Arimaa Forum (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi)
Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 19
(Message started by: Soter on Dec 12th, 2007, 10:57am)

Title: Move 19
Post by Soter on Dec 12th, 2007, 10:57am
I copied the tree for convenience


18b hc5w hb5w ha5s mc4w
.    19w Ed5w Ec5w mb4e Eb5s
.    .    19b mc4n hg6e hh6w Rh5n
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Eb4e
.    .    .    .    20b ha4n ha5e mc5e md5e (-+)
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Eb4n
.    .    .    .    20b dd7s cc7s mc5e md5e
.    .    .    .    .    21w Eb5e Ec5e me5s Ed5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    21b ed3e rc3x me4e Hf5n Hf6x mf4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    22w Ee5w Ed5e dd6s cc6x Rf1w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    22b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w dd5w Ee5w dc5n dc6x Ed5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23b mf5s mf4s mf3n Cf2n Cf3x (=+)
.    .    .    .    .    21w De2n Cf2n Cf3n Hf5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    21b cc6s me5e ce7s ce6s (-+)
.    19w Ed5s Ed4w mb5n Ec4w
.    .    19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rb8s  
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w De2n
.    .    .    .    20b rb7s mb5e mc5e md5e
.    .    .    .    .    21w Cf2n Cf3n Hf5e Eb4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    21b hg6w Rh6w hf6s Rg6w Rf6x (-+)
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Eb4e
.    .    .    .    20b ha4e Da3n Da4n hb4w (=+)
.    19w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Ed5w
.    .    19b mb4n ha4e Da3n mb5n (=+)
18b cc7s dd7w hc5w ce7w
.    19w Ed5w mc4e Ec5s Hb3n
.    .    19b md4n md5w hb5w mc5w
.    .    .    20w Da3e Hb4w Ec4w Ra1n (=+)
18b hc5w hg6e hh6w Rh5n
.    19w Ed5w mc4e Ec5s De2n
.    .    19b md4e me4n me5n rh8s
.    .    .    20w Ec4e Ed4e Ee4n Da3s
.    .    .    .    20b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n
.    .    .    .    .    21w Ee5w me6s me5s Ed5e (=)
.    .    19b hg6w Rh6w hf6s Rg6w Rf6x
.    .    .    20w md4e Ec4e Ed4n Ed5e (=)
18b hg6e hh6w Rh5n mc4w
.    19w Ed5s Ed4w mb4w Ec4w
.    .    19b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n
.    .    .    20w rc3n Hb3e rc4e Hc3n (=)
18b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
.    19w Ed5s hc5e hd5e Ed4n
.    .    19b mc4w mb4e Hb3n rc3w
.    .    .    20w Ed5w mc4s Ec5s Ra1n (+=)
.    .    19b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n
.    .    .    20w he5s Ed5e he4s Ee5s (+=)  

I have a hunch that Jean may react soon (given his depleted reserve). Let's hope he won't surprise us this time...



Title: Re: Move 19
Post by The_Jeh on Dec 12th, 2007, 1:37pm
Jean has indeed reacted soon.

19w Ed5w De2s Md2e Me2n

Does Jean think he can trade rabbits by threatening to pry around with his camel on the east side? This, another non-tree move, has come within 7 hours, which is a bit suspicious.

A move that I'm probably not going to support in the end, but that I will put out there for discussion, is to flip his horse. We could trade cats. Jean cannot take our dog immediately afterwards because when we capture his cat, it will expose a threat to his camel, not to mention a goal threat. Then, whichever way he tries to come back and defend the c3 trap, the horse we flipped will be in danger. I also think flipping the horse might soften the southwest corner such that Chessandgo gets tied up. There is probably an easy way for Chessandgo to defend this, but I just thought I'd put it out there.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 12th, 2007, 4:26pm
Thanks for quickly noticing and posting the move, John.  With luck we can again disucss on the weekend, vote early next week, and not lose any reserve.


on 12/12/07 at 13:37:44, The_Jeh wrote:
This, another non-tree move, has come within 7 hours, which is a bit suspicious.

I don't think the move is suspicious at all.  Chessandgo could have thought about the position for hours before moving.  Furthermore, his clock was quite low, and if he is going to be unavailable for the holidays, he may have felt pressured to build up his reserve.

