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Topic: Move 12 (Read 9733 times) |
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #15 on: Aug 24th, 2007, 10:14pm » |
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on Aug 24th, 2007, 8:37pm, Fritzlein wrote:
So it seems that Gold must let us retreat our rabbit with
12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n
13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Eb4e
13b rb5w hh3n Rh2n xxxx
Where we are slightly behind in the race, but this is somewhat compensated by the awkwardness of Gold's piece placement.
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But then 14w Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e Ef4e.
Does this position favor us, too? We could move our elephant to f4, but then I think the c6 trap looks awkward; maybe it's an illusion. Or would you retreat the horse with step 4 of 13b?
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| « Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2007, 10:17pm by The_Jeh » |
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #16 on: Aug 25th, 2007, 12:14am » |
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how about 12b ed4n ed5w rb6e ha6e ?
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #17 on: Aug 25th, 2007, 5:16pm » |
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on Aug 24th, 2007, 8:37pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I do not think we should contemplate an MH attack any time in the foreseeable future. It's too slow and can't accomplish anything. An EMH attack is more within the realm of possibility, but that doesn't combine well with a rabbit pull, i.e. once we pull the h-rabbit, he may have an easier time defending against an EMH attack, so we should choose only the one that looks better (the rabbit pull IMHO). |
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Not that we have to perform the MH attack.  I think more important is we could easily perform it if the golden elephant was too busy elsewhere. If both elephants are to far to count, MH attack when the defender has a camel is as strong as EH one when the defender has an elephant. This limits possible Chessandgo's strategies.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2007, 5:17pm by UruramTururam » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #18 on: Aug 25th, 2007, 6:23pm » |
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on Aug 25th, 2007, 5:16pm, UruramTururam wrote:| If both elephants are to far to count, MH attack when the defender has a camel is as strong as EH one when the defender has an elephant. This limits possible Chessandgo's strategies. |
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I should analyze some of the lines people have proposed, but I am first drawn to respond to this comment. There are some similarities about an EH attack when an E defends and an MH attack when an M defends. For example, neither attack can hope to capture a piece in the attacked trap, because the strongest defender is the same strength as the strongest attacker. Also both attacks have a danger of the horse (the weaker attacker) being taken hostage by the strong defender.
But the differences are critical. If the EH attack gives up the horse hostage to the defending elephant, it can make the defending elephant less mobile. The reduced mobility of the defending elephant creates an increased mobility for the attacker's camel to operate elsewhere. The shape of the EH vs. Exxxx fight can make one camel stronger than the other on the rest of the board, because that camel is less in danger of an elephant switching quadrants.
In contrast, if the defending M takes the attacking H hostage in an MH attack, this has no effect whatsoever on the mobility of the two elephants. The elephants weren't afraid of the camels in the first place. What's more, a camel in the opening has no higher aspiration than holding a horse hostage, so it wouldn't want to cross sides, so it doesn't matter if it has lost mobility.
If the defending M takes the attacking H hostage, it forces the attacking M to stay exposed forward to prevent the capture of the horse. If the two elephants arrive two moves later (or whenever) the erstwhile MH attacker will have the worst of it because of the exposed M and the hostage H.
The only way an MH attack makes sense against a trap defended by M is if our elephant is going to arrive before our H gets taken hostage, i.e. only if it is really an EMH attack.
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #19 on: Aug 25th, 2007, 6:41pm » |
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on Aug 25th, 2007, 5:16pm, UruramTururam wrote:
Not that we have to perform the MH attack. I think more important is we could easily perform it if the golden elephant was too busy elsewhere. If both elephants are to far to count, MH attack when the defender has a camel is as strong as EH one when the defender has an elephant. This limits possible Chessandgo's strategies. |
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The problem with MH attacks is that they readily allow for camel hostages. if we advance our camel then chessandgo is certainly going to attempt to take it hostage and unless you have some way to tie down the gold phant or blockade it (at least partially) MH attacks simply aren't particularly viable. An EMH attack, one of chessandgo's favorite is much more viable but they are also rather commital and based on the voting of the mob up to this point i doubt such an option would be voted for.
