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        Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 20
        
(Message started by: Soter on Dec 19^th, 2007, 6:11pm)

Title: Move 20
Post by Soter on Dec 19^th, 2007, 6:11pm

Maybe one of these will materialize on the board :)

19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s
. 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e
. . 20b Rb2w mb3s rc3w mb2e
. . . 21w rb3e Eb4s Cf2w Me3e
. . . . 21b hb5s Cd2s mc2e rc3s
. . . . . 22w Eb3s rc2n Eb2e Ha3e
. . . . . . 22b Ce2e md2e me2n De1n
. . . . . . . 23w Ec2e De2s Ed2e Rc1n
. . . . . . . . 23b me3n me4w md4w dd7s (=+)
. . . 21w rb3e Eb4s Cf2w De1w
. . . . 21b Me3n ed3e hb5e hc5s
. . . . . 22w Eb3s Eb2n mc2w Rc1n
. . . . . . 22b dd7s dd6s dd5s dd4s (-+)
. . . . 21b Me3n ed3e rc3e hb5e
. . . . . 22w Eb3s Eb2n mc2w Rc1n
. . . . . . 22b Me4n ee3n Me5n ee4n
. . . . . . . 23w rd3w rc3x Cd2n Ce2n Da4e
. . . . . . . . 23b Me6e Mf6x ee5n hc5s ee6s
. . . . . . . . . 24w Eb3e Ec3w hc4s hc3x Ha3n (+=)
. . . . . . 22b hc5s Me4n ee3n dd7s
. . . . . . . 23w rd3e Cd2n re3e rf3x Ce2n
. . . . . . . . 23b Me5e ee4n Mf5n Mf6x ee5e
. . . . . . . . . 24w Eb3e Ec3w hc4s hc3x Da4e (+=)
. . . . . . 22b hc5s hc4s Rc2s hc3s
. . . . . . . 23w rd3n Cd2n Da4e Db4e
. . . . . . . . 23b hc2e Rc1n Rc2n hd2w
. . . . . . . . . 24w rd4n Dc4e Rc3n Dd1w (+-)

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by arimaa_master on Dec 20^th, 2007, 3:55am

I think we should consider this move:

20w Ec5w De1n Me3e De2w

coz it is doing three things:

1) threaten the camel hostage
2) defending c3 trap
3) further activating the camel

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 20^th, 2007, 7:35am

on 12/20/07 at 03:55:10, arimaa_master wrote:

I think we should consider this move:

20w Ec5w De1n Me3e De2w

How about 20b dd7s Dd2e ed3s rc3e?

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 20^th, 2007, 7:46am

Also keep in mind 20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s. This threatens to take a cat and chessandgo probably can't afford the cat trade. Yet for him to protect c3 again he has to push our rabbit away from the trap. In other words, we effectively un-frame our rabbit with that move. That doesn't mean it is good, just that it is a possibility to be reckoned with.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by arimaa_master on Dec 20^th, 2007, 7:55am

on 12/20/07 at 07:35:13, RonWeasley wrote:

How about 20b dd7s Dd2e ed3s rc3e?

Maybe immediate camel hostage by:

21w Eb5s Rb2w mb3s Eb4s

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 20^th, 2007, 12:20pm

on 12/20/07 at 07:55:25, arimaa_master wrote:

Maybe immediate camel hostage by:

21w Eb5s Rb2w mb3s Eb4s

To which we reply with the visually deceptive 21b De2s ed2e rd3s rd2s

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by The_Jeh on Dec 20^th, 2007, 6:00pm

Unfortunately, I'm on dial-up for a while and it is quite ridiculous trying to get any game windows to load. If someone could post a textual description of the board or a low-quality screenshot, I would be most obliged. Thank you in advance.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by camelback on Dec 20^th, 2007, 6:41pm

Here is the text view of the game



 +---------------+ 
-|r-r-r-----r-r-r|-8
-|----c-d-c-d-r--|-7
-|----x-----x-h--|-6
-|h---E---------R|-5
-|D--------------|-4
-|H-m-r-e-M-x-H--|-3
-|--R-C-----C----|-2
-|R-R-R---D-R-R-R|-1
 +---------------+ 
  a b c d e f g h

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 20^th, 2007, 10:32pm

Nice one, camelback. That is the most readable text board I've seen yet. You have inspired me to try to do one better:

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| r | r | r | | | r | r | r | 8
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | c | d | c | d | r | | 7
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | x | | | x | h | | 6
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| h | | E | | | | | R | 5
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| D | | | | | | | | 4
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| H | m | r | e | M | x | H | | 3
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | R | C | | | C | | | 2
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| R | R | R | | D | R | R | R | 1
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
a b c d e f g h

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Janzert on Dec 20^th, 2007, 10:49pm

Since we're looking at different textual boards, here's what I use with my bots:

20w
 +-----------------+
8| r r r . . r r r |
7| . . c d c d r . |
6| . . x . . x h . |
5| h . E . . . . R |
4| D . . . . . . . |
3| H m r e M x H . |
2| . R C . . C . . |
1| R R R . D R R R |
 +-----------------+
   a b c d e f g h

It's just the official long representation but with empty places replaced by .'s. Let's me easily have the bots parse it back in but is a lot easier, especially with mostly empty boards, to see where pieces are exactly.

Janzert

Title: [color=Yellow]C[/color]Re: Move 20
Post by The_Jeh on Dec 20^th, 2007, 11:26pm

Thank you, guys. However, you leave me no choice but to outdo you all:

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| r | r | r | | | r | r | r | 8
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | c | d | c | d | r | | 7
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | | x | | | x | h | | 6
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| h | | E | | | | | R | 5
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| D | | | | | | | | 4
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| H | m | r | e | M | x | H | | 3
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| | R | C | | | C | | | 2
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| R | R | R | | D | R | R | R | 1
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
a b c d e f g h

At least, this is okay without a white background. It's not really any different text-wise.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by camelback on Dec 21^st, 2007, 1:28am

WOW :o amazing.. You guys just stole the thunder, elaborate and perfect. I think with The_Jeh's board we don't even need animal representation ;)

I generated the board using a perl script. It was my first perl script ;D I had to replace the empty spaces with something to prevent forum messing up the board. '.'s are nice idea.
Of course janzert's board is generated from some script. But I can see Fritzlein and Jeh spent lots of time personalizing the board. Hat's off to you :)

Well, I'm going way offline "move 20", I shut up :-X

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by 99of9 on Dec 21^st, 2007, 2:32am

All very pretty

I feel compelled to point out however, that The_Jeh would probably prefer a correct board!

Fritz, you have the Eb5, and Ra2 Cb2 wrong. The_Jeh, somehow you corrected the elephant, but not the others.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by arimaa_master on Dec 21^st, 2007, 3:58am

on 12/20/07 at 12:20:09, RonWeasley wrote:

To which we reply with the visually deceptive 21b De2s ed2e rd3s rd2s

Doh! :)

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by The_Jeh on Dec 21^st, 2007, 8:01am

on 12/21/07 at 02:32:03, 99of9 wrote:

Thank you. I've corrected it. I or someone else can repost the board with the announcement of each new move for our convenience.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Dec 21^st, 2007, 8:19am

on 12/21/07 at 02:32:03, 99of9 wrote:

Fritz, you have the Eb5, and Ra2 Cb2 wrong.

Oopsies. Corrected, although no one will look at mine now that The Jeh's is up.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by mdk on Jan 1^st, 2008, 2:40pm

I happened to look at the board again today and was wondering how we respond to 20w Da43 Rb2w Ha3n Db4e

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 2^nd, 2008, 7:16am

on 01/01/08 at 14:40:01, mdk wrote:

I happened to look at the board again today and was wondering how we respond to 20w Da43 Rb2w Ha3n Db4e

20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s seems to set up a camel trade with silver getting something extra, maybe a D for a r.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Jan 3^rd, 2008, 2:21pm

Chessandgo played 20w Ec5w Ra1n De1n De2w.

We can't push his horse back any more. We can't pull his dog. We therefore can't get that kind of compensation for giving up our camel as a hostage.

My first thought is that we either have to get our camel out of there while we still have a chance to avoid giving it up hostage, or we have to push his camel and play for a camel trade.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by mdk on Jan 3^rd, 2008, 3:19pm

Ok so a few of ideas...