As for avoiding the tree, we only listed three moves out of thousands.  Chessandgo clearly has a different strategic take on the game and has been fretting that his camel is too passive.  Like most moves, however, his camel activation is double-edged; in some long term lines it makes our attack on c3 more powerful because his camel is not defending.  In other lines his camel itself could be a liability.

In any event, the move is in keeping with all my games against chessandgo.  Just when I think I'm about to secure an advantage, he finds a way to complicate the position.  It is as if he knows that he can outplay me when the board gets messy, so no matter how much trouble he is in, he can just keep raising the stakes until I crack tactically.  My hope for this game is that there will be enough Mob members with enough time to analyze to withstand his tactical shenanigans, and make any strategic advantage we have hold up.

My first reaction is 19b Da3s ha4s mb4w Hb3n  (with no board in front of me, so for all I know it hangs a piece ;-))

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 12th, 2007, 5:31pm

on 12/12/07 at 13:37:44, The_Jeh wrote:
A  move that I'm probably not going to support in the end, but that I will put out there for discussion, is to flip his horse. We could trade cats.

OK, a little analysis makes both of our hunches look bad.  After flipping the horse, we are fine if he accepts the cat trade, but in trouble if he tries to take our camel hostage instead.  After the dog-push-horse-pull move, he can shut down our attack and his active camel is too dangerous.  Possibly chessandgo moved quickly because he found a move which secures a clear advantage no matter what we do.

This may be a move where a huge tree is called for.  Not only do we need more suggestions, we need more analysis of sharp lines.  Even the lines I am giving below can turn on a dime if the other player has a tactical resource I didn't spot.  This could get very sharp very soon, and move 19 may turn out to be critical enough to warrant dipping into reserve.

19b mb4e Hb3n Hb4n mc4w
.    20w Ec5s mb4s Ec4w Cc2e
.    .    20b Rb2w mb3s mb2e Rb1n
.    .    .    21w Hb5n Hb6n cc7s cc6x Hb7e
.    .    .    .    21b Cd2e mc2e rc3s md2s
.    .    .    .    .    22w Ce2w Da3e Eb4e ha4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    22b dd7s ra8s rb8s rb7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w Cf2w rc2n Cd2w Ce2w (+-)
.    20w Ec5s mb4s Ec4w De1w
.    .    20b ed3s rc3e Cc2n Cc3x ed2w
.    .    .    21w Me3e rd3e Mf3n re3e rf3x
.    .    .    .    21b dd7s ra8s ra7s ra6s
.    .    .    .    .    22w Rb2w mb3s Eb4s (+=)
.    20w Hb5n Hb6n cc7s cc6x Hb7e
.    .    20b rc3w ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x
.    .    .    21w Ra1n rb3e Da3e Rc1n
.    .    .    .    21b mb4n ha4e mb5n dd7s (=+)
19b Da3s ha4s mb4w Hb3n
.    20w Ec5s Hb4s De1n Me3e
.    .    20b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
.    .    .    21w Mf3n Mf4e Mg4n Hg3n (+=)

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by UruramTururam on Dec 12th, 2007, 5:31pm
Two responses come into my mind:

Quite normal: 19b  hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s

And quite crazy: 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 12th, 2007, 5:51pm

on 12/12/07 at 17:31:34, UruramTururam wrote:
Quite normal: 19b  hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s

I rejected this move superficially because I thought he could take our camel hostage, but after
19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
.    20w Ec5w Eb5w Ea5e ha4n
.    .    20b ra8s ra7s ha5s ra6s
We seem to be in reasonable shape, although the position remains unclear.  I will look for a more dangerous 20w.


Quote:
And quite crazy: 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s

Interesting!  There is some threat to try to capture a dog if he tries for the camel hostage, and chessandgo must avoid that.  In a brief look I can't find a refutation.

Thanks for giving us a couple of hopeful looking suggestions.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by jdb on Dec 12th, 2007, 8:54pm

on 12/12/07 at 17:31:34, UruramTururam wrote:
And quite crazy: 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s


I like this move.

Golds last move is aiming to attack the f6 trap. Silver has no easy way to defend that trap because of all the advanced pieces. This means Silver needs to do something active to maintain the advantage.

