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Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 37
(Message started by: mistre on Aug 6th, 2008, 9:10am)

Title: Move 37
Post by mistre on Aug 6th, 2008, 9:10am
And chessandgo responds quickly with 37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n.  There will be no rest for the mob this move!

Surprisingly, we had that move in our tree already, so we are ahead of the game this time...

.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    .    .    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    .    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n
.    .    .    38w Re3n Re4n Df5e Da3n
.    .    .    .    38b ef4s ef3s rg4w rf4w


Title: Re: Move 37
Post by arimaa_master on Aug 6th, 2008, 10:27am
37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w seems playable for us too

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by UruramTururam on Aug 7th, 2008, 2:50am

on 08/06/08 at 10:27:21, arimaa_master wrote:
.    37w Dd4e De4e Rc1n Rd3n
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n


Or maybe
.    .    37b ef2n Df4n ef3n rd5e ?

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by jdb on Aug 7th, 2008, 7:00am
37b Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s

The dog can't be captured because of the d5 rabbit's discovered goal threat.
If gold moves the c3 rabbit north, silver can flip the e3 rabbit onto the trap. I am not sure if gold can maintain the horse hostage. Maybe there is still a way...

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by The_Jeh on Aug 7th, 2008, 11:20am

on 08/07/08 at 07:00:32, jdb wrote:
37b Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s

The dog can't be captured because of the d5 rabbit's discovered goal threat.
If gold moves the c3 rabbit north, silver can flip the e3 rabbit onto the trap. I am not sure if gold can maintain the horse hostage. Maybe there is still a way...


This move catches my attention. Some possible lines:

37s Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s
. 38g Rc2e Rc3n Eb3e Ec3s
. .  38s rb5s rb4s Ra2s Hb2w
. 38g Hf1w He1w Hd1n Rc3n
. . 38s ef2w Re3n ee2n dc3n

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by UruramTururam on Aug 7th, 2008, 1:53pm
37b Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s

Hmmm... This leaves a lot of freedom to the golden dog. It may attack and disrupt our rear lines.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by jdb on Aug 8th, 2008, 5:17am

on 08/07/08 at 11:20:09, The_Jeh wrote:
This move catches my attention. Some possible lines:

37s Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s
.       38g Rc2e Rc3n Eb3e Ec3s
. . 38s rb5s rb4s Ra2s Hb2w
. 38g Hf1w He1w Hd1n Rc3n
. . 38s ef2w Re3n ee2n dc3n


37s Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s
38g Rc2e Rc3n Eb3e Ec3s
38s Re3n dd3e rd5s rd4s

The threat is
39s ef2n ef3s Df4s Df3x rg4w

So it looks like on 38g, gold needs to dislodge the dog from d3.
38g Rc3n Eb3e dd3s Ec3e
but this looks pretty rough for gold.

Title: Tree
Post by warren on Aug 10th, 2008, 6:45pm
Tree so far:
37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n (F on move 36)
.    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n
.    38w Re3n Re4n Df5e Da3n
.    .    38b ef4s ef3s rg4w rf4w  

37b Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s (jdb)
.    38g Rc2e Rc3n Eb3e Ec3s (jeh)
.    .    38s rb5s rb4s Ra2s Hb2w
.    .    38s Re3n dd3e rd5s rd4s (jdb)
.    .    .    38g Rc3n Eb3e dd3s Ec3e
.    38g Hf1w He1w Hd1n Rc3n (jeh)
.    .    38s ef2w Re3n ee2n dc3n

37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w (AM)
.    38w Hf1w He1w Hd1n Ch3w (W)
.    .    38b ef2w dc4s dc3n Rc2n
.    .    .    39w Cg3w rg4s Cf3w rg3w rf3x
.    .    .    .    39b ce7s ce6s ce5n Re4n
.    .    .    .    .    40w Da3n Da4e rb5w Db4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    40b Hd2s ee2w cc7e cd7s
.    38w Ch3w Eb3e dc4n Ec3n (W)
.    .    38b Rc2n hb2e hc2w hb2n
.    .    .    39w Hf1w He1w Hd1n Hd2w
.    .    .    .    39b ef2w ee2w ed2e Hc2e
.    .    .    .    .    40w Ra2e Rb2e dd3e Hd2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    40b Re4n de3n ee2n hb3n

37b ef2n Df4n ef3n rd5e (UT)

37b ef2n Df4n ef3n rb5e (RW)

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by 99of9 on Aug 11th, 2008, 1:55am

on 07/31/08 at 12:09:00, RonWeasley wrote:
I will resume moderatorship on Aug. 11.

After my unspectacular stint as moderator, welcome back.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 11th, 2008, 5:42am
I'm back!  Thanx, 99of9.

I looked at 37b ef2n Df4n ef3n rb5e.