Just an overall note to the mob, all the strategic things that have been discussed in the first 11 moves are nice but i really feel that we need to spend greater time looking at immediate tactics. I feel like the possibilty of chessandgo pulling our rabbit was basically completely ignored in our discussion for the last move. I am equally at fault with everyone else. I spent the vast majority of my forum posts arguing for my own move and only alluded to this possibility which i was concerned about rather than clearly pointing this out although. I hope we have all learned something about the importance of everyone contributing to the discussion as much as possible.
That being said I do not feel that our position is a bad one. This move was second on my ballot. I'd say we are about even or slightly behind but behind no more than the advantage i believe gold has by moving first. Perhaps further analysis by the mob will convince me that we are better off than i currently feel we are.
[edit] i guess much of what i said at the beginning was posted by fritz except more precisely while i was typing all of this up
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| « Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2007, 7:15pm by mdk » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #20 on: Aug 25th, 2007, 6:42pm » |
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In light of all this discussion, don't expect a vote Monday morning. Maybe as late as Wednesday morning.
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #21 on: Aug 25th, 2007, 8:25pm » |
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on Aug 24th, 2007, 8:37am, Fritzlein wrote:
Oops, I didn't see the drag. I was assuming he would flip. As usual the position isn't as easy as it first appears.
If we pull once and occupy c4 with our elephant, we need to be more aware of chessandgo pulling once and centralizing his elephant to go after our camel, or directly going after our camel, since we've lost a step decentralizing our elephant.
Now that our double-pull looks inferior, I will venture to guess that we are slightly losing, although we need more lines to be confident of anything in a race-like position.
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I feel like we have completely ignored the option of pulling the rabbit twice after Fritz said that he feels the double pull looks inferior. We were worried about the following line where chessandgo drags the rabbit rather than flipping it.
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n
13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s
Note however that we can continue:
13b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s !!!
Now we are threatening a second rabbit pull and chessandgo's camel has no real hope of taking a horse hostage. After this 13b I don't feel that the immediate double pull looks inferior. Instead I would say that chessandgo pulling the rabbit twice is inferior!
I don't know how other people feel but I now feel that pulling the rabbit twice is clearly best and I would be happy to vote early in order to add to our reserve.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2007, 8:36pm by mdk » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #22 on: Aug 25th, 2007, 8:44pm » |
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on Aug 25th, 2007, 6:41pm, mdk wrote:| Just an overall note to the mob, all the strategic things that have been discussed in the first 11 moves are nice but i really feel that we need to spend greater time looking at immediate tactics. |
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You are right, we tipped too much into fuzzy impressions. I plead guilty to just reacting on first impressions rather than playing out lines. We need a good mix of concrete variations as well as strategy. In fact, the tactics should be our advantage, because we will be at best equal with chessandgo on strategy, but with more eyeballs on particular lines we should be better able to avoid not only blunders but also deep tactical traps.
Fortunately there have been a lot of good concrete suggestions so far this move. I have put them all into a tree for easy review. I have added some variations and comments. Right now I think that UT's move leaves us a little behind, so I've added a slight variation for discussion: dd8s instead of md6e.
Mdk's continuation for the double-pull can get super-sharp in a way that seems to favor Gold, so I don't like it yet, but definitely we need more analysis. This is the critical line so far. I'm curious to see mdk's refutation for my continuation for Gold.
I've included all posted variations of jdb's move and others, but haven't had time to review them yet.
The analysis tree:
12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n (block Gold elephant from center)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Eb4e (keep elephant mobility)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n rb5w ha6e (protect rabbit instead f racing?)
. . . 14w Db3w Da3n Da4s ra5s (now a straight race ends tied)
. . . 14w Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e Ef4e (uh oh)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (race instead of protecting rabbit?)
