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Title: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 5th, 2007, 8:27pm 14b ec4e Hc3n md5w hh6w . 15w Db3e Hc4w Hb4s Ee5w . . 15b ed4w mc5w ec4n Dc3n . . . 16w Ed5s Dc4s Ed4w Hb3w . . . . 16b hg6e hh6w Ra5n Ha6s . . . . . 17w Ha3e ra4s Cc2w Dc3s . . . . . . 17b ec5e ed5s ed4s mb5n (=+) . 15w Ee5w mc5w Ed5w Hc4s . . 15b ha6s mb5n ed4w hg6e (=+) Here's what's left of my tree. The main line is awfully long, and chessandgo can probably profitably deviate somewhere, not to mention choosing a 15w I didn't list. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by arimaa_master on Oct 6th, 2007, 2:18pm Chessandgo already made a move: no one predicted this one I guess :) |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by arimaa_master on Oct 6th, 2007, 2:23pm I propose 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w - main purpose of this move is to pull another rabbit. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 6th, 2007, 3:33pm I sure didn't predict 15w Db3e Hc4w Hb4s ra4e. It has the threat to capture our rabbit next move, but leaves our camel mobile and chessandgo's elephant closer to the east. The threat to our rabbit isn't all that strong, so I wonder if chessandgo's move is actually stronger than 15w Db3e Hc4w Hb4s Ee5w. My first thought for a response was 15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n, but if chessandgo decides to play merry-go-round with his horse and dog, he will eventually force us to deviate to avoid repetition. My second thought was 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4n. I'm not very scared of our camel getting pushed to c4 with our elephant, horse and rabbit out in front. However, it depends on specific tactics as to whether ed4n is better or worse than arimaa_master's idea of ed4w. A very aggressive try is 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n, but this may expose our camel too much. We can take advantage of the fact that chessandgo didn't threaten our camel with 15b ed4w hg6e hh6w Rh5n. Can his elephant then really afford to go east? 15b mc5s mc4n Dc3n ha6s is also intriguiging. It seems to force chessandgo's elephant to come back west to avoid a very awkward dog hostage, and we haven't succumbed to repetition by moving our rabbit back to a4. Are there any other suggestions before I start posting a tree? |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by UruramTururam on Oct 6th, 2007, 5:55pm on 10/06/07 at 14:18:27, arimaa_master wrote:
But taking into account the time C&G used to make it we can assume he predicted our move... I opt for sacrificing tactics for strategy this turn making no immediate threats but just positioning the pieces in order. Thus my proposal: 15b ed4w rb4w ha6e dd8s . |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by mdk on Oct 6th, 2007, 11:11pm on 10/06/07 at 17:55:00, UruramTururam wrote:
I wouldn't be certain that he predicted our move. Up until this past the turn before this one chessandgo wasn't using much time at all to make his moves. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by mdk on Oct 7th, 2007, 12:11am on 10/06/07 at 14:23:12, arimaa_master wrote:
on 10/06/07 at 15:33:40, Fritzlein wrote:
I know Fritz says hes not scared of it but how do we respond to In all the lines I have been playing out I always end up with gold having an advantage. What am I missing? 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4n allows for the immediate capture of our rabbit. Did you mean ed4s? If so then I am somewhat worried about our camel being pushed to c4. Not so much because I think chessandgo will capture our camel but because I worried we lose tempo and maybe even our rabbit in order to prevent our camel from being taken hostage. So how would you actually respond to having our camel pushed to c4? |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by UruramTururam on Oct 7th, 2007, 2:33am on 10/06/07 at 23:11:36, mdk wrote:
Sure, we can't be certain. But in any game it's wise to assume that the opponent is smarter than us. ;) In fact Arimaa is a game designed to have enormous number of possible answers in any given situation. Chessandgo escaped from our position trees very quickly so far... By the way - what I've just realized - one of the outcomes of this very game could be: are the move trees really useful in Arimaa? Or perhaps some other methods of planning are better? We don't exactly know the method C&G uses to analyze the positions. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 7th, 2007, 9:37am on 10/07/07 at 00:11:02, mdk wrote:
