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Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 36
(Message started by: RonWeasley on Jul 14th, 2008, 7:28am)

Title: Move 36
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 14th, 2008, 7:28am
chessandgo is using considerable time on this move.  Does this mean he doesn't know of a winning line at this point?  Or maybe he sees only complicated lines near the primary variations.  Anyway, this is better than getting a two hour response that guarantees us losing a horse.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 14th, 2008, 7:47am
Also it is clear chessandgo isn't taking a long time just because he is on vacation.  In the same time span that he has been pondering his Mob move, he responded in both of my postal games in under a day.  Of course, that may not be an indication that he is in trouble in the Mob game so much as an indication that he's crushing me positionally in our Postal Mixer games.  :'(

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by 99of9 on Jul 14th, 2008, 5:53pm
jdb predicted a long think from Jean. I agree that it's a good sign for us, but it also means his eventual move will be well thought through, so we must take care on our next play.


Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 16th, 2008, 7:27am
This morning chessandgo moved in all his postal games where it was his move (four or five games), but not in the Mob game.   Does he care more about winning the Mob game?  Is it less obvious what he should do?

I suspect part of the equation is that chessandgo knows he can easily build his reserve back up to maximum, so he feels more free to procrastinate.  His long think is probably at least partially due to the fact that it doesn't hurt him in future moves to burn his whole reserve now.  He can think for 27:23:59:59 and still have plenty of time next move.


Title: Re: Move 36
Post by mistre on Jul 20th, 2008, 6:56pm
Still no move - down to 7 days in reserve.  True, he could burn all his reserve and still have 7 days for the next move, but if we can continue with another unclear line he might have to rush more than he would like.

I'd expect a move in the next few days.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by 99of9 on Jul 20th, 2008, 7:38pm
Unwittingly chessandgo is allowing Fritz the time to finish his book and redirect the full force of his attention back into the Mob?

I know it's too early to start talking about the end of this game.  But, seeing some claims that Fritz is a long way ahead of the rest of the community, I hope that he will be the opponent in the next Mob game.  What do you think Karl?

Speaking of contributors, I wonder if Arimanator is interested in joining the mob?  I think your penchant for analyzing endgames might be valuable soon.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 20th, 2008, 8:16pm
My dominance will be called into question if I lose both of my Postal Mixer games to chessandgo. However, even if chessandgo proves again that he's the best postally, I'm open to being The One in a Mob game, if only for variety. When all of my Postal Mixer games are over and we have won this game (which may take months) I'll volunteer to be ganged up on.

Meanwhile chessandgo's delay on this move is a brilliant strategy. He has taken so long, I have totally forgotten how we intended to counter various possible moves of his, which look rather crushing now that I glance at the position again. If chessandgo ends up beating The Mob, I think he should be required to be The One again and give us a rematch.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 21st, 2008, 6:24am

on 07/20/08 at 20:16:04, Fritzlein wrote:
Meanwhile chessandgo's delay on this move is a brilliant strategy.  He has taken so long, I have totally forgotten how we intended to counter various possible moves of his, which look rather crushing now that I glance at the position again.

Chessandgo will run out of time eons before the game tree on page 2 of the move 35 thread forgets!


on 06/22/08 at 10:38:55, warren wrote:
Different moves for us (35b) are separated by =.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 23rd, 2008, 4:26pm
He has 4.5 days left on his clock, so he's sure to move no later than next Monday.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Gerenuk on Jul 26th, 2008, 4:39am
36w Rd2n Rd3e Rc2e Rd2n

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 26th, 2008, 7:58am

on 07/26/08 at 04:39:27, Gerenuk wrote:
36w Rd2n Rd3e Rc2e Rd2n

Thanks for the heads up, Gerenuk.  Now we can get to work.  (By the way, it seems like your picture is password protected, so every time I try to view your post I am asked for a password.)


on 07/21/08 at 06:24:08, warren wrote:
Chessandgo will run out of time eons before the game tree on page 2 of the move 35 thread forgets!

