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Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 39
(Message started by: Janzert on Sep 2nd, 2008, 12:48am)

Title: Move 39
Post by Janzert on Sep 2nd, 2008, 12:48am
Chessandgo responds in 1 hour, 13 minutes.

39g Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x

Previous tree from this position:
39s dc5n ef4e Hg3w eg4s
   40g Ec4n rb5s Ec5w Da3e
   .    40s dg2w Hf3n eg3w dc6w -+
   40g Ec4n rb5s Ec5w Hf3s
   .    40s dg2e eg3s Hf2n eg2w =+

Janzert

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 2nd, 2008, 5:01am
I looked at 39s dc4n ef4w ef4e Re4n.

This weakens the f3 trap for gold more than pushing the horse onto it.  In the long term both moves may be of similar strength, but a rabbit pull is permanent.

Title: Re: Move 39d
Post by mistre on Sep 2nd, 2008, 9:09am
Is it possible to give up our Dog to set up a position where we take his Horse without further losses?

I am thinking:

39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e
40g Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
40s Hg4n ef4e ce7s ce6s

At this point there is enough traffic in the center of the board to prevent chessandgo from getting his E over to defend the f6 trap. He could use two Rabbits to block the immediate capture, but we can take 1 and still have a lock on the f6 trap.

Either this is a very strong move or I am missing an obvious countermove.

Edit: He could give up the H for our D and bring his E over to take our remaining dog hostage. So is H for D with a D hostage worth it for us?

Edit2: I don't know how I got the s and g mixed up, but I did. :P It's fixed now.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 2nd, 2008, 9:21am
Also 39g ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n deserves examination.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 2nd, 2008, 9:28am

on 09/02/08 at 05:01:25, RonWeasley wrote:
I looked at 39s dc4n ef4w ef4e Re4n.

Also variants without dc4n are possible because the threat to his horse spares our dog temporarily.  Not that I see a more useful step, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 2nd, 2008, 2:23pm

on 09/02/08 at 05:01:25, RonWeasley wrote:
I looked at 39s dc4n ef4w ef4e Re4n.

This weakens the f3 trap for gold more than pushing the horse onto it. In the long term both moves may be of similar strength, but a rabbit pull is permanent.

The response to beat may be 40g rh4w Ch3n Ec4s Ec3e. It would be a shame if failing to free our dog hostage now meant that we lost the opportunity. But there may be tactics I'm not seeing.

Title: Tree
Post by warren on Sep 2nd, 2008, 5:29pm
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e (mistre)
  40g Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
  .   40s Hg4n ef4e ce7s ce6s
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n (F)

39s dc5n ef4e Hg3w eg4s (F from prev move)
  40g Ec4n rb5s Ec5w Da3e
  .   40s dg2w Hf3n eg3w dc6w -+
  40g Ec4n rb5s Ec5w Hf3s
  .   40s dg2e eg3s Hf2n eg2w =+

39s dc4n ef4w ef4e Re4n (RW)
  40g rh4w Ch3n Ec4s Ec3e (F)
39s ???? ef4w ef4e Re4n (F)

Title: Re: Move 39d
Post by warren on Sep 2nd, 2008, 6:36pm

on 09/02/08 at 09:09:27, mistre wrote:
Is it possible to give up our Dog to set up a position where we take his Horse without further losses?

I am thinking:

39g ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e
      40s Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
            40g Hg4n ef4e ce7s ce6s

At this point there is enough traffic in the center of the board to prevent chessandgo from getting his E over to defend the f6 trap.  He could use two Rabbits to block the immediate capture, but we can take 1 and still have a lock on the f6 trap.  

Either this is a very strong move or I am missing an obvious countermove.

Edit:  He could give up the H for our D and bring his E over to take our remaining dog hostage. So is H for D with a D hostage worth it for us?


I like your 39s but with a different 40s:
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e (mistre)
  40g Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
  .   40s Hg4n ef4e eg4w ef4n (W)

That leaves our elephant in a better position, especially if he sends his dog north to threaten our c7 cat.

Here's a possible continuation that has him send his dog north to threaten and capture our c7 cat, our elephant capturing his horse at f6 trap and dog at c6 trap, and finally his elephant capturing our dog at the f3 trap, leaving us up a rabbit. I.e:

39b ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e
40w Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
40b Hg4n ef4e eg4w ef4n
41w Da3n Da4n Da5n Da6e
41b ef5n Hg5w ef6w Hf5n Hf6x
42w Db6n cc7s cc6x Db7e Dc7w
42b ee6w ce7s ed6n ed7w
43w Ed3s Ed2e Ee2e Ef2e
43b Db7s ec7w Db6e Dc6x eb7s
44w Eg2w dh2w Rc2w Pass

Please take my proposed 40b more seriously than the speculative continuation after it.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by UruramTururam on Sep 2nd, 2008, 11:07pm

on 09/02/08 at 09:21:59, Fritzlein wrote:
Also 39g ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n deserves examination.


