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   Author  Topic: Move 24  (Read 4023 times)
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #45 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 2:52pm »
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No problem about confusing the symbols.  I didn't exactly explain them, and in any case they are left over from an earlier era of chess.  Nowadays folks have been conditioned by chess computers, so they would probably prefer +1.73 for a large gold advantage and -0.34 for a small silver advantage, etc.  Maybe we should switch to numbers.
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2008, 3:02pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

arimaa_master
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #46 on: Feb 21st, 2008, 5:17am »
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on Feb 20th, 2008, 1:27pm, Fritzlein wrote:

I think it is a bit too optimistic to rate this move a large plus.  If chessandgo wants he can always liquidate by trading MH for MH, which leaves us with only the slight advantage of our extra rabbit which is threatened.  If he goes down this path we are forced to accept this trade.  At the end we can save the rabbit, so we are surely winning, but I don't count it as quite a full rabbit advantage.
 
24b ef4n ha5s ha4e rg7s
25w Ha3n rb3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
25b ef5s Me5e Mf5n Mf6x ef4n
26w Ed3n Dc4s Dc3e Ed4w
26b ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
27w Ec4e hb4e hc4s hc3x Ed4w
27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s =+

 
You are right - now I believe that this is the best what can be played from C&G side.  
 
So lets explore other two unclear possibilities if we could do even better.
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Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #47 on: Feb 21st, 2008, 6:23am »
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24b ef4n ha5e hb5e rg7s
25w Ce2n Dd2e Ce3n Me5w  
25b ef5w Md5n ee5w xxxx ( maybe he6s improves this one ?)
26w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e
 
and both camels are frozen, but Jean may  capture ours on the next move, and we can't capture his ( or at least the capturing sequence is very convoluted ). Additionally, we can't capture his dog. I wonder whether 26b he6e hf6s hf5s xxxx could help ( absolutely mad line leading to some huge bloody exchanges ).
 
 
Quote:
One side line which shows the importance of our  
fourth step as rg7s is the following  
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s  
25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s  
25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w  
26w Dc4n Md4w Ee3n md3e  
26b Hf5n Hf6x ef4n ef5s rc3e  
27w Mc4w Dc5s rd3n Dd2n  
 
and now the only move I can find to save us from losing  
both our horse and our camel is 27b rg6s rg5s rg4s ef4s !  
 

 
Fritzlein, what about deviating after your proposed 26w:
 
26b rc3e Ce2s me3s me2e
 
or better:
 
26b rc3e me3e mf3e mg3n?
 
Alternatively, what about deviating earlier, after 25w:
 
25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w
 
or maybe even:
 
25b Dc4n hb4e ef5w ee5s?
 
I'm not sure if these have been already refuted - a lot has been written in this thread.
 
P.S. Has anyone found a plausible 25w where something comes to f4 after our E rushes to f5? I ask because it would deprive our phant of free space necessary to pefrorm capturing maneuvres (provided that we go with rg7s ).
 
P.P.S. I'll try to look into   The_Jeh's "two unclear moves" ASAP.
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Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #48 on: Feb 21st, 2008, 1:15pm »
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Quote:
So, let's review where we stand.  
 
If this is the only unrefuted move:  
 
24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s -+  
 
and these are unclear  
 
24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w ?  
24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e ?  
 
 
Ok, I dabbled with pieces for a while. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5e dd7s makes c6 zone too crowdy so it's not my favorite.
I didn't follow 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w very far, but I can't see any way to squeeze more than equality ( = camel trade and loss of our advanced rabbit ).
 
I looked at 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s for a moment and found an unusual 25w Ed4e md3n Ee4e md4e ( it may be used in other lines as well i think) which threatens Silver camel, makes Gold camel and horse uncapturable by half-blocking our phant (!) while leaving Gold dog at our mercy.
Finally, I wasn't able to find a powerful answer for Gold after 24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e ( new one ) which uses our e6 horse to block the Gold camel, slightly decrease Gold phant's mobility and indirectly threaten Gold dog. I'm no champion of deep move analysis though, and don't have much time now so plz somebody check the last two mentioned things, ok?
 
P.S. If, as The_Jeh suggests, reserve should be left untouched, then voting time's coming ( it usually last 36 hours ).
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2008, 1:30pm by Soter » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #49 on: Feb 21st, 2008, 2:17pm »
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on Feb 21st, 2008, 1:15pm, Soter wrote:
I looked at 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s for a moment and found an unusual 25w Ed4e md3n Ee4e md4e ( it may be used in other lines as well i think) which threatens Silver camel, makes Gold camel and horse uncapturable by half-blocking our phant (!) while leaving Gold dog at our mercy.

 
I think 25b he6w hd6s Me5n ef5w still leaves us with an advantage.
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2008, 2:17pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
arimaa_master
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #50 on: Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:36am »
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on Feb 21st, 2008, 1:15pm, Soter wrote:

 
 
Ok, I dabbled with pieces for a while. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5e dd7s makes c6 zone too crowdy so it's not my favorite.
I didn't follow 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w very far, but I can't see any way to squeeze more than equality ( = camel trade and loss of our advanced rabbit ).
 