That's right, we still have the game tree.  The game tree doesn't forget.  And what the game tree says about chessandgo's actual move is...

<nothing>

Once again chessandgo plays a completely unanticipated move.  Oh, well, there is something to be said for approaching each new position with an open mind and no preconceptions!  :-)  Probably that means I will oscillate for about a week between supreme confidence that chessandgo will shortly have to resign, and utter despair because we are the ones on the brink of defeat.   :P

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Gerenuk on Jul 26th, 2008, 8:30am

on 07/26/08 at 07:58:08, Fritzlein wrote:
Thanks for the heads up, Gerenuk.  Now we can get to work.  (By the way, it seems like your picture is password protected, so every time I try to view your post I am asked for a password.)

Oh, I forgot that the server was reconfigured.


on 07/26/08 at 07:58:08, Fritzlein wrote:
That's right, we still have the game tree.  The game tree doesn't forget.  And what the game tree says about chessandgo's actual move is...
<nothing>
Once again chessandgo plays a completely unanticipated move.


I'm surprised chessandgo can surprise so much. Unfortunately I don't have time to practice Arimaa, so I do very stupid blunders occationally, but maybe I can contribute suggestions for chessandgo's counter moves as I haven't been surprised by his moves so much.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by UruramTururam on Jul 26th, 2008, 8:30am
Interesting position...

My first thought: ef2w ee2w Rd3w ed2n

I was also thinking about something like Cg3e dg2n ?? ?? but I have no idea what the ??s could be.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 26th, 2008, 10:16am
Here's my first pass at analysis.  Since we didn't anticipate chessandgo's particular move, I had to go back and remind myself what we were expecting from him strategically.

Option A: Chessandgo could have played to give up on capturing our horse, and instead grabbed our dog and defended f3 with his elephant.  That would have left us up CRR for D.  He didn't do this, so I infer he is still holding out for a material advantage.  

Option B: Chessandgo could have grabbed our dog as part of a capture race where he ends up getting our horse.  We couldn't stop him from winning our horse eventually, so the cricital part of our calculation on our last move was that we get goal if he starts capturing immediately and continues until he has the horse.  This was the idea we spent most of our time on.

Option C: Chessandgo could embrace the capture race, but play first to delay our capturing around f3 long enough to win him time to capture around c3 and still get his elephant home before we force goal in the east.  This is what he has chosen to do.

What I notice right off the bat is that the rabbit chessandgo put on d3 is in the way of his elephant for crossing west to east.  If he felt like initating captures starting next move, then the move he just made costs him time.  It doesn't make sense as a part of the racing plan, "I'll defend for one move, then start capturing."  Therefore I infer that he intends to defend the f3-trap on his next move as well.  Of course, before we race we still need to look at lines where he captures beginning next move, but it seems extremely likely that if we were OK on that race before, we will be in better shape now, because of his delay-causing rabbit on d3.

Therefore I looked first at continuing our race as planned, assuming that chessandgo must defend f3 on his next move as well.  The results greatly encouraged me.  It seems that if he tries to defend with just rabbits (not including his d4-dog), we are in fine shape.  If he does defend with his dog, he has more move options, but I can't make any of them work out for him.  In short, the strategy implied by chessandgo's move appears inadequate.  Therefore we are on the brink of victory.  :)

Some lines:
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
.    37w Re3n Re4e Rd3e Rc1n
.    .    37b dg3w df3e Rf4s rg4w
.    .    .    38w Dd4e De4w rf4w Rf3n
.    .    .    .    38b dg3w Re3s df3w de3w
.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    .    .    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    .    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n
.    .    .    38w Re3n Re4n Df5e Da3n
.    .    .    .    38b ef4s ef3s rg4w rf4w
.    37w Dd4e De4e Re3e Rd3n
.    .    37b Rd4s dc4e rd5e re5s
.    .    .    38w Rc1e Rd1n Rd3e Rd2n
.    .    .    .    38b rb5e rc5s Rd3s dd4s
.    .    .    38w Rc1n Eb3e Rd3e Ec3w
.    .    .    .    38b rb5e rc5s dd4s ce7s
.    .    .    .    .    39w Eb3e Ec3w rc4s Hf1w
.    .    .    .    .    .    39b ef2w ee2w He1n ce6s


