships as his objective skill at the game. Indeed, he might second my guess that I am his equal in strategy and tactics, but he has bested me in tournament results because he has the better attitude, which makes him the better fighter. Mostly games are won and lost by knowledge and skill, but in the close ones, psychology can be the deciding factor.

on 02/22/13 at 19:36:20, browni3141 wrote:

In general I resign when I don't want to play anymore

I'm sure the primary guiding principle will always be quitting when you don't feel like continuing. In addition to the principle of "quitting when you don't feel like continuing", however, there needs to be some level of respect for one's opponent. This is a tricky business, because opponents don't all feel the same.

One opponent might feel that you are expressing confidence in their ability to convert a win if you don't make them play it out. They might be flattered. In my youth I felt that way about chess. Once I suggested to my opponent that he resign in an absolutely hopeless position, and his coach cussed me out for it after the game. From this I learned that it is dangerous to try to impose my ideas about resignation on someone else.

On the other hand, your opponent might be enjoying the game for the sake of the game, and be miffed that being behind is all it takes to make you quit. Once in the Arimaa gameroom my opponent resigned when I got the upper hand, and then immediately challenged me to another game. That made me think, "You aren't in this for the joy of struggle; you only enjoy it when you are winning." So I let them find someone else to play and experience the joy of winning.

I'm definitely not trying to say consideration for your opponent should override your own feelings. Yes, at some point a game can get so lopsided it no longer feels like a struggle. It doesn't feel like real Arimaa to be fighting on when you have too little to fight with. Also I agree with robinz that the longer the time control, the fewer the benefits and the greater the personal sacrifice (both time and effort) in continuing when you don't want to.

I just wanted to point out that it is respectful, when considering resignation, to not only think of what you personally are getting out of playing on, but also to consider your opponent's feelings. Some time you might be in a position where you are playing on out of respect rather than pure enjoyment, and then it can be useful to remember the reasons people have given for playing on as emotional tips rather than as mandates. Dwell on the possibility of coming from behind and the probability of learning something by fighting to the end, not as fetters imposed on you, but as ways to enjoy doing something you had already decided to do for another reason. And maybe, just maybe, you can feel happy that you are behaving like chessandgo, the greatest Arimaa champion of all time.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Boo on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 12:52pm

Quote:

Let's look at a game that wound down very slowly: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=256353&s=w

When would you resign?

You should never resign event games. The opponent might disconnect having goal in 1.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by robinz on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 12:59pm

on 02/23/13 at 12:52:31, Boo wrote:

You should never resign event games. The opponent might disconnect having goal in 1.

I'm sorry - but why would you ever want to win in this way? Even in a world championship game, there is hardly big money involved - why would you accept a "win" reached by pure luck when you had a lost position.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Boo on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 2:00pm

Quote:

Have you ever played friendly a chess blitz game, and had a completely lost position and get a win because opponent runs out of time and you have just one pawn remaining which was going to be captured the next turn? No? It is hard to explain then. Why do people keep playing in deadly lost positions, even it is a friendly game? Maybe they have fun hoping for a miracle? And they are happy when they see a miracle happen.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Hippo on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 3:22pm

Have you seen clyring x Nombril game where at 59g Rd7 was goal at 2? And the game really ended at 60 ...

Yes, I was happy at WC2011 winning against Harren to his disconnection, but I was offering him my resignation ... .

Boo won on rabbits disconnection when rabbits had goal in 2 on the board ...

Resigning in event games and espacially WC is a bad habbit, bad connection is the part of the game :(.
Resigning in causal games ... I would ask the opponent if he don't mind me resigning ...

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by browni3141 on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 3:35pm

on 02/23/13 at 10:39:46, Fritzlein wrote:

I just wanted to point out that it is respectful, when considering resignation, to not only think of what you personally are getting out of playing on, but also to consider your opponent's feelings. Some time you might be in a position where you are playing on out of respect rather than pure enjoyment, and then it can be useful to remember the reasons people have given for playing on as emotional tips rather than as mandates. Dwell on the possibility of coming from behind and the probability of learning something by fighting to the end, not as fetters imposed on you, but as ways to enjoy doing something you had already decided to do for another reason. And maybe, just maybe, you can feel happy that you are behaving like chessandgo, the greatest Arimaa champion of all time.

But in my eyes I do play to the very end. There are some positions that will simply not be lost by a competent player, ignoring possibilities that that player not be able to continue playing. If I win because my opponent was abducted by aliens (unkind enough to provide him with internet access), then I have not won because of the strength of my moves, and I don't really deserve to win in my opinion. When there is absolutely no reasonable (somewhat subjective, I know) hope that you can win, the only reasons I can think of to continue playing are hoping that your opponent will time-out, which I think is in a way worse than losing in a long time control game, hoping that your opponent makes a completely brain dead move that not even a novice would make, which is not respecting your opponent's strength, or playing on just because of the pressure from the community to do so. I do not respect or admire anybody that plays on for these reasons. I'm sorry for being so harsh, but this is how I feel. Someone feel free to bring their own reason as to why they continue playing, and I may change my mind, but it's unlikely.

