Arimaa Forum (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi)
Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 44
(Message started by: RonWeasley on Oct 17th, 2008, 12:21pm)

Title: Move 44
Post by RonWeasley on Oct 17th, 2008, 12:21pm
chessandgo responds rapidly with the anticipated

44g Ef4w re3w Ee4s Rf1n

The next move in my line was

44s dg3s dg2e Rf2e rf5s

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by The_Jeh on Oct 17th, 2008, 1:30pm
It looks good to me. Let's wrap this one up.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by warren on Oct 17th, 2008, 9:01pm

on 10/17/08 at 12:21:09, RonWeasley wrote:
chessandgo responds rapidly with the anticipated

44g Ef4w re3w Ee4s Rf1n

The next move in my line was

44s dg3s dg2e Rf2e rf5s

After RW's

44b dg3s dg2e Rf2e rf5s
45w Rc2e Rd2e Re2e Ra5n
45b Hg5w eg4n Hf5n Hf6x eg5w

Bomb found goal in 20 for C&G:

46w Db6n Db7w Da7e ra8s
46b ce5w cd5w cc5n cc6w
47w Rd4n Rd5n Rd6n Rb1n

It's not hard to defend against that, but I don't have a particular way in mind yet.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by 99of9 on Oct 18th, 2008, 3:57am
At 12 ply, Gnobot suggests
rf5s ce5w Hg5w eg4n

[edit: this is the result at every depth between 10 and 16]

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by Soter on Oct 18th, 2008, 4:42am
44s rf5s dg3w df3e Rf2n? Gold E gets pinned and can't kill our d3 rabbit without giving up his one of his own. And then maybe we can activate our h4 rabbit...

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by jdb on Oct 18th, 2008, 5:12am
This position is very sharp. Gold is 5 steps from making an unstoppable goal threat on the a file. If gold manages to firm up the defence just a little bit, there will be enough time to execute the threat.

44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by warren on Oct 18th, 2008, 6:59am

on 10/18/08 at 05:12:22, jdb wrote:
This position is very sharp. Gold is 5 steps from making an unstoppable goal threat on the a file. If gold manages to firm up the defence just a little bit, there will be enough time to execute the threat.

44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s

It seems we get a goal on 46s (our elephant abandons the horse and moves south) unless his 45g includes moving his b1 rabbit east three times. With the south-west depleted of defending rabbits the threat of our b5 rabbit seems to keep his north-west threat in check. Then we can capture his horse for a rabbit. I tentatively support
44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by The_Jeh on Oct 18th, 2008, 10:42am

on 10/18/08 at 06:59:06, warren wrote:
It seems we get a goal on 46s (our elephant abandons the horse and moves south) unless his 45g includes moving his b1 rabbit east three times. With the south-west depleted of defending rabbits the threat of our b5 rabbit seems to keep his north-west threat in check. Then we can capture his horse for a rabbit. I tentatively support
44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s



44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s
45g Ee3e rh3n Cg3e Ef3w
. 45s dg2n Rf2e rf4s rf3s (goal is unstoppable)
45g Ee3e Ef3w rf4s rf3x ra5n
. 45s eg4e rh3s eh4s (goal is unstoppable)
45g Rc2e Rd2e rd3w rc3x Ee3w
. 45s eg4e rh3s eh4s (goal is unstoppable)
45g Rb1e Rc1e Rd1e Ra5n
. 45s Cg3w eg4s Rf2w dg2w
. . 46g Hg5e Hh5s Hh4n rh3n
. . 46s eg3n rh4s rh3s eg4s (goal is unstoppable)
45g Rb1e Rc1e Rd1e Re1e
. 45s Cg3w eg4s Rf2w dg2w
. . 46g Hg5e Hh5s Hh4n rh3n
. . . 46s eg3n 4h4s rh3s eg4s (goal is unstoppable)
. . 46g Re2w Ee3s Cf3x Ee2s Rf1e
. . . 46s df2e Rg1w dg2s rh3s (goal is unstoppable)
45g Ee3e Rf2w Ef3s Rc2e
. 45s Cg3w eg4s rh3s ce5w
. . 46g Cf3w dg2s Ef2e Re2e
. . . 46s eg3w Ce2n ef3w cd5w (this results in a tricky position)
. . . . 47g Ce4n Rd4w Rf2w Hg5w
. . . . . 47s Rc4s Rc3x cc5s rd3w rc3s (goal is unstoppable)

What defense does Bomb propose for c&g after this 44s? Is this position a goal in 5 for us?