You aren't missing anything. I meant ed4s not ed4n. :P |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 7th, 2007, 2:36pm on 10/07/07 at 02:33:20, UruramTururam wrote:
Move trees are certainly useful in Arimaa. Just on the last Mob move my gut instincts were in favor of the move we almost made. I even justified the move strategically, in what I thought were reasonably persuasive terms. But when I tried to play out some lines, it didn't work out the way I expected. My instincts and explanations were wrong. Where do instincts and explanations come from in the first place? From playing, of course! We wouldn't even know how to start thinking about a position without some experience from previous games. Playing games is how we develop our understanding. But then, how do we get experience about a specific position that isn't quite like any other position we have encountered before? By building an analysis tree! I admit that playing against myself, I can only come up with mediocre analysis. My trees often look like this: move . mistake . . mistake . . . accidental brilliancy . . . . whoa dude and of course the moves in that tree never get played. But in part that is because I get stuck in a single way of thinking about a position, and therefore I don't learn very much from the analysis. One can often learn more from five minutes of a different perspective than an hour of contemplation. So sharing the analysis tree and having it critiqued is an essential motivation for doing the analysis at all. As for chessandgo not making the moves we expect, that doesn't mean it wasn't useful for us to analyze and understand the position. We don't have to get perfect to get better. Furthermore, I think both 13w and 15w by chessandgo were mistakes, or at least inaccuracies, so I don't feel bad if we missed them both. Finally, I think we are winning so far, so however we are collectively "thinking", it seems to be working. Not to underestimate the World Champion, but I feel we as a team are doing better so far. Yay for us! |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 7th, 2007, 5:59pm After playing out some lines, I have a vague impression that we are winning, and a distinct impression that I have a lot to learn about Arimaa strategy. In many positions I couldn't decide what the relative objectives of each side are. Sometimes it seems that an EMHR attack on c3 is our best strategy, but when chessandgo's elephant returns to defend, I feel unable to evaluate the resulting position. I will be very curious to hear other opinions about my move selection and evaluation of the nodes. 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w . 16w Ee5w Ed5s mc5e Dc3e . . 16b dd8s dd7s md5w dd6w . . . 17w Hb3s rb4s rb3e Hb2n . . . . 17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rg7e (=+) . 16w Cc2w Dc3s Ee5e Ef5e . . 16b rb4w ec4w eb4e Hb3n . . . 17w Md2n Md3w Mc3w De2n . . . . 17b mc5w mb5n Hb4n ce7s . . . . . 18w Eg5w hg6s hg5s Ef5e . . . . . . 18b mb6n Hb5n Hb6e Hc6x mb7s . . . . . . . 19w hg4w Eg5s hf4s hf3x Eg4w . . . . . . . . 19b ec4w eb4e Mb3n ha3e (=+) . 16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s . . 16b ec4e Dc3n mc5w Dc4n . . . 17w Ef5s hg5w Ef4w hf5s . . . . 17b Dc5n Dc6x mb5e ed4s ed3e (-+) 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w mc5w Ed5w Dc4s . . 16b rb4w mb5n dd8s ed4w . . . 17w Hb3w ra4e Ha3n Dc3w . . . . 17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s (=+) . . 16b ed4w hg6e hh6w Rh5n . . . 17w Hb3w rb4s mb5s Ec5w (+=) 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s . 16w Cc2w Dc3s Md2s Ee5w . . 16b ed3n ed4w mc5w dd8s . . . 17w Md1n Ed5n Ed6s dd7s (?) . . . 17w Ed5w mb5w Ec5w Md1n . . . . 17b ha3n Ra2n ma5n ma6e (=+) . . 16b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd8s . . . 17w mc5s Ed5w mc4s Ec5s (?) . 16w Ee5w mc5s Ed5w Md2s . . 16b ed3n rb4w mc4w ed4w . . . 17w Ec5w Hb3s mb4s Eb5s . . . . 17b Dc3e mb3e ha3e dd8s (=+) . 16w Ee5w mc5s Ed5w Ra2e . . 16b ha3s ha2n Ra1n dd8s (=+) . 16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s . . 16b ed3e Md2n Md3n ee3w (-+) 15b ed4w rb4w ha6e dd8s . 16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e (=?) 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n . 