I should mention also that if we end in a position where we are not able to make immediate captures, but neither is he, we should be in great shape merely by virtue of being a cat and a rabbit ahead already.

Now I need to go look at what mean things chessandgo did to me in our Postal Mixer games...

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by jdb on Jul 27th, 2008, 5:20am
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s

This looks like a logical move to look at. It puts the most pressure on Gold's position.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 27th, 2008, 7:18am
Last move we did analyze a 36w that's pretty similar to what he actually played:

36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n (jdb)
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (F)
.37w Dd4e De4e Hf1w Rg1n (99)
.37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e (F)
. 37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w
. .38w Hf1w Eb3n hb2n Rd2n
. . 38b ce7s rf7s rf6s rd5s
. . .39w hb3e hc3x Eb4s Rg1w Rd3e
. . . 39b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n ce6s


Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:06am

on 07/27/08 at 07:18:10, warren wrote:
Last move we did analyze a 36w that's pretty similar to what he actually played:

36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n (jdb)

That's true, and intuitively, jdb's suggestion was stronger than chessandgo's actual move. Jdb left rabbits on c2 and d2 instead of c1 and d3, so there was a threat for Gold to sweep across the third rank with his elephant. Chessandgo's version loses this threat in exchange for perhaps keeping our d5-rabbit out of d3 in some lines, and for perhaps defending c3 or f3 with his d3-rabbit in some lines.

Note that the one long line in the tree has 38w Hf1w Eb3n hb2n Rd2n, where Gold's fourth step could perhaps now be saved because his rabbit is already on d3. I don't know if that tempo could make a difference, though, without setting up the position again and re-analyzing.

Sorry to tease you about chessandgo sidestepping the entire analysis tree.  I know it was disheartening for me when I was maintaining the tree.  My point about forgetting analysis during chessandgo's long think was that it is important to remember the ideas and strategic themes from before, as opposed to specific moves, but I take your point that reviewing the analysis tree can help us remember those themes.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:21am

on 07/26/08 at 08:30:09, Gerenuk wrote:
but maybe I can contribute suggestions for chessandgo's counter moves as I haven't been surprised by his moves so much.

Suggestions are always welcome, as they help us broaden our understanding of the position.  It is worth noting however, that we are winning (or at least have a competitive position) despite having been surprised again and again.  I was trained from my days of playing chess to believe that "I didn't think of his reply," was synonymous with "My move was a mistake."  That equivalence seems not to be true for Arimaa, though.  This is one of the wonderful things about Arimaa.  The winner is not the person who never overlooks anything; it is possible to make consistently strong moves without seeing every possible response.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:26am

on 07/26/08 at 08:30:54, UruramTururam wrote:
My first thought: ef2w ee2w Rd3w ed2n

I'm afraid that if our elephant goes back to defend the c3-trap now, chessandgo will just re-hostage our dog with his horse, so we'll have to run back to the f3-trap, and then he'll re-threaten us in the c3-trap, etc.  It looks like every cycle of running back and forth, he gains time, until his position is so strong we have to lose material somewhere.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by arimaa_master on Jul 27th, 2008, 10:27am
My first thought about this position was:

36b Cg3e dg2n rb5s ce7s

(with idea to place the rabbit to c4 (thus in possible captures there will be rabbit and not dog in danger)).

but now I think that Fritzlein's:

36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s

is for sure better (for reasonings already given by Fritzlein and Others).


