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   Author  Topic: Move 34  (Read 2837 times)
99of9
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #15 on: Jun 13th, 2008, 7:07pm »
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on Jun 13th, 2008, 10:42am, mistre wrote:
I think this one is my favorite move (proposed by Fritz) and we need to be analyzing it in more depth.  It appears to hold the most promise so far...
 
34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s

How do we save our pieces after:
35w De3n rd4n De4w Da3n
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #16 on: Jun 13th, 2008, 8:34pm »
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on Jun 13th, 2008, 7:07pm, 99of9 wrote:

How do we save our pieces after:
35w De3n rd4n De4w Da3n

I intended to answer that with 35b dc4w ra8s ra7s a6s, intending to respond to his capturing our dog by pushing his dog to c5 with capture to follow, but now I see that doesn't work because he can pull our dog through to leave his horse on f4.  I guess my inferiority to computers is showing  Embarassed
[edit] Oh, wait, I forgot that if his dog leaves, f3 is vulnerable.  After 35b dc4n ed3e Re2s ee3s, he can't take our HD for HC, because our position would be very strong in the aftermath.  Consider that he has voluntarily moved his dog away even further than we were considering pushing or pulling it away in other lines.  But Gold has lots of other tries in that line apart from taking our horse.
« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2008, 8:39pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

99of9
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #17 on: Jun 14th, 2008, 3:44am »
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on Jun 13th, 2008, 8:34pm, Fritzlein wrote:
After 35b dc4n ed3e Re2s ee3s, he can't take our HD for HC, because our position would be very strong in the aftermath.  Consider that he has voluntarily moved his dog away even further than we were considering pushing or pulling it away in other lines.  But Gold has lots of other tries in that line apart from taking our horse.

Yes, something like this might cause trouble:
36w Rc2n Rc3e Rd3e Rg1w
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #18 on: Jun 14th, 2008, 7:54am »
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on Jun 14th, 2008, 3:44am, 99of9 wrote:

Yes, something like this might cause trouble:
36w Rc2n Rc3e Rd3e Rg1w

It is indeed messy, but 36b Hf2n ee2e dg2s Cg3s preserves our material advantage for a bit longer.  Gold has gained activity in the past couple of moves, but in the process temporarily lost control of the hostage dog.  This and other lines deserve further examination before we bubble conclusions back up to the root.
« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2008, 7:56am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

warren
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #19 on: Jun 14th, 2008, 8:11am »
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on Jun 13th, 2008, 7:07pm, 99of9 wrote:

How do we save our pieces after:
35w De3n rd4n De4w Da3n

 
Last move on page 4, Fritzlein suggested that the following line was nearly winning for us:
 
34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s (F)
 .35w De3n rd4n De4w Da3n (F)
 . 35b ed3e Re2s ee3s dc4n
 .  36w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
 .   36b Hf2n ee2e Cg3n Hf3x dg2n
 .    37w Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
 .     37b Cg4w dg3n Cf4s Cf3x dg4w
 
I haven't actually looked at this line recently, but I thought I'd bring that line up since no one seemed to have mentioned it yet.
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warren
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #20 on: Jun 14th, 2008, 8:21am »
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The game tree seemed useful last move, so here's an updated one for this move. As before, I'll update this post as more moves are suggested.
 