16w Ee5w Ed5w Dc4s Ec5w . . 16b mb4e mc4n Dc3n ha6e . . . 17w mc5e Eb5e md5e Ec5e (=) 15b hg6e hh6w Rh5n ed4w . 16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s . . 16b ec4e Dc3n rg7s ce7s . . . 17w Ef5w Ee5w ce6s Rh6n (?) So far I am leaning towards arimaa_master's suggestion, but I could easily be convinced otherwise. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by jdb on Oct 7th, 2007, 7:24pm In general terms, Both sides have the same long term advantage, a dragged rabbit. If we make a passive move, the best we can expect to get is an equal position. Silver's path to advantage requires overloading the gold elephant by creating a double threat. Silver will eventually threaten a rabbit capture on f6, so that is one threat. We need to create another threat. I can see a couple ways to go about this, but there are likely more. One way is to try and capture something in the c6 trap. Another way is to try and take control of the c3 trap. Gold's previous move tried to prevent these two ideas. This position has alot of moves that look reasonable to me at first glance, so I suggest we take some time on this move. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 9th, 2007, 2:02pm on 10/07/07 at 19:24:10, jdb wrote:
Quite right. It is a tricky move with many possibilities. But I suggest we start voting now. I've posted my thoughts, and nobody disagrees, so waiting is pointless. We're just running down our clock by not voting immediately. Just kidding, of course. What I mean to say is that I miss the way mdk used to find holes in all my analysis and propose alternatives. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by UruramTururam on Oct 9th, 2007, 5:33pm on 10/06/07 at 15:33:40, Fritzlein wrote:
15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n ?! <-= The more I look at it the more I like it! Surely C&G may try to swap his horse and dog again and ad mortam defecatem as that's us who are to repeat the position. But what if he really plays: 16w Hb3e Dc3w Db4s ra4e ? Well all the analysis we've made here so far will still be valid, but with one small difference: there will be a gold dog on b3, and not a horse, making gold position slightly weaker. The question is then - if we play like that does he have any stronger answer? |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by mdk on Oct 9th, 2007, 9:24pm on 10/09/07 at 14:02:57, Fritzlein wrote:
I miss it too but real life (aka first half of senior year of high school + college applications + scholarships applications) has a way of taking away any free time I have. I'll try and find some time later tonight/early this morning but I wouldn't count on it. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by mdk on Oct 10th, 2007, 12:34am I finally found a bit of time so I'll try and throw something out there against the move that Fritz currently supports. (not because I necessarily think that another move is better–I really haven't looked at the position enough to decide–or because it is the move Fritz supports, but because but I figure some discussion on the move that prior to my comment would probably win can't hurt). 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w . 16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e How do we respond? |
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Title: Re: Move 15e Post by 99of9 on Oct 10th, 2007, 6:38am on 10/10/07 at 00:34:46, mdk wrote:
. . 16b rb4w ec4e md5w ed4n I think we end up looking quite good. I like having the threat on a new rabbit. So far I'm happy with this, but I haven't looked at the other alternatives yet. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by 99of9 on Oct 10th, 2007, 6:56am on 10/09/07 at 17:33:47, UruramTururam wrote:
I can't understand what you both mean by swapping horse and dog. And I really don't understand Urarum's move 16w... it looks illegal to me. Can you check it? Were you both talking about the move: 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n ??? |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 10th, 2007, 9:12am on 10/10/07 at 06:56:23, 99of9 wrote:
Yep, that's the move I was talking about. I thought it was pointless to examine, because 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n 16w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e 16b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n 17w Db3e Hc4w Hb4s ra4e 17b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n 18w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e 18b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n and Silver loses by repetition. So we have to deviate anyway, and why not now? But thanks to UruramTururam, I see that 16w is weak for chessandgo, because it makes arimaa_master's suggested move all the more powerful: 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n 16w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e 16b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w So "playing merry-go-round with the horse and dog" is not a good option for chessandgo. On the other other hand, I have come to think that 15w by chessandgo was an inaccuracy, and this 15b merely gives him a second chance to play what he should have played the first time: 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n 16w Hb3n Dc4s Hb4s Ee5w which would rule out our horse charge. So I needed to give 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n more thought than I had, but not much more. Also, perhaps we should take the typo 15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n seriously, but after 15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n 16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e it seems we have to waste too much time defending our camel. So I don't like the typo move much either |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 10th, 2007, 9:30am on 10/10/07 at 00:34:46, mdk wrote:
Very true. Quote:
I don't see anything better than 99of9's response, but 16b rb4w ec4e md5w ed4n does bring out the point that our exposed rabbit needs the a4 square for safety and our horse needs the a4 square to pull a rabbit through. Playing forward a bit, I find it tricky to ever get that a2 rabbit pulled or otherwise realize much advantage after 17w Ed6e Ee6s Ee5s Ee4w. So I'm going to flip-flop to 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s as my new favorite. It isn't obviously better strategically, but it seems to have the advantage of being more tactically forcing, due to the immediate threat to chessandgo's dog. See, I told you I could easily be convinced! |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by mdk on Oct 10th, 2007, 4:14pm on 10/10/07 at 09:30:46, Fritzlein wrote:
I'm glad to see some more discussion in the mob. I really wish I had more time to contribute. But with the time I have let me ask how do we continue after: 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 10th, 2007, 6:52pm on 10/10/07 at 16:14:44, mdk wrote:
If he is going to give us the b3 square, I'm very temped to take it: 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w Hb3e rb4s Ra2e . . 16b ha5s ha4e rb3w hb4s But if that doesn't work, I'll bet pushing our rabbit to a2 does work: 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w Hb3e rb4s Ra2e . . 16b ha5e hb5s rb3w ra3s From the latter line alone, I'm not scared of the proposed 16w, and I stand by 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s as my current favorite. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by mdk on Oct 10th, 2007, 9:27pm on 10/10/07 at 18:52:14, Fritzlein wrote:
You misread my proposed 16w 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e Second step Hb3w... you responded to Hb3e |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 10th, 2007, 11:10pm on 10/10/07 at 21:27:44, mdk wrote:
Ah, sorry. I should be more careful. I did wonder that you would propose a move so easily refuted. ;) Of course your actual proposal is strong. Anyway, in the following line 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e . . 16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s Do we not still clearly stand better? Gold has made progress in framing our rabbit, but in the process left his dog very exposed. I think we are happy to just trade rabbits if we have to, as long as we emerge with a dog hostage. I realize this is just a vague strategic answer, but I'm not sure what you had in mind as a plan for Gold after your proposed 16w. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by mdk on Oct 10th, 2007, 11:26pm on 10/10/07 at 23:10:49, Fritzlein wrote:
To be completely honest I wasn't completely sure what I had in mind either. but it seemed to look approach the position from a different perspective so I figured it was at least worth looking at. And no one else is suggesting possible refutations for gold so I figured I should suggest the best unmentioned response for gold I could find. Before we completely stop analyzing, here is my suggested line for gold: 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e . . 16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s . . . 17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Ha3e |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by jdb on Oct 11th, 2007, 5:48am How about trying to go after the c3 trap: 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n . 16w Ee5w Ed4w Dc4s Ec5w . . 16b Hb3s mb4s ra4s ed4s |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 11th, 2007, 11:54am Looking at jdb's suggestion, the a3 rabbit enables silver to swap out the camel for the horse to get the E-H. If gold tries for a camel hostage, I think silver can capture the eventual c2 dog. Somebody else should check this to see if gold can get a clean camel hostage. If this gets us an E-H, it seems the most threatening plan, beginning with the capture of the h5 rabbit. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by jdb on Oct 11th, 2007, 12:01pm I don't think gold can get a camel hostage, but there are alot of variations, and one little oversight could be critical. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 16th, 2007, 6:52pm on 10/10/07 at 23:26:55, mdk wrote:
On further examination of mdk's suggestion, my previous favorite move 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s doesn't look as good to me as I first thought. The threats to our rabbit and camel are just as strong as our threat to his dog, if not stronger. One trouble is that we may end up with our rabbit framed on c3 pinning our elephant on c4 instead of d3. When our elephant is pinned on the wrong square, and we try to win chessandgo's h5-rabbit, he can fork our rabbit between his two traps, and we only get a rabbit trade out of it. Still, 16b ha5e Dc4w mc5s ed4s seems to offer nice attacking possibilities in this line, so mdk's 16w is not (yet) a refutation in my book. on 10/11/07 at 05:48:36, jdb wrote:
After looking at JDB's suggested camel attack with 16b Hb3s mb4s ra4s ed4s, I think it leaves us clearly better, so much so that I feel chessandgo must deviate with 16w Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Ra2n. His rabbit advance is a strategic concession, but is also genuinely threatens a camel hostage, so we have to waste time retreating. In my main line we end up with a small but meaningful positional advantage, so I have promoted 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n into my top two. Arimaa_master's move 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w needed another look given my demotion of my top move, but I couldn't get more than a slight plus after mdk's suggested response. This drops it to third on my list, with two ways of pulling the dog in a virtual tie for first. In summary, I have to retract my criticism of chessandgo's 15w. The threat to our rabbit is significant, so it is hard to call it inaccurate that he pulled it. Please pardon any typos in the new analysis. I did it over a chess board, so cutting and pasting moves from the interface was not an option. 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e . . 16b ha5e Dc4w mc5s ed4s . . . 17w rb3e Ha3e Ed5w md2s . . . . 17b Db4w mc4w Hb3w mcb4s . . . . . 18w Ec5s Ec4w Md1n De2n . . . . . . 18b Ha3s mb3w Da4n ma3n . . . . . . . 19w Eb4s Eb3w Ea3e ma4s . . . . . . . . 19b hb5n hb6w ha6e Da5n (+=) . . . 17w Ed5n Ed6n cc7s cc6x Ed7w . . . . 17b ed3w ec3e Ccn2 Cc3x rb8s (=+) . . 16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s mc5w . . . 17w Ed5n Ed6n cc7s cc6x Ed7w . . . . 17b ec4s ec3n Ccn2 Cc3x rb8s . . . . . 18w rb3e Ha3e Rc1n Md2n (unclear) . . 16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s . . . 17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Ha3e (=) . . 16b ha5e Dc4w mc5s dd8s . . . 17w rb3e Ha3e Ed5w (+=) . 16w Ee5w mc5w Ed5w Dc4s . . 16b rb4w mb5n dd8s ed4w . . . 17w Hb3w ra4e Ha3n Dc3w . . . . 17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s (=+) . . 16b ed4w hg6e hh6w Rh5n . . . 17w Hb3w rb4s mb5s Ec5w (+=) 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n . 16w Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Ra2n . . 16b Dc4n ed4w ha6e dd8s . . . 17w Dc5e Dd5e De5s De4s . . . . 17b ec4e ed4s mb4e mc4e . . . . . 