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Topic: Move 2 (Read 9313 times) |
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #15 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 4:25pm » |
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With regards to plan 2, Ennne,
The rabbit on f7 makes it harder for silver's camel to run from the elephant, into the middle. What happens if we simply go after his camel? Even if his camel does run away, there are no heavy pieces defending the f6 trap and once again the f7 rabbit is blocking support arriving from the other side of the board.
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Bildstein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #16 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 5:57pm » |
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I agree with Chessandgo that we need a strategy. I fully liked the idea of Ennn Hb2n, but then reading The_Jeh's quote of Fritzlein, part of the idea of Fritzlein's setup seems to be that an E+H attack on the west side won't be effective because silver has E+H+H there. Now I am concerned. I don't believe there's much, if anything, to be gained there.
Still, I am convinced about the tempo losing issues with Ennne.
Ennn Hb2n might still be okay. In a sense, it's more a defensive move than an attacking move, in that it gives our elephant mobility while defending the trap that's probably under the most pressure at the moment.
But if anyone can think of a specific plan to deal with silver's setup and Fritzlein's strategy as set out in The_Jeh's post, please do, and post here :)
Otherwise I can see us falling in to a defensive game, in the absence of a plan we can execute quickly enough. In fact I wonder if that's what Fritzlein expects? Or is he more expecting us to commit to an attack that won't work?
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #17 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 6:01pm » |
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on Dec 11th, 2008, 4:25pm, jdb wrote:With regards to plan 2, Ennne,
The rabbit on f7 makes it harder for silver's camel to run from the elephant, into the middle. What happens if we simply go after his camel? Even if his camel does run away, there are no heavy pieces defending the f6 trap and once again the f7 rabbit is blocking support arriving from the other side of the board.
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Chessandgo said
"even if we manage to pull a rabbit all the way to pinning it on f3, then silver's camel on g-file will become excellently placed, ready to mess with our pinning Hg3, and not fearing to be taken hostage on this wing as there is already the pinned rf3."
If Chessandgo is correct when he says pulling the h7 rabbit wouldn't help us, then sending our elephant east to threaten his camel at this point seems like a bad idea.
Update: here's the continuation if things go analogously to game 83795 but with C&G's corrected 4w:
2w Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Hb2n
2b hb7s ee7s ee6s de8s
3w Hb3n Hb4n Hb5w Ha5n
3b ee5s ee4w rh7s rh8s
4w Dd1n Ha6s ra7s Ed5w
In the resulting position he can take our horse hostage, but that doesn't seem to help him any. Our threat against his a6 rabbit puts us up a bit I think.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 7:35pm by warren » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #18 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 1:28am » |
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tize,
I think Enn Hb2n Hg2n is perfectly fine, there is just one very (very) small drawback imo: with silver's m on g7 and no silver horse anywhere near getting to g3 if we don't occupy it first, there might be a tiny chance that we don't want our Horse on g3 in the future, in the prospect of a e-E deadlock on the west while silver's camel attacks the west. But this is possibly no concern at all.
jdb: I don't get what you mean. His camel is not "running away" not matter where we put our Elephant, as far as I can understand it will stay on g7 if our Phant is threatening. Indeed the rf7 might be target, if we go for a rabbitpull in the east it might be easier to threaten this f7 rabbit than the h7 one.
warren: I'm possibly wrong in saying that we prefer by far pulling a rabbit on his non-camel wing rather than on his camel wing. This is my understanding, but others might think differently.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #19 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 1:45am » |
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What we absolutely have to avoid, I think, is a position like 12b in Ron's linked game and 12b in my linked game (funny that we both fell for the same trick at the same move  ), even if silver's phant is on g4/b4 instead of f5/c5.
Note that we both could have avoided it quite simply:
In my game, 12w Ee5w Mg3n x x for instance, or, even better, pull that d**n
rh7 to h6 much sooner.
In Ron's game it's a bit tougher, as silver's horse is activated while gold's is not, possibly just 12b E to b5 to get an ehhEH deadlock and cross towards eastern wing with the caMel was the simplest way to avoid that things turn bad and get a pretty equal and eventless game.
In any case, if we get a pull of the ra7 to a6 (which we probably can indeed if we want to), our a-file horse should not be threatened as easily as it was on both games.
In the event that we indeed advance a Horse on western wing but don't want to pull rabbits, just swarm with EHM (which, knowing Adanac's style, will get the support of at least one guy ) we will have to be a bit careful for such a trick.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #20 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 5:52am » |
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on Dec 11th, 2008, 6:10am, RonWeasley wrote:| I personally have more success with a plan that pulls things to my traps, rather than controlling opponents trap |
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If "things" are pieces, then it's quite often undoable unless the opponent cooperates by not helping them back with the elephant (like Fritzl did in Ron's linked game, when he decides to let gold drag the horse by not helping it back with the phant on 7b). This said, we might also try to mix this idea with jdb's idea (say, call it plan 3 ), bring our Elephant around e6, planning to push the rf7 to f6 if no piece stay on e7, to flip a piece staying on e7 (which is no problem for silver, as he can always unfreeze it and get it with his elephant, but this means his elephant has to remain centered), and profit from some kind of "elephants deadlocked in the center" to drag the ra7 toward c3 with our b-horse. This involves keeping our camel ready to go to western wing so that silver's horse can't invade it while our H is gone, and this means that silver's phant might need to be tied pretty strongly to the center so that this plan be successful. Basically, I don't like this plan as much as plan 1 which seems more direct and less dangerous (less risk of getting e+h'd around c3), but that would strike me as sensible.