20b mc3n rc3w mb4e mc4e
20b mc3n rc3w mb4e mc4n
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e cc7w

hopefully other people have some ideas as well. i definitely think we will need to play out some lines to decide the best move

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Soter on Jan 3^rd, 2008, 3:32pm

[quote]My first thought is that we either have to get our camel out of there while we still have a chance to avoid giving it up hostage, or we have to push his camel and play for a camel trade.[/quote]

Good ideas - but don't forget that Silver cat is now in danger.
I'll try to help a bit later - some heavy blood-spilling looms on the horizon.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Jan 3^rd, 2008, 3:36pm

Also

20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e dd7s

and maybe

20b mb3n rb2n xxxx xxxx ??

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Janzert on Jan 3^rd, 2008, 3:45pm

on 01/03/08 at 15:36:06, Fritzlein wrote:

Also

20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s

I had just been looking at this and thought it looked fun. ;) So I'll be interested to see what others come with on it.

Janzert

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by The_Jeh on Jan 3^rd, 2008, 4:30pm

20b
 +-----------------+
8| r r r . . r r r |
7| . . c d c d r . |
6| . . x . . x h . |
5| h E . . . . . R |
4| D . . . . . . . |
3| H m r e M x H . |
2| R R C D . C . . |
1| . R R . . R R R |
 +-----------------+
   a b c d e f g h

This is just for my convenience. Next week I'll be back on high-speed.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by UruramTururam on Jan 3^rd, 2008, 5:56pm

The hostage threat is present but I think there's quite a chance to overcome it with swarming... For now I propose:

20b: dd7s hg6e hh6w Rh5n

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 4^th, 2008, 8:15am

Here's another swarming idea: 20b dd7s dd6s dd5s rg8s

This looks like it gives the silver e some freedom and makes work for the gold E. That puts the D pull back in play and might let silver win the camel capture race.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Jan 4^th, 2008, 3:21pm

on 01/03/08 at 15:19:45, mdk wrote:

20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e cc7w

After some analysis, pushing his camel looks poor for us. Chessandgo threatens to get a camel and a rabbit for a camel.

20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
21w Eb5s rd3w Dd2n Rg1n
21b Me4n ee3n Me5n ee4n
22w Eb4e mb3n rc3x mb4s Ec4w (+=)

Swarming buys us time, but not enough time to get the camel for something less

20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
21w Eb5s rd3w Dd2n Rg1n
21b dd6s dd5w dc5s rb8s
22w Eb4n mb3n Ha3e Ra2n
22b Me4n ee3n Me5n ee4n
23w Eb5e Ec5w dc4n rc3x Rh1n (+=)

This doesn't mean that swarming is out; it means that if we are going to swarm, we should do so first, and look for an opportunity to push the camel after our swarm has gotten well underway.

What is out in my book (until someone gives a more promising line) is an immediate camel push.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by jdb on Jan 4^th, 2008, 6:31pm

on 01/04/08 at 15:21:54, Fritzlein wrote:

Playing on a bit farther:

22b Me6e Mf6x ee5n ha5n Da4n
23w mb3e mc3x Eb4s Eb3n Eb4n
23b ha6n Da5n ha7e Da6n

The idea being to take the dog hostage after an exchange of camels.

If gold instead plays
21w rd3n Dd2n Eb5s Rg1n
Does this work?
21b Me4n ee3n rd4w xxxx

After looking some more,

20b Me3n ed3e rc3e rb8s
21w Eb5s rd3w Dd2n Rg1n
21b ha5n Da4n ha6e Da5n

And alot of pieces leave the board, but it looks like silver comes out ahead. But it is really complicated and I likely missed something.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Jan 4^th, 2008, 8:02pm

A bit of analysis increases my interest in 20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s. At the most basic level, it threatens to win a cat,. A more subtle feature of the move is that for chessandgo to retake b3, he can't push our rabbit back into c3. He would have to push our rabbit away from the c3 trap, and onto a better square for our rabbit. This raises the possibility that he would defend c3 with his elephant on c4, rather than retaking b3, which leaves our horse free to harrass his dog. A final subtle point is that if both his horse advance in the west, our rabbit can often take up an ideal spot on a3, allowing our camel the possibility to escape via the b-file and crash the party around f6.