Anybody has any better idea? Because so far seems to me that 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s is our only viable option (and by voice vote we can force chessandgo into time pressure).

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by UruramTururam on Jul 27th, 2008, 12:41pm

on 07/27/08 at 05:20:18, jdb wrote:
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s

This looks like a logical move to look at. It puts the most pressure on Gold's position.


Yup. Currently I'm for it too.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 27th, 2008, 3:28pm
After
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (F)
I don't think we have to worry about him killing our dog
.37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e
because after
..37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w
our rabbits on d5 and f4 are strong goal threats and his position falls apart.

Update:
After
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
a better way for him to kill our dog is
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e
after which we seem to be slightly ahead, e.g.
37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e

Title: Game tree
Post by warren on Jul 27th, 2008, 4:03pm
As usual I'll augment this as we analyze.

36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (F)
.    37w Re3n Re4e Rd3e Rc1n
.    .    37b dg3w df3e Rf4s rg4w
.    .    .    38w Dd4e De4w rf4w Rf3n
.    .    .    .    38b dg3w Re3s df3w de3w
.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    .    .    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    .    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n
.    .    .    38w Re3n Re4n Df5e Da3n
.    .    .    .    38b ef4s ef3s rg4w rf4w
.    37w Dd4e De4e Re3e Rd3n
.    .    37b Rd4s dc4e rd5e re5s
.    .    .    38w Rc1e Rd1n Rd3e Rd2n
.    .    .    .    38b rb5e rc5s Rd3s dd4s
.    .    .    38w Rc1n Eb3e Rd3e Ec3w
.    .    .    .    38b rb5e rc5s dd4s ce7s
.    .    .    .    .    39w Eb3e Ec3w rc4s Hf1w
.    .    .    .    .    .    39b ef2w ee2w He1n ce6s
.   37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e (W)
.   .   37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w (W)
.   37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e (W)
.   .   37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
.   .   .   38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
.   .   .   .   38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
.   .   .   .   .   39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e
.   .   37b dg3w rg4s rg3s df3e (jdb)
.   .   .   38w Ec2e hb2e Rc1e Dd4w (W/bomb)
.   .   .   .   38b Hf1w ef2s rd5e re5e
.   .   .   .   .   39w He1n He2e Rd1e Rd3n
.   .   .   .   .   .   39b Re1w ef1w ee1n rf5s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   40w hc2n hc3x Ed2w Ec2e Rd4n
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   40b Re3n ee2n ee3s ce7s


36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s (jdb)
.   37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
.   .   37b dg3w Cf4n df3n rg4s
.   .   .   38w Ec2e hb2e hc2n hc3x Ed2w (w/bomb)
.   .   .   .   38b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n rb5e
.   .   .   .   .   39w Ec2e Dd4w Rd3n Ed2e
.   .   .   .   .   .   39b Cf5n Cf6x df4n ee3e ef3s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   40w Ee2n Da3e Dc4w rc5s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   40b ef2e eg2w Rg1n rh7s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   41w Rc1e Rd1e Hf1e Re1e
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   41b ef2w df5s rg3w rf3s
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   42w Rg2n Hg1n rf2n Hg2w
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   42b ee2w Hf2w ed2n rd5w
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   43w Ra2e Rb2e Rb1e He2e
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   43b ed3w Db3w ec3w rc8w
.   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   44w Ee3n Ee4s df4w rf3x Ee3w

36b Cg3e dg2n rf7s rf6s (W)

36b ef2w ee2w Rd3w ed2n (UT)

36b Cg3e dg2n rb5s ce7s  (AM)

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 27th, 2008, 4:43pm

on 07/27/08 at 10:27:07, arimaa_master wrote:
Anybody has any better idea? Because so far seems to me that 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s is our only viable option (and by voice vote we can force chessandgo into time pressure).

