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Arimaa Forum Move 30


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   Move 30
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   Author  Topic: Move 30  (Read 1960 times)
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #15 on: May 2nd, 2008, 3:32pm »
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on May 2nd, 2008, 12:17pm, RonWeasley wrote:
I think we're all busy playing the Owl Mixer.

It's not my move in any games except the eight where I'm not sure what to do.  Tongue  Does anyone remember why I decided to sign up for thirteen this year?  I forget.  Smiley
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99of9
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #16 on: May 2nd, 2008, 11:43pm »
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on Apr 25th, 2008, 10:49pm, Fritzlein wrote:
The attacking move 30b Rf2s dg2w df2w de2w that I earlier liked superficially seems completely neutralized by 31w Rc1e Rb1e Rf1w Re1n.

Another option is a line that doesn't permit this, but offers a rabbit as bait:
30b Rf2n dg2w df2w de2w
31w Cg3n Cg4n rg6w rf6x Cg5n
31b ce7e hd6e he6e dd7s
32w Rf3n Rf4n Ed4e De3s
32b rh7s Cg6n hf6e ed3e rc3x
 
Now we're actually one rabbit behind, but we have threats on rabbit, cat, dog and goal.  I think the final position favours us.  How would everyone play differently as gold?
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2008, 11:44pm by 99of9 » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #17 on: May 2nd, 2008, 11:48pm »
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on May 2nd, 2008, 11:43pm, 99of9 wrote:

30b Rf2n dg2w df2w de2w

I suppose he could play
31w De3s Rf3w Rc1e Rb1e
and gets to a position similar to the one Fritz is worried about.
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99of9
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #18 on: May 3rd, 2008, 12:00am »
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on May 2nd, 2008, 3:25pm, Fritzlein wrote:

My vote for move 30 is presently 30b hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s, swarming in the west after all.

How would you reply after:
31w Ha4e Ed4w Ec4n Ra2n
 
I personally am not afraid of an EH attack.  Remember that is in some sense equivalent to an EM attack at the start of a game (where I would be delighted for my opponent to do this, because it presents an opportunity to take the M hostage).  I agree it's less favourable now that pieces are off the board, but I'm still not worried by it.
« Last Edit: May 3rd, 2008, 12:01am by 99of9 » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #19 on: May 3rd, 2008, 3:56pm »
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on May 3rd, 2008, 12:00am, 99of9 wrote:
I personally am not afraid of an EH attack.  Remember that is in some sense equivalent to an EM attack at the start of a game (where I would be delighted for my opponent to do this, because it presents an opportunity to take the M hostage).  I agree it's less favourable now that pieces are off the board, but I'm still not worried by it.

Do you mean that you are not afraid of chessandgo launching an EH attack, or he should not be afraid of ours, or both?  
 
Quote:

How would you reply after:
31w Ha4e Ed4w Ec4n Ra2n

If we threaten to swarm, I think the main strategic options for chessandgo are (A) take our horse hostage with his elephant and try to get good play with his horse as the strongest free piece, particularly against our exposed dog on g2 or (B) attempt to swarm in the west as well, only better and faster than we do.  (I think it is implausible for him to make material threats in c6 if we are swarming.)  Your suggested move looks dangerous because it keeps both options A and B alive for him, while making it harder for our horse to get to b3.  On the other hand, you have occupied a3 with a rabbit, taking up the best hostage square.  If his elephant takes our horse hostage on a4 instead of a3, his horse will not be able to roam quite as freely, since our hostage will be six steps from capture rather than four.  I think after your move we can and must continue swarming as aggressively as possible, for example with 31b rb7s hb5w ha5s rb6s.  If Gold then chooses strategy (A), we might see the sequence
 
30b hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s
31w Ed4w Ec4n Ha4e Ra2n
31b rb7s hb5w ha5s rb6s
32w Ec5s rb5e Hb4n Ec4w
32b dd7s dd6s dd5s dd4w
33w rc5n Hb5e dc4e Hc5s
33b ra8s ra7s rc6w rb6s
 
Golly I wish we had move 29 back, because an extra move here could be ra6s rc8w rb8s rb7s, when we would actually be threatening to win his horse.  Despite our loss of time, Gold will have to move fast to prevent us closing in on him.  Gold would really like to hold the hostage on b4 instead of a4, but I don't quite see how that is possible.  Do you like the final position in my line for Gold or Silver?  I rather think we would be winning, but opinions may differ, and of course Gold can deviate sooner.  I haven't even looked at the counter-swarm option, although I'm actually a bit more afraid of that than of having our horse taken hostage on a4.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #20 on: May 3rd, 2008, 4:02pm »
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on May 2nd, 2008, 11:48pm, 99of9 wrote:

I suppose he could play
31w De3s Rf3w Rc1e Rb1e
and gets to a position similar to the one Fritz is worried about.