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by Soter on Oct 18th, 2008, 11:09am

Quote:
What defense does Bomb propose for c&g after this 44s? Is this position a goal in 4 for us?

45g rd3w rc3x Ee3w Ed3e Rh1n - if Gold plays that, Bomb announces our victory in 12 steps.

45g Ee3e Rf2w Ef3s Rc2e - see above, but in 20 steps.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by camelback on Oct 18th, 2008, 11:15am
Just to have the choices open, how about this move.

44s rf5s ce5w cd5w cc5s

gold has to spend 4 steps for defense, then we can have RonWeasley's move.

Title: eRe: Move 44
Post by Soter on Oct 18th, 2008, 11:18am
I'm not sure about 45g Ee3e rh3n Cg3e Ef3w - it may be a bit tougher to nut to crack; gonna check it soon. Though I would not be uncorking the champagne now, JDB's proposal looks surprisingly strong to me.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by warren on Oct 18th, 2008, 11:19am
After

44b rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s
45w Rb1e Rc1e Rd1e Ra5n
45b Cg3w eg4s Rf2w dg2w

Bomb says we win in 16.

Title: Re:  eRe: Move 44
Post by The_Jeh on Oct 18th, 2008, 11:27am

on 10/18/08 at 11:18:53, Soter wrote:
I'm not sure about 45g Ee3e rh3n Cg3e Ef3w - it may be a bit tougher to nut to crack; gonna check it soon. Though I would not be uncorking the champagne now, JDB's proposal looks surprisingly strong to me.


See my tree. I think that move is a goal in two for us.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by camelback on Oct 18th, 2008, 12:08pm
oops.. I didn't see jdb's move, that looks strongest.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by warren on Oct 18th, 2008, 1:36pm
After
44b rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s
45w Ee3e Rf2w Ef3s Rc2e

Bomb declares we win in 20. It continues:

45b Cg3w eg4s rh3s rd3e
46w Ef2s Cf3x Hg5e Hh5s Hh4s
46b Hh3n eg3e rf4s dg2n

Update: it currently seems that jdb's move makes us win in 4 moves, i.e. during move 47s.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by The_Jeh on Oct 18th, 2008, 1:49pm

on 10/18/08 at 13:36:25, warren wrote:
After
44b rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s
45w Ee3e Rf2w Ef3s Rc2e

Bomb declares we win in 20. It continues:

45b Cg3w eg4s rh3s rd3e
46w Ef2s Cf3x Hg5e Hh5s Hh4s
46b Hh3n eg3e rf4s dg2n


That's the only response I could find that I was leery about. If that, too, is a forced goal, then my intuition is that we can force goal on move 47. Maybe let Bomb run for a while on this 44s to see if a better 45g pops up, and then voice vote.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by warren on Oct 18th, 2008, 3:39pm
Here's the tree annotated with how many moves bomb thinks we have mate in. We win by move 47s unless there's a good move for gold that's not here.