A minor variation on that 36b that's worth considering is:

36b Cg3e dg2n rf7s rf6s

The idea: if we push the f7 rabbit first, we can always push the g6 rabbit later, but once the g6 rabbit is pushed the f7 rabbit can't walk through the trap. The square g4 may look more threatening than f5, but a rabbit can move from either square to f4 in one step.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by 99of9 on Jul 27th, 2008, 8:00pm

on 07/27/08 at 10:27:07, arimaa_master wrote:
(and by voice vote we can force chessandgo into time pressure).

I strongly object to a quick move.  Chessandgo thought long and hard about his last move, therefore we should consider our reply very carefully.  He may well have left traps for us on the "obvious" roads.  Also, there's not much chance of putting him under real "time pressure", because for an individual player, 7 days is a long time to analyze if he feels the need to use it well.  And even if we spend time on our move, he's unlikely to analyze much during our move, unless he considers it forced (which is doubtful since we have surprised him like he has us).

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by mistre on Jul 28th, 2008, 6:12am

on 07/26/08 at 10:16:54, Fritzlein wrote:
It doesn't make sense as a part of the racing plan, "I'll defend for one move, then start capturing."  Therefore I infer that he intends to defend the f3-trap on his next move as well.  Of course, before we race we still need to look at lines where he captures beginning next move, but it seems extremely likely that if we were OK on that race before, we will be in better shape now, because of his delay-causing rabbit on d3.


What about the possibility that chessandgo defended f3 for one move by sacrificing a rabbit in order to take the dog and keep our horse hostage? Look at Warren's tree of moves here.

36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
a better way for him to kill our dog is
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e
after which we seem to be slightly ahead, e.g.
37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e

Unless warren and I are missing something and we have a better sequence of moves then shown above, I think chessandgo would be happy with trading his R for our D and continuing with this unclear line.  I think this line should be looked at more carefully before proceeding.



Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 10:40am
Ah, thanks warren. I didn't see that the rabbit on d3 gives chessandgo the option of a delayed defense of the f3-trap on 38w instead of 37w. However, I don't much like 37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w, putting our rabbit on f4, so that he can push it to f5, blocking us from pushing his dog to f5. We do not need our rabbit on f4 to glue his horse to f1 anyway, because he can't take our horse and save his at the same time. My hunch is that a different 37b gives us a clearer advantage, so a different 36b isn't necessary. But you are right mistre, we need to look at it more.  Maybe a different 36b is indeed called for.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 28th, 2008, 12:58pm

on 07/27/08 at 16:43:54, warren wrote:
A minor variation on that 36b that's worth considering is:

36b Cg3e dg2n rf7s rf6s

The idea: if we push the f7 rabbit first, we can always push the g6 rabbit later, but once the g6 rabbit is pushed the f7 rabbit can't walk through the trap. The square g4 may look more threatening than f5, but a rabbit can move from either square to f4 in one step.

The drawback of putting our rabbit on f5, though, is that we can't push his dog to f5 as in the line

36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by jdb on Jul 29th, 2008, 5:10am
36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s

37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
37b dg3w Cf4n df3n rg4s

There are lots of other defensive options but,

If the d4 dog leaves d4 and goes to hold back the rabbit, the c4 dog can go to d3.




Title: Re: Move 36
Post by jdb on Jul 29th, 2008, 5:14am

on 07/28/08 at 06:12:01, mistre wrote:
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
a better way for him to kill our dog is
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e
after which we seem to be slightly ahead, e.g.
37b dg3w df3e Re3e Rf3x rg4w
38w Rd3e Dd4e rf4n De4e
38b rb5e rc5s rd5s rd4s
39w Ec2n Ec3s rc4s Rc1e


37b dg3w rg4s rg3s df3e

And let the bots at it after that.



Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 29th, 2008, 7:07am

on 07/29/08 at 05:14:10, jdb wrote:
37b dg3w rg4s rg3s df3e

And let the bots at it after that.