The last rabbit move allows 38b rc5s to delay the horse capture after the dog exchange.  That lets silver take control of f3 and try to push a rabbit through.  Playable?  Not sure.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by warren on Aug 11th, 2008, 6:21am

on 08/06/08 at 10:27:21, arimaa_master wrote:
37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w seems playable for us too


I like AM's suggestion of 37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w a lot. It leaves us with only a rabbit threatened at the f3 trap, so we could abandon the f3 trap, lose the g4 rabbit and still be up a cat. The horse hostage is still annoying, but without the f3 trap at issue the hostage seems manageable. Pushing his c2 rabbit to c3 is a nice tactic in many resulting lines.

Some possible lines:
37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w (AM)
.    38w Hf1w He1w Hd1n Ch3w (W)
.    .    38b ef2w dc4s dc3n Rc2n
.    .    .    39w Cg3w rg4s Cf3w rg3w rf3x
.    .    .    .    39b ce7s ce6s ce5n Re4n
.    .    .    .    .    40w Da3n Da4e rb5w Db4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    40b Hd2s ee2w cc7e cd7s
.    38w Ch3w Eb3e dc4n Ec3n (W)
.    .    38b Rc2n hb2e hc2w hb2n
.    .    .    39w Hf1w He1w Hd1n Hd2w
.    .    .    .    39b ef2w ee2w ed2e Hc2e
.    .    .    .    .    40w Ra2e Rb2e dd3e Hd2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    40b Re4n de3n ee2n hb3n

My second favorite move is currently 37b Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s (jdb).

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by jdb on Aug 11th, 2008, 2:47pm
I did some looking at the following two moves.

37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w

This move's goal seems to be to send the game into a less tactical position. Silver has no immediate threat to goal due to the distribution of its pieces. However silver only stand to lose a rabbit. So if there is a quiet plan that leads to a win, then this is a good choice. On the down side, I couldn't find a decent plan. Hopefully someone else can?

37b Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s

This move steers the game into a very sharp position. Silver has goal threats because there are multiple heavy pieces near both enemy traps. However, silver also stands to lose alot of material if the goal attack does not work out. Gold is under alot of pressure and one false step could be decisive.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by warren on Aug 11th, 2008, 3:57pm

on 08/07/08 at 11:20:09, The_Jeh wrote:
This move catches my attention. Some possible lines:

37s Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s
.       38g Rc2e Rc3n Eb3e Ec3s
.       .        38s rb5s rb4s Ra2s Hb2w
.       38g Hf1w He1w Hd1n Rc3n
.       .        38s ef2w Re3n ee2n dc3n

The "dc3n" in the second 38s is not a legal move. Do you mean "dd3n"?

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 11th, 2008, 5:13pm

on 08/11/08 at 14:47:27, jdb wrote:
37b Rd4s dc4e Rd3w dd4s

This move steers the game into a very sharp position. Silver has goal threats because there are multiple heavy pieces near both enemy traps. However, silver also stands to lose alot of material if the goal attack does not work out. Gold is under alot of pressure and one false step could be decisive.

What about the response of 38g Da3n Da4e Db4e Dc4e?  That seems to stop our goal threat in its tracks, and we're going to eventually lose the trap control fight around c3, right?  So it seems we then have to continue with 38s ef2n Df4n ef3n dd3s, which is similar to going after his eastern dog in the first place, except with a loss of time for us.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 11th, 2008, 6:02pm

on 08/11/08 at 06:21:16, warren wrote:
I like AM's suggestion of 37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w a lot. It leaves us with only a rabbit threatened at the f3 trap, so we could abandon the f3 trap, lose the g4 rabbit and still be up a cat. The horse hostage is still annoying, but without the f3 trap at issue the hostage seems manageable. Pushing his c2 rabbit to c3 is a nice tactic in many resulting lines.

This is a very interesting move.  The resulting position is very strategic.  Gold has essentially no hope of regaining control of the c3 trap with just his ED against our HDD.  On the other hand, what can our elephant do around f3 without the dog?  Instead of having a trade and a fluid position, as after my suggested move, we have a huge mosh which is difficult to evaluate.

I'm a little afraid because if his horse goes east and our elephant follows, then not only do we lose a rabbit in c3, we concede that his dog is the strongest piece in the east.  What threat to we have to stop him from eventually generating an unstoppable goal threat in the east?  Our own goal threat in the center?