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #21 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 7:04am » |
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on Dec 12th, 2008, 1:28am, chessandgo wrote:tize,
jdb: I don't get what you mean. His camel is not "running away" not matter where we put our Elephant, as far as I can understand it will stay on g7 if our Phant is threatening. Indeed the rf7 might be target, if we go for a rabbitpull in the east it might be easier to threaten this f7 rabbit than the h7 one.
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I will try and do a better job explaining, this time.
Silver has used an asymmetrical setup. He has his camel on (our) eastern wing. Based on previous games, silver wants to get both elephants committed in the west, and use his camel in the east. The idea of going after silver's camel is designed to prevent silver's plan.
Because of the rabbit on f7, it is difficult for silver's camel to slip into the middle. I agree that the camel will most likely stay put on g7. If gold's elephant goes to the g file, silver will need to use his elephant to block gold from placing the camel on the h file and threatening to push it up the board. Once silver's elephant has been committed to the east, gold's b2 horse can activate more safely in the west.
The main idea of going after the camel is not trying to drag a rabbit in the east. Its about keeping silver's elephant away from the west. In short, silver wants the elephants committed in the west, so we should try and get them committed in the east.
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #22 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 8:30am » |
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on Dec 12th, 2008, 7:04am, jdb wrote:
The main idea of going after the camel is not trying to drag a rabbit in the east. Its about keeping silver's elephant away from the west. In short, silver wants the elephants committed in the west, so we should try and get them committed in the east. |
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Can you post a continuation demonstrating how this plan might work out?
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #23 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 9:31am » |
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ok jdb, now I understand. This said, playing E to g6 to flip the camel to g5 or h6 next is almost impossible imo, as in the meantime silver's phant is likely to have time to capture a piece. At worst, silver might play rf7w mg7w when we play E on g6, but it's very unlikely that he needs to as far as I can tell.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #25 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 2:17pm » |
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on Dec 12th, 2008, 11:17am, jdb wrote:
Very interesting. I guess my last post was possibly completely wrong.
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #26 on: Dec 12th, 2008, 8:03pm » |
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on Dec 12th, 2008, 11:17am, jdb wrote:
This may be a bit off topic, but I'm surprised gold lost after getting the camel frame on move 10. The strategic cause of the loss seems to be the fact that silver either controlled or partly controlled all of the traps. Could gold have won after move 10 if he'd played more aggressively or was he already too constrained?
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #27 on: Dec 13th, 2008, 9:55am » |
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on Dec 12th, 2008, 11:17am, jdb wrote:
In that game gold pushed his elephant-side horse on the second (real) move (i.e. move 3w). We could achieve the same net effect of of those first two moves by pushing our phant three squares north and phant's horse one square on the first move (2w) and then chase the camel on the second move (3w) if we decide to go that way.
So as C&G said, it seems that if we choose plan 2, both moves are equally good and if we choose plan 1 the horse-push is better. So even if we were sure we wanted to choose plan 2, the non-committing move would be better since it would force Fritzlein to defend against both the elephant-horse threat and the camel-chasing threat.
I therefore support Ennn Hbn. There's no need to move immediately since our reserve is full, but I think we should aim to move before we start depleting our reserve 4 days from now.
P.S. If the setup move were called "move 0" things would be a lot more natural. For example, the second move that involves moving pieces would be called "move 2" rather than "move 3" as it is now. Arimaa is new enough that this change could probably be made safely.
Update: this post is wrong because our elephant cannot move through his. See my post at the top of page 3.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2008, 1:13pm by warren » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #28 on: Dec 13th, 2008, 2:48pm » |
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on Dec 12th, 2008, 11:17am, jdb wrote:
This is a very interesting game you're linking, jdb. I'm not a big fan of 2b, cg8s does not sound as pressing as ed6e for instance, and obviously 3b/4b lose 2 steps for free. But anyway, after 4b you have a very significant egde imo. Not absolutely sure how this would compare to the edge I imagine we should have after Ennn H to a6 on 2w/3w, I guess it depends on the relative value of a rabbit pull on the camel side and on the non-camel side. But if we are guaranteed to obtain the position of your game after 4b (up to c/r and D/R inversions from move 2), I would be rooting for this sequence, no matter how much I like the prospect of advancing a Horse on a non-camel wing. After 5w Md2e ra4s Ea5s Hb2n for instance, I can't see how silver can do anything but let us get an early rabbit frame on c3 besides short term tactics like 5b e to b4 which should not prevent us from getting a nice frame eventually.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #29 on: Dec 14th, 2008, 9:24am » |
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I had the chance to try jbd's plan today in a game:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=91410&s=b
I hope you guys don't mind. Not sure about the midgame fight, I probably made mistakes, but in any case I like the resulting position in the opening. I like this game's 3b is a tiny bit better than that in game 88595. Not sure about the two 4b's.
In any case, after 7w I definitely like gold's position.
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