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   Author  Topic: Move 23  (Read 5143 times)
Janzert
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #15 on: Feb 11th, 2008, 12:34pm »
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Just for fun, after 23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s OpFor likes at a depth of 11 steps
 
pv Dc4e Ec5s Mf5w df6s b ed3e mc3e Cc2n hb4n w Rb2e Ce2s rb3s Cc3w
 
then switches to
 
pv Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n b Dc4e mc3n Dd4e mc4e w Ec5w Mf5w df6s Rf1n
 
during the 12 step search, but I didn't let it finish 12 steps deep.
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #16 on: Feb 11th, 2008, 11:46pm »
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Well, I returned from vacation to find the pressure was on at work (poor Omar) and therefore decided to turn in early and get a good night's sleep to better survive the week.  As I was drifting off, however, I thought of the insanely sharp move 23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e, and all hope of sleep vanished.  That move would give us a direct threat to capture chessandgo's camel in f3, a threat to frame his horse in f6, and strategic threats such as occupying b3 with our horse or swinging our camel through f3 up to g5.  Of course any line as wild as this hinges on tactics rather than strategy, but I couldn't find a refutation in my head in bed, so here I am analyzing with the game client.
 

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n rb3e Ha3e
.    .    24b Ce3s md3e rc3x me3e mf3e
.    .    .    25w Ce2n Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
.    .    .    .    25b mg3n mg4n Hg6e mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Mf5w ef4n dd7s rb8s =+
.    .    24b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5n he6s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    25b ha5s ha4e Dc4n hb4e
.    .    .    .    .    26w he5s Mf5w Me5w Dc5w (?)
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5s Ed4n md3n rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x dd7s -/+
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e rb3e hb4s =+
.    24w Dc4w Rf1n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5e hb5e hc5s dd7s
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s Ha3n rb3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3n me3w Hg6s Mf5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4n hc5w hb5w Db4n -+
.    .    .    25w Ed4e Ee4n he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b md3e me3e mf3w Rf2n Rf3x -+
.    24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w md3e Ed4s
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ec4e hc5s hc4s hc3x Ed4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef4n ef5n ef6s Hg6w Hf6x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x =+

 
At the moment we have an extra rabbit, but chessandgo has counterplay.  These lines seems to end with us having an extra rabbit for no counterplay, or some other solid positional advantage that isn't compensated.  In other words it seems to improve our position.
 
Given the super-sharp tactics, I once again consulted Bomb, and once again got garbage suggestions.  It is becoming amply clear that Bomb sucks at tactics at postal speeds.  (If Bomb can't help in a position like this, when will it be able to help?)  We need some human eyes to look over these lines.  At the moment this is my new favorite move, but one oversight in my analysis could totally wreck it.
 
Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but given that I have seen it, I think we need to delay the vote and dip into reserve a bit to verify it.  If this move works, it should be well worth spending a few days of reserve.
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99of9
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #17 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 5:21am »
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I agree with the delay.  I haven't found a clear refutation so far.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #18 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 7:12am »
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The best reply I could find was the last one on the tree.  That line looks rather forced.  I don't see much opportunity for counterplay and it ends with silver to move with gold weak on the west side.  We would be looking for an e-d attack.
 
So I like this new move.
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Soter
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #19 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 9:31am »
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Hey to all! I'm glad that my proposal met with approval  Smiley.
 
( EDIT:Whoops!  Shocked I was mistaken - Fritz, you beat me to it; you mentioned this move in "move 22 thread" ).
 
It looks like i'm going to have a decent amount of free time till end of February - so two more eyes to scan the board. Now I'll try to check some lines, especially from Karl's tree and post something later.
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jdb
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #20 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 10:16am »
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on Feb 11th, 2008, 11:46pm, Fritzlein wrote:

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n rb3e Ha3e
.    .    24b Ce3s md3e rc3x me3e mf3e
.    .    .    25w Ce2n Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
.    .    .    .    25b mg3n mg4n Hg6e mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Mf5w ef4n dd7s rb8s =+
.    .    24b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5n he6s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    25b ha5s ha4e Dc4n hb4e
.    .    .    .    .    26w he5s Mf5w Me5w Dc5w (?)
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5s Ed4n md3n rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x dd7s -/+
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e rb3e hb4s =+
.    24w Dc4w Rf1n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5e hb5e hc5s dd7s
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s Ha3n rb3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3n me3w Hg6s Mf5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4n hc5w hb5w Db4n -+
.    .    .    25w Ed4e Ee4n he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b md3e me3e mf3w Rf2n Rf3x -+
.    24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w md3e Ed4s
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ec4e hc5s hc4s hc3x Ed4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef4n ef5n ef6s Hg6w Hf6x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x =+

 

 
In the final line:
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w
 
Framing the horse. If silver also frames a horse, gold retreats the camel, likely ending up with a camel hostage after the horse exchange.
 