. . . 14w Db3n Db4s rb5s Db3e (now Gold wins a straight race!)
. . . . 14b ha6s ha5s ha4n Da3n (complicating?)
. . . . . 15w rb4s Ec4w Da4s Hc3e (Gold is OK?)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Rh2w (safety h2-rabbit)
. . 13b hh3s hh2n Rh1n ec5s (still keep elephant from center)
. . . 14w Eb4w rb5s Ea4n Ea5e (regain mobility)
. . . . 14b hh3n Rh2n rb4w Ha6e (seems about even?)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Hc3e (safety c3-horse)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n ec5s ha6e (still keep elephant from center)
. . . 14w Eb4w rb5s Db3w rb4s (still threaten rabbit)
. . . . 14b hb6s hb5s rb3s hb4s (exploiting b3 hole)
. . . . . 15w Ea4e hb3e Eb4s De2n (wrong side frame)
. . . . . . 15b me6s me5s de3s me4s (crazy but Silver's OK)
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (simple: just race)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (blocking off c4)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s (each Silver horse pulls a rabbit)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (counter-attack)
. . . . 14b Db3s ha3e rb8s rb7s (very sharp but favors Gold?)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
. . 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (we win race unless Gold complicates)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (complicating?)
. . . . 14b ha6e me6e Rh5w hh6n (he's in more trouble than us)
12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e
. 13w Eb5n Eb6n Eb7s rb8s
. . 13b ec4e Hc3n Hc4n ed4w
. 13w Eb5e Ec5w rc6s Hc3e
. . 13b hh4w Rh3n Rh4n hg4e
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s Ed5e
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5w hg5n
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s ra2e
. . 13b ha6s ec4w eb4e Db3n
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n De2
12b ed4n ed5w rb6e ha6e
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n (occupy c4, safety horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
12b dd8s ed4w ec4n Hc3n (block Gold elephant from center)
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| « Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2007, 12:01am by Fritzlein » |
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99of9
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #23 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 2:47am » |
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The tree is great - thanks Fritz. If anyone is keen, they could put it on the wiki, so we can all shoulder the responsibility of keeping it up to date.
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #24 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 8:03am » |
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on Aug 25th, 2007, 6:23pm, Fritzlein wrote:| The only way an MH attack makes sense against a trap defended by M is if our elephant is going to arrive before our H gets taken hostage, i.e. only if it is really an EMH attack. |
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Yes. Thus it's better to keep our elephant in the center while trying to keep C&G's one out of it. As for now the situation looks OK. Trying to keep golden elephant right-wing-sealed leaves us much freedom on the left (including EMH if necessary).
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jdb
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #25 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 8:52am » |
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Nice tree fritz. Anything I added is in bold
The analysis tree:
12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n (block Gold elephant from center)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Eb4e (keep elephant mobility)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n rb5w ha6e (protect rabbit instead f racing?)
. . . 14w Db3w Da3n Da4s ra5s (now a straight race ends tied)
. . . 14w Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e Ef4e (uh oh)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (race instead of protecting rabbit?)
. . . 14w Db3n Db4s rb5s Db3e (now Gold wins a straight race!)
. . . . 14b ha6s ha5s ha4n Da3n (complicating?)
. . . . . 15w rb4s Ec4w Da4s Hc3e (Gold is OK?)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Rh2w (safety h2-rabbit)
. . 13b hh3s hh2n Rh1n ec5s (still keep elephant from center)
. . . 14w Eb4w rb5s Ea4n Ea5e (regain mobility)
. . . . 14b hh3n Rh2n rb4w Ha6e (seems about even?)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Hc3e (safety c3-horse)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n ec5s ha6e (still keep elephant from center)
. . . 14w Eb4w Ea5n rb5s Ea6e
. . . 14w Eb4w rb5s Db3w rb4s (still threaten rabbit)
. . . . 14b hb6s hb5s rb3s hb4s (exploiting b3 hole)
. . . . . 15w Ea4e hb3e Eb4s De2n (wrong side frame)
. . . . . . 15b me6s me5s de3s me4s (crazy but Silver's OK)
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (simple: just race)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (blocking off c4)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s (each Silver horse pulls a rabbit)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (counter-attack)
. . . . 14b Db3s ha3e rb8s rb7s (very sharp but favors Gold?)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
. . 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (we win race unless Gold complicates)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (complicating?)