Yes, I had looked at this option in response to pushing the f2 rabbit north instead of south.  As before, I am not sure that he needs all four steps on defense at once, as just Rc1e Rb1e initially might be enough, with the possibility of his dog coming back on defense if necessary.  At the moment I rank an attack on c2 as worse than giving up our rabbit, because it seems to me a further waste of time that causes our rabbit to be eventually lost anyway with a worse position for us than we could get by giving it up now.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #21 on: May 3rd, 2008, 4:18pm »
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After we start a swarm, the immediate horse crossing doesn't look quite fast enough for Gold to play:
 
30b hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s
31w Ed4n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4e
31b hb5s Db3w hb4s dd7s
32w Ed5w Ec5s Hd4e He4e
32b ed3n ed4e rc3e rf8s
 
or
 
30b hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s
31w Ed4n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4e
31b hb5s Db3w hb4s dd7s
32w Hd4e Ed5s Ed4w Rc1e
32b De3s ed3e Cg3e dg2n
 
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99of9
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #22 on: May 5th, 2008, 12:20am »
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on May 3rd, 2008, 3:56pm, Fritzlein wrote:

Do you mean that you are not afraid of chessandgo launching an EH attack, or he should not be afraid of ours, or both?

The first.  If he does it, we will contest with the E, and may get an H hostage out of it.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #23 on: May 6th, 2008, 12:48pm »
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And TheMob follows the loudest voice with hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s.  I don't think we were too sure about this one, but we pretty much acted like a mob.
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mistre
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #24 on: May 6th, 2008, 12:59pm »
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Not only the "loudest" voice, but the most experienced one as well.
 
Can the swarm work?  I think we all want to find that out before just giving up on our framed rabbit.
 
The 3rd option of bringing the dog around the backside of f3 seemed to be very strong at first, but turned into a mirage.  Arimaa can do that to you sometimes.  Hopefully, 29b did not cost us too much momentum and can actually serve a purpose.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 30
« Reply #25 on: May 6th, 2008, 1:52pm »
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on May 6th, 2008, 12:48pm, RonWeasley wrote:
And TheMob follows the loudest voice with hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s.  I don't think we were too sure about this one, but we pretty much acted like a mob.

This is the least analysis I have ever had to do to be persuasive.  I'm basically going on gut feel given how few lines I played out this time.  I wonder if nobody else looked at it much, or agreed with the swarm on the basis of whatever analysis they did, and thus didn't bother to argue.  I really don't know how we stand now.  We may look back on this as the last time we could have given up our rabbit and still had an initiative.  I wonder if chessandgo will play 99of9's suggestion, which looks strong, or go a completely different route.
 
For the record:

    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .  1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
1. hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s (h->b5, r->b7)  .    .    .    .    .    .   -  7  7  8  8  8  8
2. hd6w hc6w dd7s ra8s (h->b6, d->d6, r->a7)     .    .    .    .   1  -  4  6  6  8  6
3. De3n ed3e rc3x De4n ee3n (D->e5, e->e4, lose r)    .    .    .   1  4  -  5  4  6  5
4. Rf2s dg2w df2w de2w (R->f1, d->d2)  .    .    .    .    .    .   0  2  3  -  4  4  4
5. Rf2s dg2w De3s ed3e rc3x (R->f1, d->f2, D->e2, e->e3, lose r)    0  2  3  4  -  4  4
6. Rf2n dg2w df2w ce7s (R->f3, d->e2, c->e6)     .    .    .    .   0  0  2  2  4  -  4
7. Cg3e dg2n De3n ed3e rc3x (C->h3, d->g3, D->e4, e->e3, lose r)    0  2  2  4  2  4  -
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