18w Eb5e Ec5e md4e Ed5s . . . . . . 18b De3e ed3e me4n me5n (+=) . 16w Ee5w Ed5w Dc4s Ec5w . . 16b Hb3s mb4s ra4s ed4s . . . 17w Eb5s Dc3n Cc2n Md2w . . . . 17b ha6e hb6s Hb3s mb4s . . . . . 18w Ea4w ra3n Ra2n rc1e . . . . . . 18b Dc3n ed3w Dc4n ec3n (=+) . . 16b mb4e mc4n Dc3n ha6e . . . 17w mc5e Eb5e md5e Ec5e (=) 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w . 16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e . . 16b mc5w mb5s ec5w ec5s . . . 17w Cc2n Md2w Mc2w Cc3s . . . . 17b Hb3e mb4s ra4e dd8s . . . . . 17w Ed4n Ed5w Ec5w De2n (unclear) . . . . 17b mb4n Hb3n mb5n Hb4n . . . . . 18w Mb2n Ed4n Ed5w Hc5s (+=) . . 16b rb4w ec4e md5w ed4n . . . 17w Ed6e Ee6s Ee5s Ee4w . . . . 17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd8s . . . . . 18w Cc2n Md2w Mc2w Cc3s (unclear) . . 16b ec4e md5w ed4w Dd3n . . . 17w Ed6s Ed5n mc5e Md3n . . . . 17b rb4w Dd4e ec4e md5w . . . . . 18w De2n Md3w Hb3s Mc3w (+=) . . . 17w Ed6s Dd4s Ed5n mc5e . . . . 17b ec4e md5w ed4w Dd3n . . . . . 18w Ed6s Dd4s Ed5n mc5e (-+) . 16w Ee5w Ed5s mc5e Dc3e . . 16b dd8s dd7s md5w dd6w . . . 17w Hb3s rb4s rb3e Hb2n . . . . 17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rg7e (=+) . 16w Cc2w Dc3s Ee5e Ef5e . . 16b rb4w ec4w eb4e Hb3n . . . 17w Md2n Md3w Mc3w De2n . . . . 17b mc5w mb5n Hb4n ce7s . . . . . 18w Eg5w hg6s hg5s Ef5e . . . . . . 18b mb6n Hb5n Hb6e Hc6x mb7s . . . . . . . 19w hg4w Eg5s hf4s hf3x Eg4w . . . . . . . . 19b ec4w eb4e Mb3n ha3e (=+) . 16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s . . 16b ec4e Dc3n mc5w Dc4n . . . 17w Ef5s hg5w Ef4w hf5s . . . . 17b Dc5n Dc6x mb5e ed4s ed3e (-+) 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n . 16w Hb3n Dc4s Hb4s Ee5w (=+) . 16w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e . . 16b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w (=+) . . 16b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n . . . 17w Db3e Hc4w Hb4s ra4e . . . . 17b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n . . . . . 18w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e . . . . . . 18b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n (+-) 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s . 16w Cc2w Dc3s Md2s Ee5w . . 16b ed3n ed4w mc5w dd8s . . . 17w Md1n Ed5n Ed6s dd7s (unclear) . . . 17w Ed5w mb5w Ec5w Md1n . . . . 17b ha3n Ra2n ma5n ma6e (=+) . . 16b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd8s . . . 17w mc5s Ed5w mc4s Ec5s (unclear) . 16w Ee5w mc5s Ed5w Md2s . . 16b ed3n rb4w mc4w ed4w . . . 17w Ec5w Hb3s mb4s Eb5s . . . . 17b Dc3e mb3e ha3e dd8s (=+) . 16w Ee5w mc5s Ed5w Ra2e . . 16b ha3s ha2n Ra1n dd8s (=+) . 16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s . . 16b ed3e Md2n Md3n ee3w (-+) 15b ed4w rb4w ha6e dd8s . 16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e (=) 15b hg6e hh6w Rh5n ed4w . 16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s . . 16b ec4e Dc3n rg7s ce7s . . . 17w Ef5w Ee5w ce6s Rh6n (unclear) 15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n . 16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e (=) |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by jdb on Oct 16th, 2007, 11:50pm Thanks for the tree Fritz. I think the position is about equal after 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w mc5n Ed5w Dc4s |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 17th, 2007, 12:15am on 10/16/07 at 23:50:46, jdb wrote:
My pleasure. Quote:
After 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s . 16w Ee5w mc5n Ed5w Dc4s . . 16b hg6e hh6w Ra5n ed4s How would you continue? My first impression is that the gold elephant can't cut off our camel from both c3 and f6. Actually our camel seems reasonably comfortable on c6. If we end up winning a rabbit in exchange for getting our rabbit framed, that's about as much advantage as I see for us in any line. But I haven't looked at it much. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by jdb on Oct 17th, 2007, 9:21am on 10/17/07 at 00:15:29, Fritzlein wrote:
Thats pretty much what I saw. In the other line after, 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n . 16w Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Ra2n . . 16b Dc4n ed4w ha6e dd8s . . . 17w Dc5e Dd5e De5s De4s . . . . 17b ec4n mb4e mc4e md4n I think silver's position is better. Also, the dd8s step on 16b might be used to go after the h5 rabbit instead. But after 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n . 16w Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Ra2n . . 16b Dc4n ed4w ha6e dd8s . . . 17w Dc5e Dd5s xxxx xxxx How does silver save the camel? :( 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n . 16w Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Ra2n . . 16b ha6e Dc4s mb4e ed4s I think the camel can get away, but I am not sure. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 17th, 2007, 11:28am The blackout delayed us, but it's time to wrap this up. Unless there are objections, we'll start the vote Thursday morning. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 17th, 2007, 5:34pm on 10/17/07 at 09:21:30, jdb wrote:
Wow, I didn't see how the dog on d4 blocks us. I agree that we would have to do something else for 16b. Quote:
I think this works, and we also have the more tense option of 16b ed4s Dc4e mb4e mc4n. I think that leaves us a positional advantage, but the position of our camel means we would want to check the line carefully before playing. I'm going to vote for 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s because it appears safer, but I think we could come out on top with 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n too. For a super-safe option I also have 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n as a top move, since chessandgo can't afford to repeat, and I don't think deviating necessarily benefits him. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 18th, 2007, 8:39am In the move 15 election it looks like there is an illegal move among the choices: mc5s ha6s mc4w Dc3n (h->a5, m pull D). Turning it into a legal move with mc4n makes it just like ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s (h->a5, e pull D). One possible remedy is leaving the illegal move in there and voting anyway. Since the serious options are all available, we can just discard mc5s ha6s mc4w Dc3n from the rankings wherever it ends up. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 18th, 2007, 9:06am Oops! I meant to say mc5s mc4n Dc3n ha6s. This move didn't get much discussion, but was one of Fritzlein's early strawmen. It's indeed just like the one pulling the dog with the e, so just ignore the illegal move. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 18th, 2007, 10:16am If the unplayble move wins, we're in trouble, because Weasley is a Gryffindor, so his sense of honor will compel him to submit the winning move over and over until we run out of time. It takes a hero to attempt the impossible... |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 19th, 2007, 3:15pm TheMob chooses ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s. Silver definitely has the more aggressive look. |
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Title: Re: Move 15 Post by Fritzlein on Oct 19th, 2007, 5:42pm For the record . . . . . . . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 1. ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s (h->a5, e pull D) . . - 6 6 7 8 7 7 9 6 2. mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n (r->a4, m pull D) . . 3 - 6 7 8 6 7 8 5 3. ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n (r->a4, e pull D) . . 3 2 - 7 8 8 9 8 5 4. ed4w ha6s ha5s ha4s (e->c4, h->a3) . . . 2 1 1 - 4 3 5 5 3 5. ed4s ha6s ha5s ha4s (e->d3, h->a3) . . . 1 0 1 1 - 4 4 5 3 6. ed4w rb4w ha6e dd8s (e->c4, r->a4, h->a5, d->d7) 2 3 2 3 3 - 4 5 2 7. ed4w hg6e hh6w Rh5n (e->c4, pull R) . . . 2 1 0 0 1 3 - 5 3 8. ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n (r->a4, e pull D, e->b4) . 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 1 9. mc5s ha6s mc4w Dc3n (h->a5, m pull D) . . 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 - Fortunately the illegal move and the typo move came in tied for last. By my intuitive tiebreak I note that one voter actually preferred the illegal move to one of the top seven choices, which can't be said of the typo move, so the typo move should actually be dead last, lower than the illegal move. This result was not as hair-raising as some, but 6-3 still shows a serious disagreement in style. Also the move I favored in my first tree ended up fourth, both on my ballot and overall, so clearly the long discussion period changed some minds and influenced the result. I like the way we are "thinking" as a group. |
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