. . . . 14b ha6e me6e Rh5w hh6n (he's in more trouble than us)
12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e
. 13w Eb5n Eb6n Eb7s rb8s
. . 13b ec4e Hc3n Hc4n ed4w
. 13w Eb5e Ec5w rc6s Hc3e
. . 13b hh4w Rh3n Rh4n hg4e
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s Ed5e
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5w hg5n
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s ra2e
. . 13b ha6s ec4w eb4e Db3n
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n De2
12b ed4n ed5w rb6e ha6e
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n (occupy c4, safety horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
12b dd8s ed4w ec4n Hc3n (block Gold elephant from center)
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #26 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 3:14pm » |
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12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (simple: just race)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (blocking off c4)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s (each Silver horse pulls a rabbit)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (counter-attack)
I was thinking 14b cc7w cb7s md6e dd8s which leaves the position extremely sharp.
However another possibility is 13b ha6s ha5s md6w ed4s.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #27 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 4:14pm » |
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99of9, it would be great to have a communally edited analysis tree on the Wiki. For now, though, we can cut and paste all or part of it in different posts as needed.
I have updated the tree with possible replies to mdk's and jdb's suggestions. Whenever the tree branches, I have put the better move first, according to my guess as to which move is better. My current assessment is that UT's move leaves us about even, while both the double pull and jdb's move leave us slightly behind with best play. That leaves the bottom four moves which have gotten little attention so far. One of them (or something new!) may be better than the three heavily-analyzed moves. I will analyze more as I have time.
The analysis tree:
12b md6e ed4w ec4n Hc3n (block Gold elephant from center)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Eb4e (keep elephant mobility)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n rb5w ha6e (protect rabbit instead of racing?)
. . . 14w Db3w Da3n Da4s ra5s (straight race ends tied)
. . . . 14b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n (rabbit trade =)
. . . 14w Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e Ef4e (freeze horse)
. . . . 14b ec5s ec4w hc3n hb6s (race better than defense)
. . . . . 15w Eg4w hh4w Ef4n hg4w (horse trade =)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (race instead of protecting rabbit?)
. . . 14w Db3n Db4s rb5s Db3e (now Gold wins a straight race!)
. . . . 14b ha6s ha5s ha4n Da3n (complicating?)
. . . . . 15w rb4s Ec4w Da4s Hc3e (Gold is OK?)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Rh2w (safety h2-rabbit)
. . 13b hh3s hh2n Rh1n ec5s (still keep elephant from center)
. . . 14w Eb4w rb5s Ea4n Ea5e (regain mobility)
. . . . 14b hh3n Rh2n rb4w Ha6e (seems about even?)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Hc3e (safety c3-horse)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n ec5s ha6e (still keep elephant from center)
. . . 14w Eb4w Ea4n rb5s Ea5e (regain mobility)
. . . . 14b rb4w hh4n Rh3n dd8s (Silver slightly ahead?)
. . . 14w Eb4w rb5s Db3w rb4s (still threaten rabbit)
. . . . 14b hb6s hb5s rb3s hb4s (exploiting b3 hole)
. . . . . 15w Ea4e hb3e Eb4s De2n (wrong side frame)
. . . . . . 15b me6s me5s de3s me4s (crazy but Silver's OK)
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (simple: just race)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (blocking off c4)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s md6w ed4s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Hb3w rb4s (Gold slightly ahead in race)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s (each Silver horse pulls a rabbit)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (counter-attack)
. . . . 14b cc7w cb7s md6e dd8s
. . . . . 15w Hc3n Hc4n Cc2w Md2w (Gold's attack is better)
. . . . 14b Db3s ha3e rb8s rb7s (very sharp but favors Gold?)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
. . 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (we win race unless Gold complicates)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (complicating?)
