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Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 13
(Message started by: RonWeasley on Sep 5th, 2007, 11:27am)

Title: Move 13
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 5th, 2007, 11:27am
chessandgo plays 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w.  I hope we had that one on the game tree!

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by Janzert on Sep 5th, 2007, 11:41am
Looks like this would be the relevant section:

.    13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
.    .    13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (we win race unless Gold complicates)
.    .    .    14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (complicating?)
.    .    .    .    14b ha6e me6e Rh5w hh6n (he's in more trouble than us)

Janzert

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by The_Jeh on Sep 5th, 2007, 1:21pm
I think Chessandgo made a mistake this time. For now I support the previously proposed 13b listed above.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by mdk on Sep 5th, 2007, 2:42pm

on 09/05/07 at 13:21:33, The_Jeh wrote:
I think Chessandgo made a mistake this time. For now I support the previously proposed 13b listed above.


I think that Chessandgo made a mistake as well, but we must remember that we completely missed the rabbit pull for 12w for a number of moves. Unfortunately I will no longer be able to make contributions anywhere close to comparable to that which i made last week as my last year of high school started today and i already have 4 chapters of biology, 2 chapters of statistics, a 3 page essay, a program for computer science, and some smaller assignments due on friday with much more to come. I'll still try and contribute as much as I can though. I hope that a greater portion of the mob will contribute actively for this move and on future ones as I believe that the deep discussion last week enormously improved our understanding of the position and the ability of the mob to maintain the positional lead i believe we have.

[edit] I should also mention that unless some analysis shows that the previously mentioned 13b is flawed I think it is a continuation that will maintain the advantage we now have.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by UruramTururam on Sep 5th, 2007, 5:19pm
Our situation on the left wing is fairly safe we can pull the Wabbit now or later...

How about:

13b ed4w rb3w ec4n Hc3n

Instead of racing - threaten the horse (not only to be dragged towards the nearest trap but also to be pushed or pulled into our camel neighborhood with a fork threat).


Title: Re: Move 13
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 5th, 2007, 5:51pm
This time for sure we can have a snap vote.  ;-)

All right, I admit, things are never as simple as they first appear, but check my logic.  Right now we are eight steps from capturing Silver's rabbit, and he is four steps from capturing ours.  After 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w, we are six steps from capturing his rabbit, and he is eight steps from even framing ours.  It seems like a highly efficient move to take us from four steps behind in the race, not just to even, but to more than two steps ahead.

How can chessandgo complicate and make it not just a race he is losing?  He can defend his rabbit and try to get frame versus frame, but since his dog is on b3, our horse is a threat to break his frame, unless he wastes time untangling.  Let's look at 14w Eb5e Ec5e Db3s Hc3w.  He can try an elephant-horse attack on one of our traps, but not without blocking out our camel first.  The 14w I gave before was for an attack on c6 that looks feeble, so maybe attacking f6 is better.  Let's look at 14w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e Ee5n.

Finally, he can attack our camel.  This was mdk's suggestion in similar lines, and very natural since our advanced camel sort of frustrates any attempts by chessandgo to launch an EH attack.  So we need to look at  14w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e md6s.

The proto-tree:

13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (race: we win unless Gold complicates)
.    14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (threaten c6)
.    .    14b ha6e me6e Rh5w hh6n (he's in more trouble than us)
.    14w Eb5e Ec5e Db3s Hc3w (untangle)
.    14w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e Ee5n (threaten f6)
.    .    15b hh6w Ra5n ec4e Hc3n
.    14w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e md6s (threaten camel)
.    14w Eb5n Eb6n Eb7s Rb8s
13b ed4w rb4w ec4n Hc3n (pull horse and restrict opposing elephant)
.    14w Db3e Hc4w ra4s Hb4w
13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w ha6e

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by 99of9 on Sep 5th, 2007, 5:55pm

on 09/05/07 at 11:41:01, Janzert wrote:
.    .    13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (we win race unless Gold complicates)
.    .    .    14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (complicating?)

I think we should consider doing something else with our final step.  Perhaps protect against chessandgo pulling another rabbit?  ha6e? or something else?

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 5th, 2007, 6:05pm

on 09/05/07 at 17:55:07, 99of9 wrote:
I think we should consider doing something else with our final step.  Perhaps protect against chessandgo pulling another rabbit?  ha6e? or something else?

Golly, to me rb4w is the best step of our move!  With an investment of just one step, we cause a three-step delay.  It's true that ha6e delays our b8 rabbit being pulled, but it invests one step to cause a one-step delay.  On previous moves I have even argued for saving fractions of tempos, in contrast to which rb4w seems like a clear two-tempo win.  My only hesitation about it would be the potential offsetting two-tempo loss of moving our elephant out of the center and back in again later to protect our camel.  If we are going to move the elephant to c4 anyway, it seems like scooting the rabbit to a4 as well is all gravy.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by jdb on Sep 5th, 2007, 6:48pm

on 09/05/07 at 17:55:07, 99of9 wrote:
I think we should consider doing something else with our final step. Perhaps protect against chessandgo pulling another rabbit? ha6e? or something else?