The last sentence I have a problem with. Think of all the chess and Arimaa world champions you know of. Right off the top of my head there is one of each that I would not be happy to behave like.

Quote:

I'm not sure I've had that situation exactly, but I'm sure I've probably won bullet games on time where I was down to my last piece and losing. Bullet/blitz is completely different. The clock is a part of the game, and winning on time is much easier to justify. Few would want Arimaa World Championship games to be won on time because one player couldn't continue playing. Optimally, ALL games would be decided without the clock being a significant factor. How would you feel if you were in the final game with chessandgo or whomever, and he was winning, you without hope of winning on the board, and your opponent timed-out, therefore making you world champion? Would you feel good about that? Would you consider yourself the legitimate world champion? I wouldn't.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by chessandgo on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 5:23pm

browni's post made me realize that, were it not for hanzack, I would be the worst behaved arimaa champ ever. Thank you hanzack.

Oh, and thank you Fritz. Although you are, as always, way (way) too kind with me :)

In a clearly won/lost position, I switch to "win in fewest move possible" mode. I think it's good training, especially in a tournament game. There is always a different kind of pressure to a WC game. We don't get to play world champ games often, so we might as well play the win-in-fewest-moves game. Even more than goal-attack training, having more goal-attack-in-high-pressure-environment experience is very valuable.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by robinz on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 6:08pm

on 02/23/13 at 14:00:10, Boo wrote:

Yes I have, although not for a very long time ago now (I haven't played any chess for more or less 10 years). Blitz games are different, as you both know that the possibility of a sudden loss on time is a reality, even in the most completely won position. And, to return to an Arimaa World Championship game, I think it is fine to play on if you think it possible that your opponent will lose on time, even in a won position.

It wasn't this possibility that I was arguing against, it was playing on in a totally lost position, presumably when one's opponent has plenty of time, purely because they might disconnect and gift us an win that is nothing to do with either how well we played in the game or how well we managed our time.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by browni3141 on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 6:50pm

on 02/23/13 at 17:23:05, chessandgo wrote:

browni's post made me realize that, were it not for hanzack, I would be the worst behaved arimaa champ ever. Thank you hanzack.

Perhaps, but it wouldn't even have been an insult to call you the worst behaved Arimaa champ ever ;)

Quote:

Oh, and thank you Fritz. Although you are, as always, way (way) too kind with me :)

You can count on Fritzlein to often be too kind to you, and for me to often openly speak my mind :)

Quote:

Even more than goal-attack training, having more goal-attack-in-high-pressure-environment experience is very valuable.

This is probably the best argument for playing to the win condition that I've heard, but we have EEE for that :P
Also, it seems to me bots also give plenty of practice in this area, since they have better short-term tactics than humans on average and they [almost] never resign.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 8:48pm

on 02/23/13 at 15:35:34, browni3141 wrote:

How would you feel if you were in the final game with chessandgo or whomever, and he was winning, you without hope of winning on the board, and your opponent timed-out, therefore making you world champion? Would you feel good about that? Would you consider yourself the legitimate world champion? I wouldn't.

Of course I wouldn't feel good about my opponent having technical difficulties, but I would feel good about having fought to the last drop of blood, for reasons mentioned earlier. You are welcome to consider the win illegitimate, but it wouldn't be the fact that I wouldn't give up that made the win illegitimate, it would be the timeout. Or are you saying it is my responsibility to resign in order to prevent my opponent from timing out? (and also, by extension, my responsibility to prevent him from losing by distraction, exhaustion, seizure, and alien abduction)

I shared my cautionary tale about what happened to me once when I told someone else he should resign against me in a chess game. Go ahead and feel how you feel, but be prepared for a tongue-lashing next time you tell your opponent he ought to give up.

Quote:

I do not respect or admire anybody that plays on for these reasons. I'm sorry for being so harsh, but this is how I feel.

I will not respect or admire anyone who resigns because browni said it would be illegitmate to play on. I'm sorry for being harsh, but browni is an oatmeal cookie. With too many raisins. :P

Just kidding. In fact, you didn't respond to the thrust of my argument, which was that you should respect your opponent, which could mean different things to different people at different times. I don't want to get into dueling absolute statements, because there will always be an extreme case that makes an extreme statement look ridiculous. Indeed, I was explicit that even my "respect your opponent" statement was not absolute. I believe that you have to balance between consulting your own desires of when to resign and the desires of your opponent to keep playing or not.