Popular moves
==============
 34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s (F)
  35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3n (AM)
   35b ee3w dd5w dc5s rb7s (the jeh)
    36w Re2n Hf2w He2e rd2e
.....36b Re3n ed3e re2w ee3w
   35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s (Fritzlein)
    36w Da3n Da4e Db4e Df4w
 .    36b Rc2s dc3s ed3w rb7s (trying to trade dogs)
.    .    37w Hf2n dg2w Hf3w df2n df3x
.    .    .    37b Dc4n ec3n ce7w cd7s  
.    .    .    .    38w De4n De5w cd6e Dd5n
.    .    .    .    .    38b dc2n Rc1n dc3e Rc2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Re2e He3s He2n rd2e
.    36b Rc2s dc3s Rb1w hb2s
.    .    37w Hf2n dg2w Hf3w df2n df3x
.    .    .    37b dc2n Rc1n Rc2w dc3s
.    .    .    .    38w Eb3e dc2s Ec3s Dc4w
.    .    .    .    .    38b ed3n De4n ed4e ce7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Rb2n Db4e Dc4s Dc3e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    39b De5e ee4n Df5n Df6x ee5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40w Ec2w dc1n dc2n dc3x Eb2e
.    .    .    .    .    38b ed3n ed4w Db4n ec4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w De4w Dd4s Rb2n Re2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    39b Db5e eb4n Dc5n Dc6x eb5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40w Ec2w dc1n dc2n dc3x Eb2e
.    .    .    37b dc2w Rc1n Rc2n db2e
.    .    .    .    38w Eb3s Rc3w dc2n Eb2e
.    .    .    .    .    38b Rb3n dc3w Rb4n db3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Dc4n Rb5w Dc5w Rh1n
.    36b Rc2s dc3s Ra2n hb2w (trying to make space)
.    .    37w Hf2n dg2w Hf3w df2n df3x
.    .    .    37b dc2w Rc1n Rc2n db2e
.    .    .    .    38w Rd1w Re1w Ra3n Ra4n
.    .    .    .    .    38b ha2s Rb1n ha1e rc8w
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Rb2w Ra2n Eb3s Ra3e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    39b ed3n Dc4n ed4w rb7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40w He3w De4n De5w Dc5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40b ec4e Rc3n Hd3w ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    41w Rc4e Hc3n dc2n Eb2e  
 
 
 
 34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s (F)
 .35w Re2w Da3n Rb1w Ra2n
 . 35b De3e ed3e rd4s ra8s
 .  36w Da4n Da5n Da6e Ra3n
 .   36b dc4s dc3n Rc2n ee3s
 .    37w Df3w Db6n cc7s cc6x Db7e
 .     37b ee2s Rd2e dc4e rd3s
 .     .38w De3w hb2w Eb3s Rc1e
 .     . 38b Re2n ee1n rb5s rb4s
 .     .  39w Rc3n Dd3w rd2n Dc3s
 .     .   39b ee2w Dc2n ed2w rd3s
 .     .    40w Hf2w rd2n He2w Ra4n
 .     .     40b Rc4w Dc3x dd4w dc4n dc5w  
 .35w De3n rd4n De4w Da3n (F)
 . 35b ed3e Re2s ee3s dc4n
 .  36w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
 .   36b Hf2n ee2e Cg3n Hf3x dg2n
 .    37w Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
 .     37b Cg4w dg3n Cf4s Cf3x dg4w (winning for us?)
  35b dc4w ra8s ra7s a6s (F)
  35b dc4n ed3e Re2s ee3s (F)
   36w Rc2n Rc3e Rd3e Rg1w (99)
    36b Hf2n ee2e dg2e Cg3s (F)
 
Other moves
==================
 
34b De3n ed3e Re2s ee3s (Gnobot 15 ply)
 35w De4s rd4e Rg1w Rc1e   (mistre)
  35b De3e ee2n ee3w dd5s
   36w Df3n Da3n Da4e Db4e  (and bad for us?)
  35b Hf2n ee2e dg2e Cg3s (the jeh)
    36w Hf3e Re1n Rd1n Da3n (99)
  35b Hf2n ee2e dg2s Cg3s (jeh)
    36w Hf3e Re1n Rd1n Da3n (99)
 
34b ed3s De3w Re2s ed2e (the jeh)
 35w Dd3e Rg1w Rc2e Rd1n (mistre)   [originally stated as  35w ... ... ... Rd1n]
  35b De3e ee2n ee3w rd4w
   36w Df3n Eb3n Eb4s rc4w (bad for us?)
  35b Hf2n ee2e dg2e Cg3s (the jeh)
    36w Hf3e Re1n Rd1n Da3n (99)
  35b Hf2n ee2e dg2s Cg3s (jeh)
    36w Hf3e Re1n Rd1n Da3n (99)
 
34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s
  35w Df3n Rc1e Da3n Da4e
   35b ed3e rd4s dd5w dc5s
    36w Db4n Eb3n Eb4s dc4w (Warren)
.....36b ee3n Df4n ee4e ce7s (Warren)
..... 37w Eb3e Ec3w rd3wx Db5w
.....  37b Df5nx ef4n ef5w ee5w
.....   38w Eb3w hb2n hb3ex Ea3e
.....    38b ed5w ec5w db4e dc4n
.....     39w Hf2s dg2w df2nx Hf1n
 
Refuted moves ?
==================
 
34b rd4w rc4s dd5s dd4w (AM)
 35w Re2w Eb3n Eb4s dc4w. (F)
 
34b De3n ed3e rd4s rd3s (UruramTururam)
(Appears to be worse than 34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s)
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jdb
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #21 on: Jun 14th, 2008, 10:27am »
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I don't have a specific move to suggest (yet), just some general strategic thoughts.
 
