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   Author  Topic: Move 24  (Read 4024 times)
mdk
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Move 24
« on: Feb 17th, 2008, 1:05pm »
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Chessandgo plays 24w Ec5e Ed5s Hg6s Mf5w
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #1 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 1:42pm »
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It's a non-tree move, and a brilliant one at that. This is getting a bit frustrating.
 
The best I can do at the moment is 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w, or maybe 24b he6e hf6e ef4n xxxx. The latter probably has more potential. Any other ideas?
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2008, 1:49pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
mdk
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #2 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 1:50pm »
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on Feb 17th, 2008, 1:42pm, The_Jeh wrote:
It's a non-tree move, and a brilliant one at that. This is getting a bit frustrating.
 
The best I can do at the moment is 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w, which is equality at best. Any other ideas?

 
Well another possibility is 24b ef4n he6e hf6e xxxx (moving the horse on a5 perhaps).  24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w looks simpler at the moment and I think if we get a simple trade of pieces we may end up slightly positionally ahead because of the extra time it will take gold to capture the rabbit. I guess we need to look at some lines.
 
[edit] looks like The Jeh just beet me to suggesting 24b ef4n he6e hf6e xxxx
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2008, 1:51pm by mdk » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #3 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 2:58pm »
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Mdk and I have made a small tree for the 24b ef4n he6e hf6e xxxx move. We've modified it to include the fourth step of ha5e. Please try to point out deviations that profit gold.
 

 
24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e
.    25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Ce2e(or Rf1n)
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n
.    .    .    .    .    27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+
 
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2008, 7:59pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #4 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 3:45pm »
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Aaargh, how come I missed this one!  Angry Now it looks so obvious!
 
I'm gonna make a deeper  analysis tomorrow - now I think the perfect response should accomplish ( or at least try to accomplish ) three objectives:
 
1. Threatening to capture Gold M and H at the same time  
- so Silver E -> f5 ,
 
2. Closing escape routes for Gold M ( slightly harder...),
 
3. Threatening Gold D ( c4 ).
 
Maybe something like ef4n ha5e hb5e xxxx Huh
 
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2008, 3:47pm by Soter » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #5 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 7:56pm »
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With this more realistic tree, I'm beginning to favor the other move, 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w, more.

24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e  
.    25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Ce2e(or Rf1n)  
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w +=
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5s
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Md5w Mc5w +=
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5n
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n hf5n ee5e =+
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w
.    .    .    .    .    27w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e +=
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2008, 8:15pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #6 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 8:33pm »
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Here's a proto-tree of the 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w idea.
 

24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w
.    25w Hg5n Dc4n Rf1n xxxx
.    .    25b Ha5e Dc5n Dc6x hb5e hc5w
.    .    .    26w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4n
.    .    .    .    26b ee5w Hc5n Hc6x ed5w hb5n
.    .    .    .    .    27w ce7n Me6n Me7s df7w hf6x
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+
.    .    .    .    .    27w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+
.    .    .    .    .    27w Me6s Me5e Mf5s hf6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e ff5e ee5e =+
.    .    .    .    .    27w Me6s Me5e Mf5e Hg6e
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e ee5e hf6e -+
.    25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e
.    .    25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6s -+

 
The evaluation of that last line depends on whether you think HD is better than M. I assumed it was. I promise there are hundreds of gold-favoring lines I'm missing.
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2008, 9:26pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
mistre
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #7 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 9:26pm »
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I like Soter's move to threaten the dog.  Otherwise we might end up losing our M and R for only a H.
 
A possible sequence:
 
24b  ef4n ha5e hb5e xxxx
   25w  Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s (C&G saves his C and threatens our C)
       25b  ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e  (We take his H)
     26w  Ee3n md3e me3e mf3x Ee4s (C&G takes our C)
        26b  hc5n Dc4n hc6w Dc5n Dc6x  (We take his D)
          27w rb3e rc3x Ha3e Ce2e md4s (C&G takes our R and regroups)
 
So we could trade M-R for H-D.  Overall, we would be up H-D to his M.  Does anyone see another scenario in which we can do better than this trade?
 
The other options seem to lead to a straight Camel Trade and the loss of our advanced rabbit as well or other complicating positions.  
 
 
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #8 on: Feb 17th, 2008, 9:34pm »
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on Feb 17th, 2008, 9:26pm, mistre wrote:
I like Soter's move to threaten the dog.  Otherwise we might end up losing our M and R for only a H.
 
A possible sequence:
 
24b  ef4n ha5e hb5e xxxx
        25w  Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s (C&G saves his C and threatens our C)
                 25b  ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e  (We take his H)
                         26w  Ee3n md3e me3e mf3x Ee4s (C&G takes our C)
                                 26b  hc5n Dc4n hc6w Dc5n Dc6x  (We take his D)
                                        27w rb3e rc3x Ha3e Ce2e md4s (C&G takes our R and regroups)
 
So we could trade M-R for H-D.  Overall, we would be up H-D to his M.  Does anyone see another scenario in which we can do better than this trade?
 
The other options seem to lead to a straight Camel Trade and the loss of our advanced rabbit as well or other complicating positions.  
 
 

 
Upon analysis, Soter's move looks like it could be good. What about 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s? It looks like gold could equalize.
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2008, 9:43pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
UruramTururam
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #9 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 4:30am »
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Hmm, the situation looks interesting. C&G needs full 4 moves to trap anything...
 
I'd consider:
24b ef4n dd7s xxx xxx
 
Where xxx is moving the horse.  
 
So either
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s
or
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e <- but this one seems weaker to me
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #10 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 9:02am »
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on Feb 17th, 2008, 9:34pm, The_Jeh wrote:

 
Upon analysis, Soter's move looks like it could be good. What about 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s? It looks like gold could equalize.