And Omar, even though he pushes a "never resign" agenda, has enough respect for the wishes of the players to program a "resign" button into the game client. Clearly his position isn't absolute either.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by browni3141 on Feb 23^rd, 2013, 9:34pm

I would definitely never advise an opponent to resign whilst the game is still in progress, even if it's done in the politest way possible, but I do have an opinion about when it's appropriate to play on, and when it isn't. I don't think anyone is obligated to resign at any time, but I think there are times when it's ridiculous to continue playing.
About respecting your opponent, I think it's somewhat important, but I believe the priority should be when YOU think it's appropriate to resign. What if your opponent expected you to go on after losing your elephant (full board) for with no compensation? I would not do that. I would almost definitely resign immediately regardless of what my opponent wants. In an average position, I would also not resign after I lost a rabbit for no compensation regardless of what my opponent wants.

Quote:

I will not respect or admire anyone who resigns because browni said it would be illegitmate to play on.

Me neither ;)
Ultimately, people need to make their own decisions. If they follow my judgement just because of how awesome I am with my many raisins, then they are fools.

Edit: I see I gave extreme examples there. I think in general respecting your opponent and resigning when you think it's appropriate will coincide. The opponent won't likely get their panties in a bunch if you resign after losing your elephant, or expect you to resign after losing a rabbit.

Often we see beginners resigning after they lose something like a dog or horse. They probably think this is a ton of material and have little hope after that, but in fact there is still enough hope that just about every single more experienced player would play on. This is an example where respecting your opponent (forget that their opponents are usually bots), and resigning when you think it's appropriate don't coincide. They just aren't experienced enough to know better. For this reason and a few others, I don't think that beginners should ever press the resign button. For more experienced players, however, they know when there is almost absolutely no hope for a win. I think it's wrong for people to play on hoping for their opponent to die on them, or something else. I don't think they're obligated to resign, but I think they should.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 24^th, 2013, 7:50am

Heh, so we pretty much agree after all. Fancy that. :)

Just to clarify my agreement with one thing you said, I definitely believe there are times when neither player would enjoy playing out a lopsided position; as you say, resigning in such a position is both respecting your opponent and doing what you feel like doing.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by chessandgo on Feb 24^th, 2013, 12:49pm

on 02/23/13 at 18:50:36, browni3141 wrote:

My point was that the pressure in a championship game is uncomparable to any other game (and that includes EEE).

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by omar on Mar 1^st, 2013, 10:57pm

A player may resign at any time to end the game. However, resigning is highly discouraged. Continuing a game to a natural finish is highly encouraged.

For the World Championship and Postal Mixer I really would like to see all the games played out to a natural finish since these are some of our best games with more viewership than a casual game.

When you play Arimaa in front of an audience, treat it like a sport. When was the last time you seen a boxer or wrestler resign. Only when they get old; not during a match :-)

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 3^rd, 2013, 8:53am

If you were chessandgo in this game, when would you resign?
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=258901

Hippo: "Looks like c&g is toast now"

Answer without looking at the game result. ;)

I have resigned too many games in my life. I have had enough of that. Not that I will blame anyone else who resigns, but I can't see a champion fight like a cornered tiger without being inspired by it.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by browni3141 on Mar 3^rd, 2013, 1:17pm

I can honestly say that I would not have resigned that game except maybe when goal was trivial at 46s-48s (which the game didn't get to, but could have)
Even though silver had a very large advantage, the win was not completely trivial.

Title: Re: When would you resign?
Post by Nombril on Mar 6^th, 2013, 2:18pm

I find it interesting that when this topic was discussed just 3 years ago when I was starting, one of the points made was that noone was expert enough about the game to be able to decide a good point to resign. Positional advantages can easily outweigh large material advantages. Unless I missed this point being made elsewhere in the thread, has our understanding of the game advanced far enough that we think the better players are now capable of deciding on where the tipping point is?

As for casual games: I do think that a player that is losing can still learn valuable ideas about last ditch delaying tactics or wild goal attacks. In a later game, you may need a move that delays goal for 2 moves, to give you time to further your own attack. And against a bot, (unless developers disagree?), there is no reason not to resign if you are not enjoying the position.

As for event games: I do think the blitz/time pressure aspect is a part of the WC and even the Postal Mixer! The mental ability to stay focused and keep composure is not less important then bursts of tactical brilliance. And I know Tuks and I took on way more postal mixer games then we could handle at once, and ended up playing moves under self imposed time pressure. (I blundered a camel in one game, Tuks blundered an Elephant, though he probably wouldn't appreciate me reminding folks about it :) )

Regarding the "worthiness" of a victory won by blunder: Often the person in the poor position is there because of a blunder due to time pressure earlier in the game. We don't discredit the winner in that case when the game proceeds to a loss for the person that makes the blunder. Why discredit the winner when it is the second person to make a mistake that leads to a reversal on the board?