Silver has two pieces held hostage and only two cats defending. This means a slow plan is out of the question. In order for a goal attack to work, silver needs to have control of an enemy trap. Gold's elephant has the c3 trap at least under shared control. So Silver needs to gain control of the f3 trap. There are lots of tactical resources in the position, but at the end of the day, silver's best threats will come on the side of the board away from the gold elephant.  
 
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #22 on: Jun 14th, 2008, 7:09pm »
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I somewhat disagree with that strategic assessment, JDB.  It is possible that a control (slow) plan rather than a race (fast) plan will work for us in this position.  Specifically we might be able to share control of c3 with DR+hostage H for long enough to take control of f3 with E+hostage D, and this may work better than direct goal threats.  Our defensive cats are weak, true, but chessandgo has no advanced rabbits at the moment, so playing for control won't inevitably lose us a goal race.  I'm all for a race plan if it appears it will work, but I don't think it is our only option.
 
Actually, our vote last move for arimaa_master's suggestion rather than Gnobot's suggestion was already halfway a commitment to play for control rather than goal, and I'll bet 99of9 still thinks we made the wrong choice.  Wink
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #23 on: Jun 15th, 2008, 4:53am »
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I somewhat disagree with that strategic assessment, Fritz.   Smiley
 
If gold only has the Elephant available to fight for c3, then a control based plan looks promising. A silver DR combination would be able to maintain the balance there for a while. However, Gold's dog on a3 is available to fight for the c3 trap as well. This will reduce the amount of time silver's DR combination can hold the trap. Whether or not this makes a critical difference or not, I am not sure.
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #24 on: Jun 17th, 2008, 5:57am »
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After looking at this move sequence for a while, it looks like gold has a really strong position, so I am not in favour of this move.
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s (F)
  35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3n (AM)  
 
For this move, things look better.
34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s (F)
 
On 34b, would it be possible to play d->c4 and use the other two steps to advance a rabbit on the other side of the board?
34b d->c4 r->g4
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Re: Movee 34
« Reply #25 on: Jun 17th, 2008, 11:46am »
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on Jun 17th, 2008, 5:57am, jdb wrote:
On 34b, would it be possible to play d->c4 and use the other two steps to advance a rabbit on the other side of the board?
34b d->c4 r->g4

Without the advanced b-rabbit, I was afraid of 35w Re2w Eb3n Eb4s dc4w.  I don't know if that refutes your suggestion, though, since I didn't consider advancing an eastern rabbit.
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Re: Movee 34
« Reply #26 on: Jun 17th, 2008, 12:27pm »
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on Jun 17th, 2008, 11:46am, Fritzlein wrote:

Without the advanced b-rabbit, I was afraid of 35w Re2w Eb3n Eb4s dc4w. I don't know if that refutes your suggestion, though, since I didn't consider advancing an eastern rabbit.

 
Ok thanks, I'll take a look at it.
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #27 on: Jun 19th, 2008, 12:19pm »
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Discussion seems to have slowed while the latest posts indicate some mobsters want more time to think.  Let's try to finish and vote, but let us know if anybody wants to use more time (and the others can breath down your neck).
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Re: Movee 34
« Reply #28 on: Jun 19th, 2008, 12:35pm »
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on Jun 17th, 2008, 12:27pm, jdb wrote:

 
Ok thanks, I'll take a look at it.

 
I'm done looking and ready to vote.
It looks like the b rabbit will need to advance anyway, to keep the dog mobile.
 
The following move seems best to me:
34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s (F)
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Re: Move 34
« Reply #29 on: Jun 19th, 2008, 4:17pm »
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I'll second that move.
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