I agree.

We need to think about what we want to do *after* we get the h4 rabbit either captured or framed on the f6 trap. (This is the first priority) Silver's elephant on c4 makes the capture of our rabbit difficult. If we move it to a4, gold may just decide to leave it there and start some other operation. Looking at the position, our camel on d6 is slightly exposed, so maybe use the final step to move it to a safer square?

With the silver rabbit on b4, the silver horse on the a file has an open path to head up the board, if gold's elephant wanders off. If the silver rabbit is on a4, it acts as a block for the horse.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 5th, 2007, 8:08pm
I prefer moving rb4w.  I like the tempo we gain and I like that if the E wanders off we have a better threat if we get to pull the D to b4.  If that happens the worst is that the r on a4 forces a fleeing dog to use an additional step.

I don't see the h on a6 going down the a file unless we block out the M.  Instead I like that h as a possible puller of dogs.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 5th, 2007, 9:47pm

on 09/05/07 at 18:48:02, jdb wrote:
Looking at the position, our camel on d6 is slightly exposed, so maybe use the final step to move it to a safer square?

If we use just the fourth step to move our camel, we lose a piece.  If we use the third and fourth steps to move our camel, we lose our rabbit.  It seems that, to make our camel safer without losing anything, we have to give up pulling the rabbit this turn.  Is there a specific move that catches your fancy?

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by The_Jeh on Sep 5th, 2007, 9:56pm
I prefer moving the rabbit west, too. If we leave it on b4, Chessandgo will likely find a way to put it on the trap and pin our elephant.

For example, if we play 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w xxxx(not rb4w), then:
14w Db3s rb4s Hc3e rb3e

And unless we waste three steps and decentralize our elephant with
14b rc3w ec4w rb3w xxxx
we either lose our rabbit or get our elephant pinned. If instead we play:
14b rc3w ec4w rb3w eb4e
then
15w Db2n Db3s ra3e Eb5s
and again, either our rabbit is lost or our elephant gets pinned.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by arimaa_master on Sep 6th, 2007, 6:08am
I fully support 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w. It seems to me quite clear this time. Let's vote!

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by jdb on Sep 6th, 2007, 8:33am

Quote:
13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (race: we win unless Gold complicates)
.    14w Eb5e Ec5e Db3s Hc3w (untangle)


What is silver's best move after gold plays the untangle line?

14b hh6w Rh5n cc7e md6e    leaves the camel a little exposed.

14b hh6w Rh5n dd8s md6w
I think this looks ok, or does gold have something?

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 6th, 2007, 8:35am
I want to be sure the minority gets their say.  UT, jdb, 99, others, do you have any additional support for alternatives to 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w?  Otherwise I could start the vote.

Or as an alternative, since me, Fritz, mdk, Jeh, and a_master (any others?) are advocating the same move, I could consider these "voice" votes.  Since we only seem to have 11 voters currently, one more voice vote for this move would seal the majority (6) and I could just make that move and save time.  NOTE: I realize this may be too abrupt.  Anybody who doesn't like this idea, please speak up.  I am making many assumptions here.  I will not do voice vote if even only one person disagrees.  (We are trying to be a nice mob.)

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by camelback on Sep 6th, 2007, 9:53am
Ron,

I think 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w is good and has my vote.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by Janzert on Sep 6th, 2007, 10:23am
So far I would put 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w as my top choice as well and it'd be nice to gain the large amount of reserve back by using the "voice vote". If you played at the 5d time remaining (approximately 20 hours from now) that would put us back at almost 18 days reserve.

So if no one came up with an objection today I would certainly be in favor of you just playing it Ron.

Janzert

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by woh on Sep 6th, 2007, 10:56am
13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w also has my vote.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by jdb on Sep 6th, 2007, 12:07pm
13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w has my vote.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 6th, 2007, 2:56pm
My current top choice is also 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w.

I agree that if there is even one request for it, then we should have the regular Condorcet voting process.  Indeed, even one private request to the Coordinator should be enough to trigger a formal vote, so that people don't feel too intimidated to speak up.  The right to a secret ballot should be fundamental, and (obviously) a voice vote can't be secret.

On the other hand, since there seems to be a clear majority, I support having the formal vote quickly to regain reserve.  I don't think the Coordinator should have the power to overrule any individual who wants the vote to be secret, but I do think the Coordinator should have the power to overrule individuals who want to prolong the discussion, if (in the Coordinator's opinion) further discussion is unlikely to change the outcome.  Using good judgment about the schedule is one of the main reasons to even have a Coordinator, rather than simply a rigid procedure.

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 6th, 2007, 3:26pm
The concensus is overwhelming.  I'm going to make the move now.

I agree with Fritzlein's comments about the Coordinator.  So far, TheMob has been very well behaved and hasn't needed much more than a nudge to conclude discussion.

Also, I agree that if anybody wants to talk to me confidentially, they are welcome to e-mail me directly.  If fact, it's already been done!

Title: Re: Move 13
Post by UruramTururam on Sep 6th, 2007, 3:32pm
Yes, the situation is pretty straightforward now; pull-retreat seems to be the best move.



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