But to be fair, this move is very sharp and the smallest mistake could be very costly.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by arimaa_master on Dec 13th, 2007, 8:38am

on 12/12/07 at 17:31:27, Fritzlein wrote:
This may be a move where a huge tree is called for.  Not only do we need more suggestions, we need more analysis of sharp lines.  Even the lines I am giving below can turn on a dime if the other player has a tactical resource I didn't spot.  This could get very sharp very soon, and move 19 may turn out to be critical enough to warrant dipping into reserve.
[/font]


I think bomb could be useful here.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 13th, 2007, 12:36pm
I had been looking at ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s as an aggressive move, so I'm glad UT found it first and others are looking at it.  I don't see any really good responses.

Gold has to protect the cat.  Additionally, gold wants a camel hostage but not if the silver horse drags away the dog.  Also lurking is a goal threat.  The gold camel is temporarily precarious, but is in no immediate danger.  This limits the responses.

The best I can come up with is 20w De1n Me3e De2w Ec5w.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 13th, 2007, 3:51pm

on 12/13/07 at 12:36:35, RonWeasley wrote:
I had been looking at ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s as an aggressive move, so I'm glad UT found it first and others are looking at it.  I don't see any really good responses.

Actually, there is a response for chessandgo to save his cat, save his dog, and threaten to take our camel hostage, namely 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e.  My first thought was 20b Rb2w mb3s Rb1n mb2e, which is very unclear.  Do we have better for 20b?

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Soter on Dec 13th, 2007, 4:25pm

Quote:
Actually, there is a response for chessandgo to save his cat, save his dog, and threaten to take our camel hostage, namely 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e.  My first thought was 20b Rb2w mb3s Rb1n mb2e, which is very unclear.  Do we have better for 20b?


Maybe  

Rb2w mb3s rc3w mb2e

instead of

Rb2w mb3s Rb1n mb2e?

but this is a first glance idea.

P.S. I'm gonna post some bits of analysis soon


Title: Re: Move 19
Post by mistre on Dec 13th, 2007, 6:15pm
I am not an official member of the Mob, but I have been watching this game closely.  Mostly I have stayed out of the discussion because I have trouble reading the moves, but I think I have it figured out now.  

19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s is a move that I saw independent of this discussion and at first glance it looks pretty good.  I agree that this line could get super sharp and we will need to be careful that he can't get a Camel Hostage out of it.  But being super aggressive with the Camel is probably a wise thing to do with this many eyes looking at each move. This move also serves to put his Dog in a bit of trouble too.

 



Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Soter on Dec 13th, 2007, 6:36pm
Hello, Mistre!

If you've been following the game, why don't you jump on our bandwagon? Together we shall swarm chessandgo :)


Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Soter on Dec 13th, 2007, 6:37pm
I wouldn't like to leave the gold rabbit unmolested - and
I attempted to inspect hg6e hh6w Rh5n xxxx .
It all starts resembling the Gordian Knot ( sword is missing :/ )
I can't use my planning window at the moment, so please correct me - there may be mistakes.

1.

19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
20w Hg3e Hh3n Hh4n Rh6n
20b hg6e hh6w Rh7s rh8s
21w De1n Me3n Hh5w Hh4w(?!)

Does 20w look realistic? If yes, then maybe blocking the rabbit (rh8s replaces dd7s) is wiser?


2.

19b  hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w De1n
20b ed3n rc3x ed4e ee4e mb4n( the sharpest line I found - but highly improbable )

possible 21w-s:

21w Me3n De2n Me4n Hf5e
21w Me3n De2n Me4n Me5n (we're better I think)
21w Ec5e Ed5e Hf5e xxxx (flipping options in the west: compensation for lost rabbit? Don't think so.)

Maybe there exists a way to squeeze more than an equal trade ( at best ) out of such wild lines, but I don't see it.



Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 13th, 2007, 7:37pm

on 12/13/07 at 18:15:31, mistre wrote:
I am not an official member of the Mob, but I have been watching this game closely.  Mostly I have stayed out of the discussion because I have trouble reading the moves, but I think I have it figured out now.

