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   Author  Topic: Move 24  (Read 4018 times)
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #15 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 10:00am »
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on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:19am, Soter wrote:

 
The Jeh,
 
24b ef4n he6e hf6e ha5e
25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
 
What's the best course of action?
 

25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w
 
Yes, he can defend by putting a horse beside the trap, but it would allow our camel to escape.
 
 
on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:19am, Soter wrote:

24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w
25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n  
 
How should we react to a double-trap attack?  
25b ee5e Me6s ha5e hb5e ?

 
It works for me. I think it might be equality.
 
 
on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:19am, Soter wrote:

Another one:
 
24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w
25w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n - very freakish, but maybe Gold may hope for something?

 
No.  25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6w =+
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2008, 10:14am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #16 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 11:34am »
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Thanks for insight, The_Jeh. I add yet another line:
 
24b ef4n he6e Me5n ef5w
25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n
25b ha5n ha6e ee5e Me6s
26w Ed6s Me5s Me4s Ed5s
26b hb6s hb5s Dc4n hb4e
 
Not sure about further progress  if Jean's advanced H escapes ( I'll have a look tomorrow ). I still find your move very interesing though.
 
Quote:
25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w

 
Good point. I've  found 26w Ee3n Ee4n Md5n Ee5w
( though I think it only delays the inevitable ) and a very irritating 26w Hg5w Hf5w Md5s He5s ( this one is tougher but probably refutable. At least I hope so as DR for M is not the best deal ).
 
 
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2008, 1:29pm by Soter » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #17 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 12:11pm »
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Soter, your very last 26w is illegal.
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #18 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 1:15pm »
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on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:05am, mistre wrote:

What is the purpose of dd7s?  

 
General support. Secures the right trap and moves another silver piece closer to the action.
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #19 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 2:02pm »
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Quote:
Soter, your very last 26w is illegal.

 
 Shocked Oops, sorry The_Jeh! I didn't mean to confuse you.My mind played a trick on me and turned your ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w into ef5w ee5w Md4n ee4w. My concentration  level is poor today.  
 
As I told you in my previous post I like your proposal. I failed to find a decisive refutation; there may be something I miss of course, but IMO your move is of good quality. Tomorrow I'm gonna torture my ef4n ha5e hb5e xxxx and check whether it sinks or swims.
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #20 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 3:31pm »
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on Feb 18th, 2008, 4:30am, UruramTururam wrote:

24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s

This move has potential because our western horse is threatening to occupy b3 as well as threatening to capture the c4 dog.  For example
 
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s
25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w
 
However, we must be prepared for chessandgo to drop his dog into c3, blocking both of our threats.  In that case our dog on d6 might end up being a tactical liability, e.g.
 
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s
25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s
26w he5w Me4n Me5n Rf1n
 
and then we can't push his camel to d6 because our dog is in the way.  So maybe an alternative would be 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s with the fourth step of ra8s or rg7s.
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s
25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s
 
and now I am not sure how to continue for Gold.
 
 
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #21 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 3:47pm »
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I'm well aware of how confusing it can be to sort out the analysis of previous posts if you are just entering the discussion, so here is the tree of all analysis up to this point. The node evaluations are my own, so if you think I am misrepresenting a certain line, please say so immediately.
 

 
24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e  
.    25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Rf1n
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+    
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w +=  
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5s  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Md5w Mc5w +=  
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5n  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n hf5n ee5e =+  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e +=
.    25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
.    .    25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w
.    .    .    26w Ee3n Ee4n Md5n Ee5w
.    .    .    .    26b hb5n md3w Dc4w mc3n -+
 