Quite a "race" position. I like it. I feel we should be ahead then.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by warren on Sep 3rd, 2008, 5:14pm

on 09/02/08 at 23:07:49, UruramTururam wrote:
Quite a "race" position. I like it. I feel we should be ahead then.

Do you prefer dg2n or dg2e as the fourth step in 39g ef4e eg4w Hg3n ____? If the former, can you explain why?

I currently prefer dg2e because in the most likely continuation that I see gold's elephant would threaten to capture our dog if we left it on g3.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by UruramTururam on Sep 3rd, 2008, 10:51pm
I prefer going north as we try to threaten both gold horse and cat. The position is a bit sharper.

By the way i think consulting Bomb in our current position could make sense...

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 5th, 2008, 4:35am
Several moves and ideas still in play.  Let's plan on voting Monday and try to finish discussion this weekend.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by warren on Sep 6th, 2008, 7:19am

on 09/05/08 at 04:35:57, RonWeasley wrote:
Several moves and ideas still in play.  Let's plan on voting Monday and try to finish discussion this weekend.


Does anyone support a move other than
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e (mistre)
or
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n (F)
?

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by 99of9 on Sep 7th, 2008, 3:38am

on 09/03/08 at 22:51:34, UruramTururam wrote:
By the way i think consulting Bomb in our current position could make sense...

At 12&13 ply gnobot suggests:
39s ef4w ee4e Re3n ef4e
(a bit like Ron's suggestion, but Fritz's countermove no longer works)

I'll set it running again after the continuous tourney game.

[Edit]
At 14 ply it changes to:
dc5n dc6w rd5e re5e
but this just looks weak.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 7th, 2008, 5:35am

on 09/07/08 at 03:38:04, 99of9 wrote:
At 12&13 ply gnobot suggests:
39s ef4w ee4e Re3n ef4e
(a bit like Ron's suggestion, but Fritz's countermove no longer works)

I thought of that: if Gold takes our dog with his horse it seems we get just a horse for both of our dogs.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by warren on Sep 7th, 2008, 11:17am
What about
39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e? The idea is to put our elephant in a better position after it pulls his horse north next turn. For example:

39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e
40w Ec4w dc5s dc4s dc3x Eb4e
40b eg5w Hg4n rc8w cc7n
41w ?? ?? ?? ??
41b ef5n Hg5w ef6w Hf5n Hf6x

The above line seems to leave us up a cat, so I think he'd have to respond by doing something other than capturing our dog. Perhaps 40w Re3n Re4e Hg4s Da3n or 40w Rd4e Re4e Ec4e Ed4e?

Update: if he sent his elephant to d3 on 40w after killing our dog, he could then move to take our other dog hostage on 41w. I trust that an extra cat and rabbit is plenty of compensation for having a hostage dog?

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 7th, 2008, 1:58pm

on 09/06/08 at 07:19:57, warren wrote:
Does anyone support a move other than
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e (mistre)
or
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n (F)
?

After a tiny bit more analysis, I think both of these are stronger than the other suggested moves.  For my suggestion we get a rabbit for our dog, and then chessandgo has to lose more material, although there are a few ways to lose only a rabbit, e.g.

39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n
40g Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
40s ef4s ef3n Re3e Rf3x ce7s
41g Ed3e Rg1w Rf1n Da3e
41s ef4s Hg4w Hf4n ef3n
42g Rd4e Re4n Hf5e Hg5e
42s ce6w Re5n Re6e Rf6x cd6e

Two rabbits is plenty of material compensation for the dog, and our position is seems strong as well.  On the other hand, after mistre's move 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e, I don't see how chessandgo can do better than lose a horse for a dog, which I think means it is objectively stronger than my suggestion.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 7th, 2008, 2:04pm

on 09/07/08 at 11:17:16, warren wrote:
What about
39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e? The idea is to put our elephant in a better position after it pulls his horse north next turn.

Doesn't that give him the option of declining the H for D trade?  For example
39s ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e
40g Rd4e Re4e Hg4s Da3e

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by 99of9 on Sep 7th, 2008, 2:20pm
deeper from gnobot

15 9517.1 77.3 2195 c5-c6 f4-e4 e4-f4 e3-e4 g2-f2 g3-g2 f2-e2 g2-f2 e7-e6 c6-b6 e4-e5 f4-e4 a3-b3 h3-g3 h4-h3

16 24653.9 138.4 1314 d5-e5 c5-d5 d5-d6 d4-d5 g3-f3 f3-f2 c4-c5 h1-h2 e7-e6 f4-e4 e4-f4 e3-e4 a3-b3 b1-a1 h3-g3 h4-h3

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by warren on Sep 7th, 2008, 5:10pm

on 09/07/08 at 13:58:46, Fritzlein wrote:
On the other hand, after mistre's move 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e, I don't see how chessandgo can do better than lose a horse for a dog, which I think means it is objectively stronger than my suggestion.