Welcome to the Mob!  You are of course welcome to vote even if you don't participate in the discussion, but if you are going to discuss as well, you picked a perfect time to start doing so.  If the game continues to get sharp, smaller mistakes will have bigger consequences, and we need all the eyeballs we can get examining the position.

As for the notation, I also find it tricky to get a handle on, as you can see from my notational errors in many previous posts.  You'll get used to it as you try to express yourself more, and never mind any mistakes along the way.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 14th, 2007, 7:10am
After 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e, I was thinking 20b Ha3s mb3w rc3w dd7s.

The strategy is to give up the camel hostage while our horse drags his dog to c6.  Eventually, silver frees its elephant by putting d->c4 and h->d3.  I'd expect the rabbit to stay on c3.  Gold's counterplay might have to be a camel attack on c6 to save the dog and force a camel trade, which may result in an exchange of the gold dog for the silver rabbit.  I don't think gold has enough time to save the dog and counter at f6.

After 20b Rb2w mb3s Rb1n mb2e I think gold can smother the camel, reframe the rabbit, and free its own camel and elephant beginning with 21w Eb4e Da4e Db4s Ha3n.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 14th, 2007, 9:53am

on 12/13/07 at 18:15:31, mistre wrote:
I am not an official member of the Mob, but I have been watching this game closely.  Mostly I have stayed out of the discussion because I have trouble reading the moves, but I think I have it figured out now.


Just a reminder to mistre and others, you don't have to register as a mobster to comment on any of the moves.  Registering (see the About topic) simply gets you on the list to vote.  You don't have to vote if you're on the list, but you'll get the notices.  If you don't want to vote anymore, just send me a message and I'll take you off the list.

This is supposed to be fun and inclusive.  It's a mob!

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Soter on Dec 16th, 2007, 9:59am
What if after 19b ha4n da3n Hb3w mb4s chessandgo reacts with
20w Ec5w Da4e Db4e De1n
or
20w Ec5w Da4e Db4e Eb5s
?


Quote:
After 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e, I was thinking 20b Ha3s mb3w rc3w dd7s.


Looks like a good move to me. However, doesn't 21w Rb2e Ha2e rb3e Hb2n make it worse for us? Or should we expect camel ( or camel and horse ) development in the east ?

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 16th, 2007, 11:23am

on 12/13/07 at 08:38:10, arimaa_master wrote:
I think bomb could be useful here.

Yes, given the way I hang pieces in my live games, I definitely could use a helping hand from a computer.

I set Bomb loose on our current position.  At low ply Bomb just wants to run with the camel, but at 10 steps Bomb switches to 19b Me3n ed3e Me4n ee3n.  It seems to me that this camel push is easily refuted with 20w Ec5e Me5e Mf5e Mg5s, when we have inadequate compensation for our lost rabbit.

At 11 through 14 steps depth Bomb prefers 19b mb3e Me3n ed3e rc3e.  This is much more plausible, but I end up with Gold even or slightly ahead after a couple of lines.

19b mb4e Me3n ed3e rc3e
.    20w De1w Dd1n rd3n Dd2n
.    .    20b mc4w mb4n Me4n ee3n
.    .    .    21w Ec5e Me5e Mf5e Mg5s
.    .    20b mc4w Me4n ee3n dd7s
.    .    .    21w Hb3e Ec5s mb4s Ec4w
.    .    .    .    21b Me5e ee4n Mf5n Mf6x ee5e
.    .    .    .    .    22w Hc3n mb3e mc3x Eb4s Eb3n

If it turns out that our dog-pull-horse-push move retains some advantage for us, I will favor it over chasing Bomb's camel, but it is nice to have another option which is at least somewhat playable.

Then I let Bomb think all day about our contemplated move 19b, and at 16 steps depth it wanted to reply with 20w Ec5w Eb5s De1w Dd1n, which appears to leave the Gold dog in trouble.  The trouble is that Bomb thinks Gold is winning after giving up a dog capture to gain a camel hostage!  In some lines that might be true, but I think in this case we are at least equal, and our framed rabbit is the beginning of a swarm rather than a liability.  So Bomb is not much help from that position.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 16th, 2007, 12:29pm

on 12/13/07 at 16:25:18, Soter wrote:
Maybe  

Rb2w mb3s rc3w mb2e

Wow, I thought I could refute this, and played a bunch of line with Bomb's help to prove it.  However, Bomb was not much help, and after 45 minutes I saw with my own eyes a refutation to my refutation.  Even in a sharp position, I'm not sure how much Bomb helps, because it misses all the "quiet" moves.