So lets say silver tries to get the camel out of danger,
 
25b md3e hc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x
 
For this to turn out reasonable, silver needs to at least capture the horse. Can silver force a horse capture or not?
 
 
« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2008, 10:25am by jdb » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #21 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 10:23am »
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on Feb 7th, 2008, 9:44am, Soter wrote:
4. My proposals ( not examined very deeply yet, but maybe we can grow sth out of it )
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e

Sorry, Soter, I didn't read your post carefully enough.  I thought you were giving moves in a deeper line, not in the present position.  And I can't claim to have thought of the move first in the move 22 thread, because that was a very different position.  In future I will try not to ignore any of your proposals, especially when your suggestions are better than mine!  Roll Eyes
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #22 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 10:28am »
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on Feb 12th, 2008, 10:16am, jdb wrote:
In the final line:
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w

Nice find.  What if we move our dog to c4 on 24b instead?  Does that limit our losses enough?  Does it open a new possibility for him?
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #23 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 12:19pm »
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The analysis by Fritzlein looks promising.  
I think we can give it a chance...  Wink
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #24 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 12:28pm »
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Continuation of jdb's line:
 
 
25b ef4e eg4n hg6w eg5n      ( gold H framed )
26w Ec4e Ed4w md3n hc3x     ( silver H dead )
26b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x        ( gold H dead )
27w Ec4n md4w mc4s mc3x Ec5s      ( silver M dead )
27b Mg5w eg4n Mf5n  Mf6x eg5w     ( gold M dead )
 
 
...and 28w sees silver rabbit dead as well, nullifying our so hard-won material advantage. Fritz's "send dog to c4" idea ( you mean 24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s, right? )holds water IMO. The number of possible deviations, however, makes my head spin. Most importantly, is it possible that Gold may withdraw his M, sacrificing his H and still find some way to finish off our pieces near c3 (?!) Maybe I am overreacting, but we all know Jean's ingenuity.
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #25 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 1:01pm »
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on Feb 12th, 2008, 12:28pm, Soter wrote:
 Most importantly, is it possible that Gold may withdraw his M, sacrificing his H and still find some way to finish off our pieces near c3 (?!) Maybe I am overreacting, but we all know Jean's ingenuity.

 
What follows, for example, after  
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s
 
This puts the pressure on c3, as it makes it more difficult for our ha5 to come to the rescue of our camel. It also looks like we cannot go after the lone horse on g5 without losing our camel via 25w Dc4w Md4w Ec5e Ed5s or 25w Ec5e Dc4n Md4w Ed5s, but I'm probably missing something.
« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2008, 2:29pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #26 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 2:20pm »
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Quote:
What follows, for example, after  
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e  
24b Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s  
 
This puts the pressure on c3, as it makes it more difficult for our ha5 to come to the rescue of our camel. It also looks like we cannot go after the lone horse on g5 without losing our camel via 25w Dc4w Md4w Ec5e Ed5s or 25w Ec5e Dc4n Md4w Ed5s, but I'm probably missing something.

 
John,
Some responses to your 24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s came to my mind ( not that they satisfy me  Undecided ):
 
1. 24b ef4n ef5s Hg5w xxxx
 
2. 24b ef4n ef5w Hg5w xxxx ( step #4 : dd7s/ha5s/something else? )
 
3. 24b he6e hf6e ef4w xxxx ( Gold H won't mess up with our rabbits that way )
 
All of them do not provide sufficient protection for our M though. If you aren't missing anything then my proposed move 23 is probably a dud. I'm going to have a second look tomorrow as I'm a bit sleepy now.
 
P.S. What if your 24w features gold M going north instead of south (Md5n)?
 
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #27 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 3:52pm »
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on Feb 12th, 2008, 1:01pm, The_Jeh wrote:

 
What follows, for example, after  
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s

What about moving our camel to threaten his horse?
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #28 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 4:22pm »
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I think he will probably then push our camel onto f6, creating a strong threat against our b3 rabbit.  
 
On the other hand, a good reply for us might be 25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s, so maybe this move is all right.  But 26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n re-complicates things a bit, as does 26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n so I would like to know your opinions on continuation from here, or whether another 25w, 25b, or 26w is better. When I go forward in time, everything seems to turn out good for us. I have not examined variations like 25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e/he6w Ee5n, which could be viable.
 
Soter, I had considered your Md5n variation of 24w in the past, but stopped looking at it for some reason I have forgotten. I'll have to look at it again. I think it was that it results in gold losing control of his camel for inadequate compensation.
« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2008, 5:29pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #29 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 6:34pm »
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on Feb 12th, 2008, 1:01pm, The_Jeh wrote:

What follows, for example, after  
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s

 
24b md3e me3e mf3e mg3n
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