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   Move 24
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   Author  Topic: Move 24  (Read 4185 times)
mistre
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #30 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 12:31pm »
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After doing some more analysis, I still prefer 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s (or maybe rb8s instead).
 
Soter, in both of your findings, I think we come out better in the end.
 
JDB, your move is definitely outside the box, and I think is has some merit.  First glance, I am not sure that it is as strong because it does not put his dog into immediate danger, but more analysis is needed.
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #31 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 1:26pm »
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Quote:
Elephant west instead of north. I corrected ha5e in the original post.  
 
Moving the elephant west makes it harder for gold to retreat his camel.
 
 
24b ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e - OK. I'll do more examination of this move soon. Sorry for my clumsy spelling - too much beer recently  Wink.
 
Quote:
JDB, your move is definitely outside the box, and I think is has some merit.  First glance, I am not sure that it is as strong because it does not put his dog into immediate danger, but more analysis is needed.

 
Gotta admit I'm in two minds regarding my proposed 24b. It poses a grave threat to chessandgo's dog, that's true, but I'm afraid  we miss some critical lines which allow c&g to rescue D and put our H in dire straits. Maybe others will suggest something. I'll try to analyse more and finally make my mind tomorrow. For now,  I have yet another suggestion ( fresh and untested ):
24b ef4w ha5e hb5e xxxx ( xxxx = he6e? rg7s? rb8s? something else? ) - a crossbreed between JDB's move and mine.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #32 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 5:10pm »
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on Feb 19th, 2008, 1:26pm, Soter wrote:

 For now, I have yet another suggestion ( fresh and untested ):
24b ef4w ha5e hb5e xxxx ( xxxx = he6e? rg7s? rb8s? something else? ) - a crossbreed between JDB's move and mine.

 
Unfortunatley, I'm going to disprove of this move, and similar moves, on the grounds that it allows c&g to push our horse onto the c6 trap with his camel, thereby granting him enough time to capture our camel without losing equal material. 25w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w leaves us wanting, I think.  
 
If chessandgo can push a piece onto c6 with his camel and maintain the freeze on our camel at the same time, I think he has accumulated a major advantage. I have not refuted jdb's move, because it does not put the horse on c5.
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2008, 5:18pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #33 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 5:26pm »
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on Feb 19th, 2008, 12:31pm, mistre wrote:
After doing some more analysis, I still prefer 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s (or maybe rb8s instead).

 
I prefer rg7s. It makes it harder for f6 to be defended by gold, and it puts a rabbit nearer the thin southeastern area.
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2008, 5:28pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #34 on: Feb 19th, 2008, 5:46pm »
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Unfortunatley, I'm going to disprove of this move, and similar moves, on the grounds that it allows c&g to push our horse onto the c6 trap with his camel, thereby granting him enough time to capture our camel without losing equal material.

 
Agreed, The_Jeh. I stand corrected.
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2008, 5:47pm by Soter » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #35 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 9:48am »
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on Feb 19th, 2008, 9:37am, jdb wrote:
How about:
24b ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e

This move looks very promising, brilliant even, and I changed it to my favorite because I couldn't refute it.  Since it was my new critical line, I let Bomb think about it overnight just for kicks.  After nine hours Bomb had almost completed a depth of 16 steps (four ply), and its preferred move shocked me: Hg5w Me5w Hf5w Md5w.  It seems that the gold camel can get away after all if the gold horse sacrifices itself.  For example:
 
24b ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e
25w Hg5w Me5w Hf5w Md5w
25b He5n ee4n He6e Hf6x ee5n
26w Dc4w Mc5s md3w Ed4s
 
I have to tip my hat to Bomb for this line.  This is the first time in the game Bomb has shown me something useful.
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #36 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 11:08am »
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Quote:
25w Hg5w Me5w Hf5w Md5w

 
Holy cow. This game amazes me.  
Fritz, do we have anything in our arsenal to be used here? M for HR means equality
( at best ) and MR for HR is simply unacceptable!
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #37 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 12:08pm »
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So, let's review where we stand.
 
If this is the only unrefuted move:
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s -+
 
and these are unclear
 
24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w ?
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e ?
 
then I think we should exhaustively examine 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s and keep dabbling with the other two in case the first one is disproven. It would be nice to move before getting into the reserve.
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2008, 12:11pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #38 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 12:13pm »
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I've been beating on 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s a little, since it is the only line at present that looks to be in our favor according to The_Jeh's leaf evaluations.  (Sorry I haven't double-checked any other lines yet.)  If this critical move can be refuted we need to know at soon as possible because we'll have to scramble to see which other move works best.
 