In summary, I think we are fine after your suggestion, Soter.  I include the wasted analysis in my tree to express my shame:

19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s
.    20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e
.    .    20b Rb2w mb3s rc3w mb2e
.    .    .    21w rb3e Eb4s Cf2w Me3e
.    .    .    .    21b hb5s Cd2s mc2e rc3s
.    .    .    .    .    22w Eb3s rc2n Eb2e Ha3e
.    .    .    .    .    .    22b Ce2e md2e me2n De1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w Ec2e De2s Ed2e Rc1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23b me3n me4w md4w dd7s (=+)
.    .    .    21w rb3e Eb4s Cf2w De1w
.    .    .    .    21b Me3n ed3e hb5e hc5s
.    .    .    .    .    22w Eb3s Eb2n mc2w Rc1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    22b dd7s dd6s dd5s dd4s (-+)
.    .    .    .    21b Me3n ed3e rc3e hb5e
.    .    .    .    .    22w Eb3s Eb2n mc2w Rc1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    22b Me4n ee3n Me5n ee4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w rd3w rc3x Cd2n Ce2n Da4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23b Me6e Mf6x ee5n hc5s ee6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    24w Eb3e Ec3w hc4s hc3x Ha3n (+=)
.    .    .    .    .    .    22b hc5s Me4n ee3n dd7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w rd3e Cd2n re3e rf3x Ce2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23b Me5e ee4n Mf5n Mf6x ee5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    24w Eb3e Ec3w hc4s hc3x Da4e (+=)
.    .    .    .    .    .    22b hc5s hc4s Rc2s hc3s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w rd3n Cd2n Da4e Db4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23b hc2e Rc1n Rc2n hd2w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    24w rd4n Dc4e Rc3n Dd1w (+-)



Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 16th, 2007, 7:07pm

on 12/13/07 at 18:37:21, Soter wrote:
19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
20w Hg3e Hh3n Hh4n Rh6n
20b hg6e hh6w Rh7s rh8s
21w De1n Me3n Hh5w Hh4w(?!)

Does 20w look realistic? If yes, then maybe blocking the rabbit (rh8s replaces dd7s) is wiser?

I think your 20w is indeed realistic, and to be reckoned with.  However, if we haven't yet committed our camel to b3, the gold horse on g3 must still be cautious about becoming active.  I think your 21w could be refuted with 21b mb4e mc4e md4n md5e.  If Gold is going to advance his horse, he might want to use a step with his elephant to delay the silver camel crossing, although it is difficult to keep the silver camel entirely out of mischief.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 17th, 2007, 9:58am
We're discussing 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s versus 19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s.  Last call for comments.

Start the vote Tuesday morning.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Soter on Dec 17th, 2007, 10:59am
Ron and others, do you think that other moves from "directly threaten the gold rabbit" family ( apart from 19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s ) - namely, 19b hg6e hh6w Rh5s rh8s and 19b hg6e hh6w Rh5s rg7e should be included ?







Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 17th, 2007, 11:17am
Yes.  All of those options should be included.  Voters should be aware that even if the h5 rabbit pull moves are not your first choice, your relative ranking of them is important.  If they win, you may be the deciding vote as to which fourth step wins.

I'm expecting voters will rank all the rabbit pull moves consecutively, although they don't have to.  This has the effect of ranking them as a block and we can see how voters prefer the block to other candidates.  If you really don't have a preference among them, you can even rank them all equally, literally treating them as a block.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Soter on Dec 17th, 2007, 3:56pm
One more thing - provided that 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s emerges victorious from the election, do you consider replies like 20w Ec5w Da4e Db4e De1n and 20w Ec5w Da4e Db4e Eb5s plausible? If you do, are they dangerous ? I'd try to analyse it, but I'm in a hurry...