44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s  
    45g Ee3e rh3n Cg3e Ef3w
    .    45s dg2n Rf2e rf4s rf3s (M8)
    45g Ee3e Ef3w rf4s rf3x ra5n (M11)
    45g Rc2e Rd2e rd3w rc3x Ee3w (M10)
    45g Rb1e Rc1e Rd1e Ra5n
    .    45s Cg3w eg4s Rf2w dg2w (M16)
    45g Rb1e Rc1e Rd1e Re1e
    .     45s Cg3w eg4s Rf2w dg2w (M23)
    45g Ee3e Rf2w Ef3s Rc2e (M20)
    45g rd3w rc3x Ee3w Ed3e Rh1n (M12)
    45g Db6n rb5n Rc2e Rh1n (M12)
    45g Ra5n Rc2e Rh1n Pass (M12)
    45g Ra5n Rc2e Rh1n Rb1e  (M12)
    45g Db6n rb5n Rb1e Rc1e (M20)

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by jdb on Oct 20th, 2008, 5:31am
I ran Clueless on the position.
It is a forced win.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by arimaa_master on Oct 20th, 2008, 5:58am
Hurray! We will win!

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by UruramTururam on Oct 20th, 2008, 6:04am
So let's move.

"Finish it, sir! Save the disgrace!" (-Sienkiewicz, "The Flood")

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by The_Jeh on Oct 20th, 2008, 6:57am
Yes, let's go. 44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s (-#4). Nice work, everyone. Nice find, jdb.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by warren on Oct 20th, 2008, 7:17am
Shall we tell C&G that he won't live to see 48g?

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by RonWeasley on Oct 20th, 2008, 9:42am
Thanx everyone for finding the flaw in my continuation.  I'm also finding that  44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s is best.  Here's a different response and how I'd propose to handle it.

44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s
45g rd3w rc3x Ee3w Ed3e Ra5n
45s Cg3w eg4s rh3s ce5w
46g Ee3s Ee2s Ee1e Ef1e
46s Rf2s Cf3x dg2w rf4w re4s
47g Hg5w Hf5w He5s Rf1w
47s df2w re3e rf3s rf2s

So far six mobsters (including me) in favor.

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by Janzert on Oct 20th, 2008, 10:55am

on 10/20/08 at 09:42:51, RonWeasley wrote:
Thanx everyone for finding the flaw in my continuation. I'm also finding that 44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s is best. Here's a different response and how I'd propose to handle it.

44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s
45g rd3w rc3x Ee3w Ed3e Ra5n
45s Cg3w eg4s rh3s ce5w
46g Ee3s Ee2s Ee1e Ef1e
46s Rf2s Cf3x dg2w rf4w re4s
47g Hg5w Hf5w He5s Rf1w
47s df2w re3e rf3s rf2s

So far six mobsters (including me) in favor.


After that 45g opfor finds the following forced win:
depth 14+
time 2141
nodes 211284144
qnodes 25310732
losing_moves 2903
depth_searched 4473
score 32653
pv eg4e rh3s rf4w eh4s w Hg5n Db6e Dc6x Rd4n Rc2n Rc3x b Cg3n dg2n rh2w rg2s
log: Sending forced win move in 2141.88 seconds.
bestmove: eg4e rh3s rf4w eh4s

OpFor hasn't been able to prove the forced loss from 45g yet, but seeing as Clueless was able to I certainly support the given 44s.

Janzert

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by Soter on Oct 20th, 2008, 12:14pm

Quote:
"Finish it, sir! Save the disgrace!" (-Sienkiewicz, "The Flood")

UT, this famous quotation from Sienkiewicz fits the mood so well... good ol' Henryk had a way with words ;).

Let's move. Onwards to victory.

P.S. Almost forgot about the most important matter -when do we start the next one? I'm quaking with impatience ;D

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by 99of9 on Oct 20th, 2008, 1:29pm
Feel free to play a forced win anytime!

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by RonWeasley on Oct 21st, 2008, 3:52am
I think enough TheMob has chimed in.  I'm making the move.

44s rf5s dg3s Ch3w rh4s

Title: Re: Move 44
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 24th, 2008, 10:51am
I finally looked at the position, and I vote for jdb's move too. ;)  I totally missed the point that chessandgo's threat to capture our rabbit in c3, although strong, commits his elephant so that it can't rein in our dog and stop the goal threat.  The gain of material would come at the cost of a fatal loss of time.  Did Clueless suggest that move (wow!) or just verify that it was a win once it was on the board?



Arimaa Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.