One side line which shows the importance of our fourth step as rg7s is the following
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s
25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s
25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w
26w Dc4n Md4w Ee3n md3e
26b Hf5n Hf6x ef4n ef5s rc3e
27w Mc4w Dc5s rd3n Dd2n
 
and now the only move I can find to save us from losing both our horse and our camel is
 
27b rg6s rg5s rg4s ef4s !
 
This goes to show how the position hangs by a thread.  We come out fine in that line, but there are many variations to consider, and I would be more comfortable if we considered a few more of them.
 
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #39 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 12:18pm »
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on Feb 20th, 2008, 11:08am, Soter wrote:
Holy cow. This game amazes me.  
Fritz, do we have anything in our arsenal to be used here? M for HR means equality
( at best ) and MR for HR is simply unacceptable!

I couldn't find a good line for us after Bomb's move.  Obviously, I could be missing something since I missed Bomb's move in the first place, but as it stands I think of jdb's move as having been refuted.  It seems to leave us down M for HR, with another rabbit threated: basically I evaluate it as minus a rabbit for us.  I would rather play an unclear line we haven't examined much than play a line with a known crushing response.
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2008, 12:30pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 24
« Reply #40 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 1:19pm »
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I belatedly recalled The_Jeh's tactical trick from the previous move's analysis.  After
 
24b ef4n ha5s ha4e rg7s
25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
 
Our camel is not threatened with immediate capture in f3, so we can spare an extra step to prevent Gold from escaping:
 
25b ef5s Hg5w he6s rg6s
 
because we come out ahead anyway if he takes the rabbit instead
 
26w md3e Ed4s Dc3n rb3e rc3x
26b ef4e Me4e Mf4s Mf3x eg4w
27w Ed3w me3w Ec3w md3w mc3x
27b Hf5n Hf6x ef4n he5w hd5w
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #41 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 1:27pm »
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on Feb 20th, 2008, 12:08pm, The_Jeh wrote:
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s -+

I think it is a bit too optimistic to rate this move a large plus.  If chessandgo wants he can always liquidate by trading MH for MH, which leaves us with only the slight advantage of our extra rabbit which is threatened.  If he goes down this path we are forced to accept this trade.  At the end we can save the rabbit, so we are surely winning, but I don't count it as quite a full rabbit advantage.
 
24b ef4n ha5s ha4e rg7s
25w Ha3n rb3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
25b ef5s Me5e Mf5n Mf6x ef4n
26w Ed3n Dc4s Dc3e Ed4w
26b ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
27w Ec4e hb4e hc4s hc3x Ed4w
27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s =+
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2008, 1:28pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 24
« Reply #42 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 1:48pm »
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24b ef4w he6e hf6s ha5e separates Gold M from Gold H making Gold E the only possible lifeguard for M. But this comes at the cost of exposing our H so I'm very skeptical.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #43 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 2:13pm »
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on Feb 20th, 2008, 1:27pm, Fritzlein wrote:

I think it is a bit too optimistic to rate this move a large plus. If chessandgo wants he can always liquidate by trading MH for MH, which leaves us with only the slight advantage of our extra rabbit which is threatened. If he goes down this path we are forced to accept this trade. At the end we can save the rabbit, so we are surely winning, but I don't count it as quite a full rabbit advantage.
 
24b ef4n ha5s ha4e rg7s
25w Ha3n rb3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
25b ef5s Me5e Mf5n Mf6x ef4n
26w Ed3n Dc4s Dc3e Ed4w
26b ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
27w Ec4e hb4e hc4s hc3x Ed4w
27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s =+

 
I'm sorry, Fritzlein. It seems I've been confusing the symbols. When I wrote -+, I meant a small silver advantage, not a large one, and for =+ I meant a large silver advantage. I know the correct way makes more sense, sorry. At least the signs on my tree are okay (I think).
 
Actually, I would prefer to use the notation =+ for a small advantage and =++ for a large advantage.
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2008, 2:55pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #44 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 2:45pm »
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I would rather play an unclear line we haven't examined much than play a line with a known crushing response.
 
We haven't examined 24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e. Kinda weird if you ask me but maybe has some merit. I'm running out of ideas, so from now on I'm gonna examine others' lines.
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