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by mdk on Dec 17th, 2007, 10:03pm

on 12/17/07 at 15:56:36, Soter wrote:
One more thing - provided that 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s emerges victorious from the election, do you consider replies like 20w Ec5w Da4e Db4e De1n and 20w Ec5w Da4e Db4e Eb5s plausible? If you do, are they dangerous ? I'd try to analyse it, but I'm in a hurry...


19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s
.    20w Ec5w Da4e Db4e Eb5s
.    .    20b ed3n Dc4n ed4w ha5e
or
.    .    20b ha5e cc7w cb7s hb5e
both seem like plausible responses although someone should probably double check because i haven't had that much time to look at them carefully

unfortunately my time is very limited and i can't check the other move right now

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 18th, 2007, 8:27am

on 12/14/07 at 07:10:29, RonWeasley wrote:
After 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e, I was thinking 20b Ha3s mb3w rc3w dd7s.

The strategy is to give up the camel hostage while our horse drags his dog to c6.  Eventually, silver frees its elephant by putting d->c4 and h->d3.  I'd expect the rabbit to stay on c3.  Gold's counterplay might have to be a camel attack on c6 to save the dog and force a camel trade, which may result in an exchange of the gold dog for the silver rabbit.  I don't think gold has enough time to save the dog and counter at f6.

Gold can also contest c6 with his horse, as in

19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s
20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e
20b Ha3s mb3w rc3w dd7s
21w rb3e Eb4s Rb2e Hg3n
21b hb5w ha5n Da4n dd6s
22w Hg4n Hg5w Hf5w He5n

In some lines we end up losing MR to get HD, which I think is a disadvantage to us.

This is not to say that 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s is refuted.  In the above line Soter's suggested 20b looks adequate.  I'm just pointing out for this line and ones similar we can't directly win the dog in exchange for the camel hostage, because chessandgo's other horse has time to defend; it is more complicated and unclear than that.

It looks like I won't have time to build a full tree before this vote.  It looks like the Mob will be thrown back on intuition for the coming vote, which isn't all bad.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 18th, 2007, 9:15am
I'm trying to start the vote, but the voting site is not working.  Looks like they're "improving" it.  I will keep trying.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 18th, 2007, 12:44pm
Thanks for getting the vote going despite the issues on the CIVS server.

I noticed that you have departed from policy of including every suggested move in the vote.  I have no problems with this, since I would give a lower rank to all the other moves I suggested and you omitted.  In fact, I prefer a less cluttered ballot to make voting seem less burdensome.  This procedure is sort of in keeping with previous discussions about allowing people to withdraw moves they suggested but no longer like, and/or only including suggestions on the ballot which are somebody's favorite.

Out of curiosity, though, will you be generally not including all suggestions, or was this time special because you sensed other suggestions wouldn't get any support?

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 18th, 2007, 4:00pm
I tried to include any move suggestion that had at least one supporter.  Suggestions that were rejected by their originators and not championed by anybody else looked like dead candidates to me.  This was the case with the horse flip, the dog and horse pull, and bomb's move.

In the future, clear statements about withdrawing a suggested move or emphasizing support for a set of moves are welcome from any mobster.  Even if you don't offer new analysis.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by UruramTururam on Dec 19th, 2007, 6:53am
I think that for the future moves all the proposals should be included in the voting just for the documentary purposes and further analyzes...

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 19th, 2007, 2:00pm
19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s was the big winner.  Of course, we had nine votes in the morning and it wasn't until around 2:30pm that we got our tenth vote.  TheMob has an ironic sense of humor and clearly doesn't like being pushed around.  Thank you to everyone who voted.

Title: Re: Move 19
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 19th, 2007, 2:08pm
For the record:

   .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .   1. 2. 3. 4.
1. ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s (pull D, push H).    -  8  8  8
2. hg6e hh6w Rh5n rg7e (pull R, hg7->h7)    1  -  6  7
3. hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s (pull R, rh8->h7)    2  3  -  6
4. hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s (pull R, d->d6) .    2  2  2  -


I'm surprised it was so lopsided.  Maybe the Mob is tired of dancing around and wants to see some blood.  Given the general agreement to attack, it is just as well we didn't spend too long on this move, so we will have some time in reserve for the complications that will arise from our attack.



Arimaa Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.