Quote:
37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w (AM)
. 38w Hf1w He1w Hd1n Ch3w (W)
. . 38b ef2w dc4s dc3n Rc2n
. . . 39w Cg3w rg4s Cf3w rg3w rf3x
. . . . 39b ce7s ce6s ce5n Re4n
. . . . . 40w Da3n Da4e rb5w Db4n
. . . . . . 40b Hd2s ee2w cc7e cd7s


That's a nice line, with an excellent 38s, but it seems it rely on Gold to walk right into total paralysis with 38g.  Some other options would include
38g Hf1w Ch3w Da3n Da4e
38g Hf1w Rg1n Rh1n Rg2n
38g Hf1w Hf2w Ch3w Rh1n

I'm not dissing the move by any means.  There is a lot to be said for breaking off a capture race that we were going to lose, and also for neutralizing his elephant on the edge of the board.  But the position is very unclear to me, unlike the position after

37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n,

which I can comfortably say is somewhat in our favor.

I wish I had more time for analysis tonight, because arimaa_master's move definitely deserves a deeper look.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by arimaa_master on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:17am
37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n (F) - this is so far my favorite move (just because this is quite transparent move).

I like my suggestion and others too but these are far too complicated for me to judge them at least approximately correctly (at least now with given variations and explanations).

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by mistre on Aug 12th, 2008, 8:45am
Of all the moves proposed, I still prefer 37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n as well.  It appears to be the least risky and potentially the strongest move anyways.


Title: Re: Move 37
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 12th, 2008, 12:38pm
Seems like we could voice vote this one.  Speak up of you object.  I think if anybody requests a Condorcet vote we should do that.

37s ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n

So far in favor are:
mistre
A_M
RonWeasley
99of9
warren
The_Jeh
U_T
Soter

I will edit this list as others post agreement.  If we get 8, I will make the move.  Currently we have 8.

[Edit}Because Fritzlein wanted to waffle a bit, I will wait a few hours for him to dissent.  Given that he doesn't I will make the move without further warning.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:17pm
Hmmm, move me to undecided at present.  I know our reserve has dwindled over the past several moves, and I don't want to stand in the way of moving soon if everyone else agrees, but I just haven't looked at it enough this week to have a good opinion yet.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by warren on Aug 12th, 2008, 5:23pm

on 08/12/08 at 13:17:58, Fritzlein wrote:
Hmmm, move me to undecided at present.  I know our reserve has dwindled over the past several moves, and I don't want to stand in the way of moving soon if everyone else agrees, but I just haven't looked at it enough this week to have a good opinion yet.

I am also not ready to vote yet.

After
37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n
.    .    .    39w Hf1n Hf2n dg3s Hf3e (W)
the position looks pretty even to me: he has an extra horse, we have extra dcr, and not much is happening. What's our plan for victory?

On the other hand, after 37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w (AM), we seem to be up a cat. Can someone give an example of a line starting with AM's 37b where we do badly?


Title: Re: Move 37
Post by warren on Aug 12th, 2008, 6:37pm

on 08/12/08 at 17:23:38, warren wrote:
I am also not ready to vote yet.

After
37b ef2n Df4n ef3n dc4n
.    38w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
.    .    38b Df5n Df6x ef4n ef5s dc5n
.    .    .    39w Hf1n Hf2n dg3s Hf3e (W)
the position looks pretty even to me: he has an extra horse, we have extra dcr, and not much is happening. What's our plan for victory?

On the other hand, after 37b dg3w Re3n df3w de3w (AM), we seem to be up a cat. Can someone give an example of a line starting with AM's 37b where we do badly?

Looking at some more lines, I think I can answer my own question about what the risk is with AM's 37b. While that moves leaves us up a cat materially, the horse hostage continues to haunt us. If gold attacks in the east with rabbits and dog, I can only make it work for us if our elephant guards the c3 trap while our dogs go north to counter gold's attack. If too many of his pieces go on the attack our rabbits can threaten goal too, so it's unclear whether or not his attack would succeed. But as others have said, it's an unclear position.

I therefore currently support the voice vote for Fritz's move.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by 99of9 on Aug 13th, 2008, 5:48am
I vote for Fritz's move, mainly because I haven't seen anything else better :-).

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by UruramTururam on Aug 13th, 2008, 6:47am
OK, let's make that move and gain some time.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by The_Jeh on Aug 13th, 2008, 8:52am
That's acceptable with me. I would find it interesting to see us play with this material difference should it transpire.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by Soter on Aug 13th, 2008, 11:49am
I'd go with Fritzlein's proposal too.

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 13th, 2008, 3:24pm

on 08/12/08 at 12:38:29, RonWeasley wrote:
I will edit this list as others post agreement. If we get 8, I will make the move. Currently we have 8.

[Edit}Because Fritzlein wanted to waffle a bit, I will wait a few hours for him to dissent. Given that he doesn't I will make the move without further warning.

Don't slow the team down just because I can't make up my mind.  :-)  I just tried to have too many recreations at the same time recently...

Title: Re: Move 37
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 13th, 2008, 5:20pm

on 08/13/08 at 15:24:53, Fritzlein wrote:
Don't slow the team down just because I can't make up my mind. :-) I just tried to have too many recreations at the same time recently...


In that case, the move is agreed.



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