Doesn't Chessango get a bit more compensation for his horse than just a dog? For example he might take our south-east dog hostage, capture our c7 cat or capture one of our western rabbits. Even so, mistre's 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e still seems like our best option.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by warren on Sep 7th, 2008, 5:14pm

on 09/07/08 at 14:04:43, Fritzlein wrote:
Doesn't that give him the option of declining the H for D trade?  For example
39s ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e
40g Rd4e Re4e Hg4s Da3e

Yeah, I got carried away optimizing what happened after he took the dog and forgot that he might do something else. My 39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e is therefore not as good as mistre's 39b ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 7th, 2008, 6:32pm

on 09/07/08 at 17:10:30, warren wrote:
Doesn't Chessango get a bit more compensation for his horse than just a dog? For example he might take our south-east dog hostage, capture our c7 cat or capture one of our western rabbits.

Oh, good call.  I totally don't mind him taking our dog hostage with his elephant, because hostage values decline on such a depleted board, but I got caught up in the idea that his elephant had to come to the southeast.  If he flips our dog in place, and operates in the west as you suggest, then the race actually looks very dicey for us.  The advantage of dg2n instead of dg2e is that our threats in the east and center are so strong that chessandgo's elephant can't play in the west.  Therefore (although I reserve the right to flip-flop again), I am supporting 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n rather than 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e at the moment.

This move decision turns out to be trickier than I thought, since my current favorite move involves a temporary material sacrifice.  Someone else needs to confirm that 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n doesn't lose us material, because if it does, we need a closer look at some other alternatives.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by The_Jeh on Sep 7th, 2008, 7:15pm
Another move that should be taken seriously is ?g Da3n Da4n Da5n Da6e, although I think this is a reasonably easy threat to meet.

Incidentally, I can't seem to find a way for him to gain material. Perhaps 41g Ed3e Da3n Da4n Da5n is his best try?

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by mistre on Sep 8th, 2008, 9:26am
It appears that we are down to two alternatives:

39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n
and
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e

I guess we are in agreement that any move to save our dog is too weak as it keeps Chessandgo with too strong of a position around c6 with his Horse keeping our Dog Hostage.

My biggest problem with x x x dg2n is that Chessandgo can come back with his E and take our other dog if we proceed to take his horse. I can't find a way to save it. If on the other hand, we only take his R in f3, we would lose D for R and have a tenuous H hostage. Is this the intent with this move? To not take the Horse immediately?

For x x x dg2e, it is true that he can ignore the horse capture in the east and focus on the west. But the best that I found for him is to get an R out of it. So in essence we just traded D-R for H and are still up C. However, I did not look long term on this nor did I look at any race positions - is that a threat here?

I would also revise my original 40s to:

40s Hg4n ef4e ce7s rb5w

the 4th step to move the rabbit is stronger and moving the cat two steps is unnecessary anyways.


Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 8th, 2008, 10:06am

on 09/08/08 at 09:26:18, mistre wrote:
My biggest problem with x x x dg2n is that Chessandgo can come back with his E and take our other dog if we proceed to take his horse. I can't find a way to save it. If on the other hand, we only take his R in f3, we would lose D for R and have a tenuous H hostage. Is this the intent with this move? To not take the Horse immediately?

That's right, take the rabbit immediately, so we are temporarily down D for R. Next move we fork the horse. Our threats are so strong we should gain at least R additionally while he tries to save the H, as in the line I gave above. I think. It needs checking.

If the choice comes down to

(A) trading D+R for H and elephants apart, or
(B) trading D for R+R and elephants together,

then (B) is safer for us. Safer isn't necessarily better, I just haven't checked out that we win the race in the unsafe one.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 8th, 2008, 11:16am
Please check and advise.  I think we vote for which of these two we want.  Probably begin voting Tuesday.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by mistre on Sep 9th, 2008, 5:28pm
I finally got a chance to look at Fritz's line and I think I prefer it to the more uncertain line of x x x dg2e.

So I will give a voice vote for:
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n


Title: Re: Move 39
Post by NIC1138 on Sep 11th, 2008, 5:36pm
Hi, folks! I've been away for a long time... I wish I were here when that exciting camel and horse trade-off happened! :)

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by RonWeasley on Sep 12th, 2008, 3:55am
The dog goes north.  8-2.

Title: Re: Move 39
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 12th, 2008, 5:38am

on 09/11/08 at 17:36:00, NIC1138 wrote:
Hi, folks! I've been away for a long time... I wish I were here when that exciting camel and horse trade-off happened! :)

Welcome back! I think discussion has died down as people feel secure in our advantage, but there's still enough tension for things to quickly get exciting.  Somehow a solid material advantage never seems enough to ensure a boring endgame win.  Anyway, it's great to have another voice in the choir.



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