 
If C&G selects that 25w, things look at lot less certain.  We could take his H, and then he takes our M, but then we can immediately threaten his M.  From there it looks unclear whether or not we can take his M without losing any further material.
 
Or we reply with something like 25b ef5s Hg5w he6s hc5s, whereby we threaten the horse, save our camel, and bolster our trap defense on c3 with our horse.  After that, I have no idea how it would play out!
 
I still like Soter's move because it causes C&G to take an extra step to save the dog which he could have applied to better use somewhere else.
 
I still don't know what our 4th step would be for 24b would be - nothing seems apparent.
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2008, 9:05am by mistre » IP Logged

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Re: Move 24
« Reply #11 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 9:05am »
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on Feb 18th, 2008, 4:30am, UruramTururam wrote:
Hmm, the situation looks interesting. C&G needs full 4 moves to trap anything...
 
I'd consider:
24b ef4n dd7s xxx xxx
 
Where xxx is moving the horse.  
 
So either
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s
or
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e <- but this one seems weaker to me

 
UruramTururam,
 
What is the purpose of dd7s?  I don't see any benefit to this move, but maybe I am missing somethingHuh?
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #12 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 9:19am »
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Hello to mobsters and lurkers alike,
 
Got a bunch of ideas -  feel free to comment, correct and take inspiration. Sorry if this is a bit messy.  
 
 
The Jeh,
 
24b ef4n he6e hf6e ha5e
25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
 
What's the best course of action?
 
or
 
24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w
25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n  
 
How should we react to a double-trap attack?  
25b ee5e Me6s ha5e hb5e ?
 
Another one:
 
24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w
25w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n - very freakish, but maybe Gold may hope for something?
 
 
Quote:
Upon analysis, Soter's move looks like it could be good. What about  
 
25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s? It looks like gold could equalize.

 
Maybe answer with 25b ef5w ee5e Me4n xxxx ( xxxx = hc5s, for instance, but not sure ). But Jean may counter that with 26w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s  or 26w  Ce2n Dd2e Ce3n Me5w. The former is more dangerous then the latter IMO, but  camel trade stays within reach.  
 
I had another 25b ( after your proposed 25w ):  
25b ef5s Hg5w ce7s ce6s
in my mind for a while but this is crap.
 
 
Mistre ( you've joined? great!  Smiley)
 
 
Alternative 26w md3w Ee3w Dc4w Md4w frames our camel and puts our rabbit on "pinning duty". If we continue with 26b ef5w ee5w hd5e xxxx (ed5w/ed5s),
Jean will trap our camel by pulling the rabbit and withdraw his camel and dog.
Materially we are HR for M - slightly behind at worst, equal at best.
 
Alternative 26b ( after he kills our camel on 26w ): what if we push Jean's dog with our horse ( 2 steps ) and then attack Gold camel with phant
( another 2 steps )? Something like 26b xxxx (Dc4s/Dc4w) hc5s ef5s ef4w ?
 
 
Quote:
I'd consider:  
24b ef4n dd7s xxx xxx  
 
Where xxx is moving the horse.  
 
So either  
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s  
or  
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e <- but this one seems weaker to me

 
UruramTururam,
 
I too thought about something similar and I agree with your evaluation of hb5e variant ( Gold M and Silver H may get too close ). The problem is, we must check whether The_Jeh's  refutation of my move does invalidate your proposals as well - I  hope it doesn't but tricky lines are rife and I haven' examined much yet.
 
I also "discovered" 24b ef4n dd7s dd6s ha5e, but the idea of clogging the centre to gain the upper hand seems dubious. Looks like my knowledge of what doesn't work is slowly growing :/.
 
 
I also briefly examined 24b ef4n he6e hf6e ha5s but this is rather flawed: Gold camel may escape when c4 dog invades the centre - 25w Dc4n Dc5e Me5s Ce2e. Dog is awkwardly positioned after this move though, but OTOH Jean may come up with a better answer, so I don't really know...
 
then
 
A. 25b ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e ( Gold H dead, phant returns to f5 )
B. 25b ef5n Hg5w ef6w Hf5n hf6x ( Gold H dead, phant goes to e6 )
 
don't know which of them is better. Maybe both are equally bad - they permit:
 
26w md3w Ed4s rb3n mc3x Ha3e
26b ee6w ed6w ec6s ec5s ( our R  framed and our E pinned on the next move. Not great. )
 
however
 
26b ee6w ed6w ec6s ha4s makes framing imposible and leaves Silver with some chances to win material in future.
 
 
Bottom line: I'm gonna examine The_Jeh's refutation  further as I am still very skeptical about my proposed move. The position is much more complex than I thought.
 
 
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2008, 9:21am by Soter » IP Logged
jdb
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #13 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 9:39am »
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Quote:
Upon analysis, Soter's move looks like it could be good. What about 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s? It looks like gold could equalize

 
24b ha5e hb5e ef4n ce7n
24w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
25b ef5s Hg6w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
26w rb3n Dc3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
26b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5w
27w Ed3n Ed4n Me5e Mf5e
27b ee4e ef4n hb5n he6s
 
 
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #14 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 9:58am »
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Quote:
24b ha5e hb5e ef4n ce7n  
24w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s  
25b ef5s Hg6w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n  
26w rb3n Dc3w md3w mc3x Ed4s  
26b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5w  
27w Ed3n Ed4n Me5e Mf5e  
27b ee4e ef4n hb5n he6s

 
Interesting line, JDB. What do you think of another possible 27b ee4e ef4n rb4w hb5n?
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