 
24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w  
.    25w Hg5n Dc4n Rf1n xxxx  
.    .    25b Ha5e Dc5n Dc6x hb5e hc5w  
.    .    .    26w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4n  
.    .    .    .    26b ee5w Hc5n Hc6x ed5w hb5n  
.    .    .    .    .    27w ce7n Me6n Me7s df7w hf6x  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+  
.    .    .    .    .    27w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Me6s Me5e Mf5s hf6s  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e ff5e ee5e =+  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Me6s Me5e Mf5e Hg6e  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e ee5e hf6e -+  
.    25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e  
.    .    25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6s -+  
.    25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n
.    .    25b ee5e Me6s ha5e hb5e =(?)
.    .    25b ha5n ha6e ee5e Me6s
.    .    .    26w Ed6s Me5s Me4s Ed5s
.    .    .    .    26b hb6s hb5s Dc4n hb4e (?)
.    25w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n  
.    .    25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6w =+
 
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5e ce7n  
.    25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
.    .    25b ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e
.    .    .    26w Ee3n md3e me3e mf3x Ee4s
.    .    .    .    26b hc5n Dc4n hc6w Dc5n Dc6x
.    .    .    .    .    27w rb3e rc3x Ha3e Ce2e md4s -+
.    25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
.    .    25b ef5s Hg6w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
.    .    .    26w rb3n Dc3w md2w mc3x Ed4s
.    .    .    .    26b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5w
.    .    .    .    .    27w Edwn Ed4n Me5e Mf5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ee4e ef4n hb5n he6s +-
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ee4e ef4n rb4w hb5n +-
 
 
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s
.    25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
.    .    25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w =
.    25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
.    .    25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s
.    .    .    26w he5w Me4n Me5n Rf1n +-
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s (/ra8s)
.    25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
.    .    25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s -+
 
 
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e
 
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2008, 3:57pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #22 on: Feb 18th, 2008, 6:06pm »
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Thanks for compiling that tree, The_Jeh.  I am reposting it with a mini-max sort, i.e. percolating your leaf evaluations up to the top, and listing the branches first that the player would actually prefer.  That way, for people analyzing, the critical lines to play out are always on top.  If you can refute a critical line, it can change our entire assessment of the position, demote some move, and create a new critical line.
 
The only leaf evaluation I changed was to mark the leaf you didn't label as unclear.  According to the listed options and your leaf evaluations, we have one choice that favors us, two that are unclear or equal, and three that favor chessandgo.
 

24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s
.    25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
.    .    25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s -+
 
24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w  
.    25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n
.    .    25b ee5e Me6s ha5e hb5e =(?)
.    .    25b ha5n ha6e ee5e Me6s
.    .    .    26w Ed6s Me5s Me4s Ed5s
.    .    .    .    26b hb6s hb5s Dc4n hb4e (?)
.    25w Hg5n Dc4n Rf1n xxxx  
.    .    25b Ha5e Dc5n Dc6x hb5e hc5w  
.    .    .    26w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4n  
.    .    .    .    26b ee5w Hc5n Hc6x ed5w hb5n  
.    .    .    .    .    27w ce7n Me6n Me7s df7w hf6x  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+  
.    .    .    .    .    27w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Me6s Me5e Mf5s hf6s  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e ff5e ee5e =+  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Me6s Me5e Mf5e Hg6e  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ec5e ed5e ee5e hf6e -+  
.    25w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n  
.    .    25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6w =+
.    25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e  
.    .    25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6s -+  
 
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e (?)
 
24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e  
.    25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Rf1n
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w +=  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+    
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w  
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+  
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5s  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w Md5w Mc5w +=  
.    .    25b ef5s Me4n ef4w  
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5w  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n Md5n ee5w  
.    .    .    .    .    27w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e +=
.    .    .    26w Hg5w Me5n  
.    .    .    .    26b ee4n hf5n ee5e =+  
.    25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
.    .    25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w
.    .    .    26w Ee3n Ee4n Md5n Ee5w
.    .    .    .    26b hb5n md3w Dc4w mc3n -+
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5e ce7n  
.    25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
.    .    25b ef5s Hg6w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
.    .    .    26w rb3n Dc3w md2w mc3x Ed4s
.    .    .    .    26b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5w
.    .    .    .    .    27w Edwn Ed4n Me5e Mf5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ee4e ef4n hb5n he6s +-
.    .    .    .    .    .    27b ee4e ef4n rb4w hb5n +-
.    25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
.    .    25b ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e
.    .    .    26w Ee3n md3e me3e mf3x Ee4s
.    .    .    .    26b hc5n Dc4n hc6w Dc5n Dc6x
.    .    .    .    .    27w rb3e rc3x Ha3e Ce2e md4s -+
 