But first the least subtle line. What if he takes our cat? It looks like we have more stuff to capture faster, so his only hope is a goal race which we win:

20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w Eb5n Eb6n cc7s cc6x Eb7e
21b mc3n Cc2n Cc3x mc4s mc3s
22w rb3e Ha3e Cf2w Rf1w
22b Dd2s mc2e rc3s dd7n
23w Ra2n Da4e Db4e Ra3n
23b ha5e hb5s Dc4e hb4e
24w Ra4n Ra5n Ra6n Rg1w
24b hc4w ed3w ec3n Hb3e Hc3x
25w Ec7w rc8s rc7s rc6x Eb7e
25b md2n ec4n dd8w hb4s (-+)

It's extremely sharp, and worth further examination, but let's say he can't afford to enter the bloodletting line, and tries to come home with his elephant.

20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w Eb5e Ec5s rb3n Ha3e
21b ha5e Da4n Da5n hb5w
22w rb4w Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
22b mc3w mb3n mb4n dd7s (=+)

That didn't work so well. If he comes home with his elephant, his dog is hung out to dry, so maybe he needs to activate his camel?

20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w Eb5e Ec5s Cf2w Me3n
21b ha5e Da4n Da5n hb5w
(but no, the camel gets in trouble for defending: 22w Me4n Me5w Md5w Mc5w 22b ed3n ed4n ed5w mc3e -+)
22w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n
22b rb3w mc3w dd7s ha5s
(now chessandgo's misplaced second rank rabbits prevent him from taking our camel hostage)
23w Me4n Me5w dd6e Md5n
23b mb3n mb4n Hb6n mb5n (-+)

So perhaps the answer for Gold is not in camel activation, but in defending c3 with small pieces to keep the gold elephant free.

20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w rb3n Ha3e Ra2n Cf2w
21b mc3n Cc2n mc4n Cc3n

This last line is unclear, but it might favor us if nothing of ours can be effectively threatened except our advanced rabbit (now no longer framed) while gold has several small pieces and rabbits that are targets for us.

So far I like the move 20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s pretty well for us.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 8^th, 2008, 7:18am

Looks like the WC has got our attention. Let's plan on voting Wednesday unless some more discussion pops up. Fritzlein's favored move looks good to me. I couldn't find any devistating counters to it and it looks safer than the alternatives.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Soter on Jan 8^th, 2008, 10:01am

Unfortunately, I can't liven up the discussion and provide new ideas - this week turned out to be hellishly busy to me. Fritz's move looks like a decent proposal, however there's a question: what do you think about UT's 20b: dd7s hg6e hh6w Rh5n?

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 8^th, 2008, 11:16am

on 01/08/08 at 10:01:49, Soter wrote:

This looks like it would lead to giving up a camel hostage. 21w: Eb5s ha5w Dd2w Me3w. I expect the a3 horse and a4 dog to go to the c6 area where the horse will dominate. A swarm attack on f6 will follow. So I don't favor this over 20b: mb3n rc3e mb4w mc4s.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by mistre on Jan 8^th, 2008, 1:11pm

on 01/04/08 at 20:02:07, Fritzlein wrote:

A bit of analysis increases my interest in 20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s.

I like this move too. It's the best of the options I tried.

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 10^th, 2008, 3:29pm

TheMob selects mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s by a convincing majority. We were very indecisive about the second place move, but do we really care?

Title: Re: Move 20
Post by Fritzlein on Jan 10^th, 2008, 7:59pm

on 01/08/08 at 07:18:46, RonWeasley wrote:

Looks like the WC has got our attention.

Yeah, being the event reporter for the World Championship is definitely going to keep me busy. Since it was a landslide, I was tempted not to record the voting here, but then I was too stuck in my ways to change my habits:

. . . . . . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8.
1. mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s (r->b3, m->c3) . . - 8 8 7 9 9 9 9
2. hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s (pull R, d->d6) . . 1 - 2 3 4 4 6 6
3. mb3n rc3w mb4e dd7s (r->b3, m->c4, d->d6). 1 3 - 2 4 4 5 6
4. dd7s dd6s dd5s rg8s (d->d4, r->g7) . . 1 2 3 - 3 4 5 5
5. mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4n (r->b3, m->c5) . . 0 1 1 2 - 3 4 4
6. mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4e (r->b3, m->d4) . . 0 1 1 1 2 - 3 3
7. Me3e ed3e rc3e dd7s (push M, r->d3, d->d6) 0 0 1 1 2 3 - 6
8. Me3e ed3e rc3e cc7w (push M, r->d3, c->b7) 0 0 0 1 2 3 0 -