. . . . 14b ha6e me6e Rh5w hh6n (he's in more trouble than us)
12b hh3n Rh2n ed4w rb6e (rabbit into trap)
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s ra2e (pull rabbit + tuck rabbit)
. . 13b ha6s ec4w eb4e Db3n (pull dog)
. . . 14w Ed5e md6s md5s Ee5w (flip camel)
. . . . 14b md4e me4e mf4n mf5n (run away)
. . . . . 15w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5e mf6s
. . . . . . 15b ce7s ce6s mf5n ce5n
. . . . . . . 16w Eg5s Eg4n hh4w Hf3w (Gold +=)
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n (pull rabbit)
. . . 14w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n De2n (attack f6, Gold initiative)
. 13w Eb5e Ec5w rc6s Hc3e (pull rabbit + safety horse)
. . 13b hh4w Rh3n Rh4n hg4e (flip rabbit)
. . . 14w Ed5e md6s md5s Ee5w (flip camel)
. . . . 14b md4e me4e mf4n mf5n (run away)
. . . . . 15w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5e mf6s (Gold has initiative)
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e rc6s Ed5e (pull rabbit + threaten f6)
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5w hg5n (pull rabbit and block horse)
. 13w Eb5n Eb6n Eb7s rb8s (pull second rabbit)
. . 13b ec4e Hc3n Hc4n ed4w (horse flip, Silver winning)
12b ed4n ed5w rb6e ha6e
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n (occupy c4, safety horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
12b dd8s ed4w ec4n Hc3n (block Gold elephant from center)
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| « Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2007, 4:18pm by Fritzlein » |
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jdb
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #28 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 6:02pm » |
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. 13w Eb5s rb6s Hc4s Hc3e (safety c3-horse)
. . 13b hh3n Rh2n ec5s ha6e (still keep elephant from center)
. . . 14w Eb4w Ea4n rb5s Ea5e (regain mobility)
. . . . 14b rb4w hh4n Rh3n dd8s (Silver slightly ahead?)
15w Hd3w Db3s Hc3w Eb5e
Looks about equal. Gold's horses are back on the proper squares and the rabbit dragging is close too. If anything silver's camel is a bit of a target, but nothing serious.
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #29 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 6:02pm » |
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on Aug 26th, 2007, 4:14pm, Fritzlein wrote:99of9,
[font=courier]The analysis tree:
[edit]
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (simple: just race)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (blocking off c4)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s md6w ed4s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Hb3w rb4s (Gold slightly ahead in race)
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14b hh5n Rh4n hh6w Rh5n
in this case arent we the ones to capture first? the phant cant save the rabbit because then we can capture at the c3 trap.
so
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (simple: just race)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (blocking off c4)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s md6w ed4s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Hb3w rb4s (Gold NOT slightly ahead in race)
. . . . 14b hh5n Rh4n hh6w Rh5n
. . . . . 15w Ec4n Ec5e Ed5e Ee5n (Ee5e)
. . . . . . 15b mc6w ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x (clearly bad for gold)
. . . . . 15w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w xxxx
. . . . . . 15b mc6e md6e me6s rg7e (we are clearly better)
. . . . . 15w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5e Rh6n
. . . . . . 15b hg6e hh6w Rh7s rg7e (and we will again capture the rabbit first)
i hope this bit of analysis changes your evaluation of the position fritz. or is there some other response you were thinking of for 15w? if any of you guys have responses i didnt mention that you want me to respond to i would be happy to do so.
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