I looked at 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s for a moment and found an unusual 25w Ed4e md3n Ee4e md4e ( it may be used in other lines as well i think) which threatens Silver camel, makes Gold camel and horse uncapturable by half-blocking our phant (!) while leaving Gold dog at our mercy.
Finally, I wasn't able to find a powerful answer for Gold after 24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e ( new one ) which uses our e6 horse to block the Gold camel, slightly decrease Gold phant's mobility and indirectly threaten Gold dog. I'm no champion of deep move analysis though, and don't have much time now so plz somebody check the last two mentioned things, ok?
 
P.S. If, as The_Jeh suggests, reserve should be left untouched, then voting time's coming ( it usually last 36 hours ).

 
 
your proposed  
 
24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e
 
seems to be very good. I didn´t find a way how chessandgo could force a MH trade or to simplify or come near to equalization. So for now it seems to me like a new favorite.
 
 
 
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #51 on: Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:49am »
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on Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:36am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
 
your proposed  
 
24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e
 
seems to be very good. I didn´t find a way how chessandgo could force a MH trade or to simplify or come near to equalization. So for now it seems to me like a new favorite.
 
 
 

 
24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e
25w hd5w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s
25b ef5s Me4n ef4w xxxx
 
and chessandgo threatens to push the horse onto b6, a trick I mentioned before. If 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5e, then 26w Hg5w Me5n Me6e Mf6e.
 
And I can't find any other 25b's that I like. Please double-check this. I don't mean to stir up trouble, but I want to avoid what happened last time.
« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:49am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
mistre
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #52 on: Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:52am »
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on Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:36am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
 
your proposed  
 
24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e
 
seems to be very good. I didn´t find a way how chessandgo could force a MH trade or to simplify or come near to equalization. So for now it seems to me like a new favorite.
 
 
 

In this scenario, I think C&G would just go ahead and take the camel on 25w.  The end result looks to be an even camel trade, although we might be able to save our advanced rabbit.
« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:56am by mistre » IP Logged

Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #53 on: Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:11am »
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Quote:
I don't mean to stir up trouble

But you're not stirring up trouble! There's no reason to hide your doubts, The_Jeh.
 
The question is: do we like HDR for MR? - since this is where this move leads us I think ( HDR for M looks impossible or at least very remote )?
 
Quote:
24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e  
25w hd5w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s  
25b ef5s Me4n ef4w xxxx

I thought about killing Gold D by double-drag on 25b. Then the only way for chessandgo to save his frozen H without abandoning our M is 26w Rg1n Rg2n Rg3n Hg5e ( after that it's unclear to me ).  
 
If he kills our M on 26w, we capture his H ( and unfortunately he kills our R ). I got mixed feelings about the resulting position.OTOH, if on 25w our H is not pushed west ( to c5 ) but north, then Gold D is not in danger and we are weakened ( We may react 25b hb5e hc5w Dc4n hd6s, but  too dangerous to our horses ). So 25w hd5n Ed4n Me5s Ed5s seems to refute my last proposal - and even if I'm wrong, this move seems to contain too many surprises. IMO we have neither time nor necessity - we already have ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s - to explore them all. Please tell if you see something in it that I missed ( highly probable ) . I'm waiting for Fritzlein's comments and then I'll be ready to vote.
« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:16am by Soter » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #54 on: Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:11pm »
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on Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:11am, Soter wrote:
I'm waiting for Fritzlein's comments and then I'll be ready to vote.

Oh, darn, I was just waiting for your comments so that I would know how to vote.  Tongue
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #55 on: Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:35pm »
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I'm ready to vote. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s is good enough, in my opinion.
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99of9
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #56 on: Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:52pm »
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My internet has slowed down so that I haven't been able to open the board.  Can someone post the board config in text?
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #57 on: Feb 23rd, 2008, 12:18am »
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1  R R R . . R R .
2  . . . C D C R R
3  . . x . m x r H
4  . . e . E D . .
5  . H . M . . . h
6  . . x h . x . .
7  r r d c d c . .
8  . r r . . r r r
 
   h g f e d c b a
« Last Edit: Feb 23rd, 2008, 12:21am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #58 on: Feb 23rd, 2008, 12:41am »
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Thanks Jeh.
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Soter
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Re: Move 24
« Reply #59 on: Feb 23rd, 2008, 4:26am »
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Quote:
Oh, darn, I was just waiting for your comments so that I would know how to vote.

Jeez, Fritzlein, if a 2400+ player, a former and future (very likely) World Champion is waiting for   directions from an overrated 1900+ fellow who opened the planning window eight or nine times, then the world's surely coming to an end  Roll Eyes Smiley. I try to do my best for the mob but sometimes the more I analyse the less I'm certain of.
Quote:
I'm ready to vote. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s is good enough, in my opinion.

Gets my #1 too, I think.
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