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s
.    25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
.    .    25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s
.    .    .    26w he5w Me4n Me5n Rf1n +-
.    25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
.    .    25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w =
« Last Edit: Feb 18th, 2008, 6:11pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

arimaa_master
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #23 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 4:23am »
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on Feb 18th, 2008, 6:06pm, Fritzlein wrote:

 

24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s
.    25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
.    .    25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s -+
 

 
 
It seems that C&G is in serious trouble now Smiley   (I was looking for another 25w but all lines I examined so far seem to be even worse (or better for us Smiley).
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #24 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 8:27am »
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on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:23am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
 
It seems that C&G is in serious trouble now Smiley   (I was looking for another 25w but all lines I examined so far seem to be even worse (or better for us Smiley).

 
I like those sequence of moves, I alluded to that 25b in my previous post.  Just be aware that we have no imminent capture after C&G probably plays:
 
26w Ce2e he5w Me4n hf5e
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #25 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 9:12am »
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on Feb 19th, 2008, 8:27am, mistre wrote:

 
I like those sequence of moves, I alluded to that 25b in my previous post.  Just be aware that we have no imminent capture after C&G probably plays:
 
26w Ce2e he5w Me4n hf5e

 
We've got to be careful that we don't lose MH for M, or H for nothing if chessandgo frames the horse. If his g horse escapes, that could be the unfortunate result.
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2008, 9:15am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #26 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 9:37am »
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How about:
24b ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2008, 11:31am by jdb » IP Logged
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #27 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 9:51am »
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I found two thingies:
 
1.
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s  
25w Dc4s Ed4w md3n Dc3e
 
looks like the final result is equality (MHR / MHR ).
 
 
2.
 
24b ef4n  ha5e hb5s rg7s
25w Ed4e Me5w Md5w Mc5w
25b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n Dc6x hc4n  
26w Ee4w Mb5s Mb4n rb3n
 
Isn't it a bit shaky for us? Or maybe we should capture his horse first?
 
Quote:
I like those sequence of moves, I alluded to that 25b in my previous post.  Just be aware that we have no imminent capture after C&G probably plays:  
 
26w Ce2e he5w Me4n hf5e

 
Mistre: ef4n Me5n ee4n xxxx was my initial thought but I'll search for something better.
 
 
 
P.S. What's your opinion about replacing rg7s with rb8s/ ra8s/ rh7s in 24b mentioned above? In some lines our E
abandons Jean's H and fights in a different theater; after rg7s we have a frozen and vulnerable rabbit.  
OTOH another trap guardian won't do us harm, so it's hard to say.
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #28 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 10:01am »
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Quote:
How about:  
24b Ef4w he6e hf6e ha5w

 
Wow, JDB, you're thinking outside the box. Very interesting idea. After looking at it for a while I only found 25w Ed4n Me5n Me6w Ed5w as a semi-plausible
answer, but this 25w is not strong.
 
P.S. ef4n he6e hf6e ha5e, right?
 
P.P.S. What about 25w Ed4n Me5e Hg5e Mf5e?
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2008, 10:05am by Soter » IP Logged
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #29 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 11:30am »
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on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:01am, Soter wrote:

 
P.S. ef4n he6e hf6e ha5e, right?
 

 
Elephant west instead of north. I corrected ha5e in the original post.
 
Moving the elephant west makes it harder for gold to retreat his camel.
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