Bomb thinks C&G captures our horse in that line with insufficient compensation:

36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e
37b dg3w rg4s rg3s df3e
38w Ec2e hb2e Rc1e Dd4w
38b Hf1w ef2s rd5e re5e
39w He1n He2e Rd1e Rd3n
39b Re1w ef1w ee1n rf5s
40w hc2n hc3x Ed2w Ec2e Rd4n
40b Re3n ee2n ee3s ce7s

Bomb's 40b is really nutty (horizon effect).

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 29th, 2008, 7:31am

on 07/29/08 at 05:10:57, jdb wrote:
36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s

37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
37b dg3w Cf4n df3n rg4s

There are lots of other defensive options but,

If the d4 dog leaves d4 and goes to hold back the rabbit, the c4 dog can go to d3.

Bomb thinks that line is losing for us:

36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
37b dg3w Cf4n df3n rg4s
38w Ec2e hb2e hc2n hc3x Ed2w
38b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n rb5e
39w Ec2e Dd4w Rd3n Ed2e
39b Cf5n Cf6x df4n ee3e ef3s
40w Ee2n Da3e Dc4w rc5s
40b ef2e eg2w Rg1n rh7s
41w Rc1e Rd1e Hf1e Re1e
41b ef2w df5s rg3w rf3s
42w Rg2n Hg1n rf2n Hg2w
42b ee2w Hf2w ed2n rd5w
43w Ra2e Rb2e Rb1e He2e
43b ed3w Db3w ec3w rc8w
44w Ee3n Ee4s df4w rf3x Ee3w

I haven't analyzed your 36b much, but I currently like the 36b that pushes the cat east  better.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 29th, 2008, 10:18am
Just so you know, I'm going on holiday beginning Saturday and returning a week from the following Monday.  I might see some quidditch in Beijing (I won't be going to the muggle games).  I will hand over moderatorship to a volunteer during that time.  Fritzlein did it last time.  Volunteers for this time?  Fritzlein again?

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 29th, 2008, 10:41am
Sorry, I'm giving priority to the continuous tournament.  Other volunteers?

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 30th, 2008, 7:43am

on 07/29/08 at 10:18:52, RonWeasley wrote:
Just so you know, I'm going on holiday beginning Saturday and returning a week from the following Monday.  I might see some quidditch in Beijing (I won't be going to the muggle games).  I will hand over moderatorship to a volunteer during that time.  Fritzlein did it last time.  Volunteers for this time?  Fritzlein again?

I will also be on vacation next week.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Jul 30th, 2008, 8:09pm

on 07/26/08 at 10:16:54, Fritzlein wrote:

36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    .    .    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    .    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n


If he replies with 39w Hf1n Hf2n dg3s Hf3e, are we really winning? We would be up materially rcd for H, but with our dog hostage I don't see us with a big advantage.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by 99of9 on Jul 30th, 2008, 8:57pm
I am happy to moderate if you send instructions.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 31st, 2008, 7:41am

on 07/30/08 at 20:09:03, warren wrote:
If he replies with 39w Hf1n Hf2n dg3s Hf3e, are we really winning? We would be up materially rcd for H, but with our dog hostage I don't see us with a big advantage.

Yes, I feel pretty good about our chances in this line.  The fight for control of f3 with our ED against his HCRR is likely to favor us, because we have the strongest local piece.  If chessandgo pushes too hard, he could end up giving a horse hostage rather than taking a dog hostage.  For example

39g Hf1n Hf2n dg3s Hf3e
39s rg4e ef4e eg4w Hg3n
40g rh4n Ch3n Hg4s xxxx
40s ef4e Hg3e eg4s dg2w

and our lead has increased.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 31st, 2008, 12:09pm

on 07/30/08 at 20:57:56, 99of9 wrote:
I am happy to moderate if you send instructions.


I have sent instructions to 99of9.  I will resume moderatorship on Aug. 11.  Thanx!

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by warren on Aug 1st, 2008, 7:40pm
I hereby support a voice vote for 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s .

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by 99of9 on Aug 2nd, 2008, 6:00am
You're right warren, we should get moving.  I've had a bit of a look at our position tonight, but didn't find anything spectacular.  So at the moment I'm also in favour of Fritz's move.

Do others want to put in a voice vote?  If so, speak now, otherwise I'll put up a vote in 36 hours (unless I hear objections), so put your candidates forward.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 2nd, 2008, 7:50am

on 07/27/08 at 15:28:16, warren wrote:
After
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
a better way for him to kill our dog is
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Da3e

I finally set this position up.  It's a very fine tactical point that if the gold elephant ends on c2 after capturing our dog, it watches the d-file, so the d3-rabbit and d4-dog can both defend the f3-trap on 38g.  This somewhat undercuts the advantage I was hoping we could get.  However, if we don't make the tactical inaccuracy of putting our rabbit on f4 on 37b, we still come out all right, for example:
37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x ce7s
38w Dd4e De4e Rd3e Rc1e
38b ef2n Df4n ef3n ra8s

We end up with CRR for H, a slight material advantage, and a very playable position.  We are not crushing chessandgo by any means, though, which opens the possibility that we may have better than 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s.

I'm content to take what appears to be small, sure advantage, or wait for further discussion if that's what people want.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by Soter on Aug 2nd, 2008, 9:23am
I'm currently in the middle of my holiday and I think I won't be able to deliver a lot of analysis to this thread. Delaying the decision by 36 hours looks like a sensible idea - maybe we are missing something better than our current favourite? What about Cg3e dg2n dc4n rg6s? Or Cg3n dg2n Cg4n dg3n?

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by jdb on Aug 2nd, 2008, 12:06pm

on 07/29/08 at 07:31:42, warren wrote:
Bomb thinks that line is losing for us:

36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
37b dg3w Cf4n df3n rg4s
38w Ec2e hb2e hc2n hc3x Ed2w
38b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n rb5e
39w Ec2e Dd4w Rd3n Ed2e
39b Cf5n Cf6x df4n ee3e ef3s
40w Ee2n Da3e Dc4w rc5s
40b ef2e eg2w Rg1n rh7s
41w Rc1e Rd1e Hf1e Re1e
41b ef2w df5s rg3w rf3s
42w Rg2n Hg1n rf2n Hg2w
42b ee2w Hf2w ed2n rd5w
43w Ra2e Rb2e Rb1e He2e
43b ed3w Db3w ec3w rc8w
44w Ee3n Ee4s df4w rf3x Ee3w

I haven't analyzed your 36b much, but I currently like the 36b that pushes the cat east better.


How about this instead:

36b Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s
37w Eb3e Ec3s dc4s dc3x Cf3n
37b rg4e rh4s Hf1w ef2s

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by 99of9 on Aug 3rd, 2008, 8:56pm
Since the posts are still flowing, I'll delay another 30 hours because it sounds like this is another important decision.  Keep talking!  We are likely to build our time back up if we get into a capture cascade.

[EDIT]
By the way, my current list for vote is:
Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (Fritz)
Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s (jdb)
Cg3e dg2n dc4n rg6s (Soter)
Cg3n dg2n Cg4n dg3n (Soter)

I removed those from UT, AM, and Warren because they have all suggested that they now favour another.

If I've missed your favourite from the list, let me know asap.

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by UruramTururam on Aug 5th, 2008, 7:04am
I suspect C&G delayed his latest move to catch most of the Mob on vacations.  ;)

Title: Re: Move 36
Post by 99of9 on Aug 6th, 2008, 5:54am

             1.      2.      3.      4.
1. Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (Fritz)               -      5      7      7
2. Cg3e dg2n dc4n rg6s (Soter)               1      -      4      4
3. Cg3w dg2n rg6s rg5s (jdb)               0      1      -      3
4. Cg3n dg2n Cg4n dg3n (Soter)               0      0      2      -



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