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Topic: Move 2 (Read 9308 times) |
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #30 on: Dec 14th, 2008, 1:09pm » |
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on Dec 13th, 2008, 9:55am, warren wrote:
In that game gold pushed his elephant-side horse on the second (real) move (i.e. move 3w). We could achieve the same net effect of of those first two moves by pushing our phant three squares north and phant's horse one square on the first move (2w) and then chase the camel on the second move (3w) if we decide to go that way. |
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I withdraw the above statement. In game 83795 Fritzlein pushed his 'phant forward two squares, and our elephant cannot move through his. So if we want to go after the camel immediately we do indeed need to move our 'phant four squares this moves.
Update: I now support 2w Ennne (again).
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| « Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2008, 2:19pm by warren » |
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Adanac
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #31 on: Dec 14th, 2008, 1:14pm » |
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on Dec 14th, 2008, 9:24am, chessandgo wrote:I had the chance to try jbd's plan today in a game:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=91410&s=b
I hope you guys don't mind. Not sure about the midgame fight, I probably made mistakes, but in any case I like the resulting position in the opening. I like this game's 3b is a tiny bit better than that in game 88595. Not sure about the two 4b's.
In any case, after 7w I definitely like gold's position. |
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I certainly don't mind, our planning will be much easier with more games to study! It was interesting to play through all of the linked games.
After looking at your game and JDB's game, a common weakness was the b3 square. In both games there was an opportunity to solidify the square but at the cost of a passive position. For example, JDB could have played 12g Hc3e Mc4s Hd3s Mc3w and Chessandgo could have played 14g Ha4s Db3s Ha3e. In the 2nd example, Chessandgo was able to hold the position by blocking out b3 with a dog + 2 other pieces. Hopefully our Mob game won't get to a point where we have to choose between a weak b3 or a passive position...
I wonder how Fritzlein will change his strategy after these recent losses? He might mimic the game against Chessandgo but without the horse advance on the west side (west side in the Mob game, east side against Chessandgo). Less likely, but not out of the question, he may allow a silver camel hostage while flooding our east side.
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Bildstein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #32 on: Dec 14th, 2008, 4:47pm » |
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As I understand it, the problem with Ennne is that we waste some steps if silver attacks our west side and we have to run our phant back there. And Fritzlein has said that he's not worried about his camel being attacked because he's pretty happy with the defence the rabbits offer. (Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.)
But I can't see how it can actually play out badly for us, in practice. If silver moves his phant out he has to take a step to deal with the threat to the rabbit., and next turn it looks like we can defend our home trap easily enough.
My question is simply this: is there someone here that thinks that Ennne is likely to end up wasting steps (or compromising in some other way so we don't have to), and if so can they explain it to me?
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #33 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 7:24am » |
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on Dec 14th, 2008, 1:14pm, Adanac wrote:In the 2nd example, Chessandgo was able to hold the position by blocking out b3 with a dog + 2 other pieces. Hopefully our Mob game won't get to a point where we have to choose between a weak b3 or a passive position...
I wonder how Fritzlein will change his strategy after these recent losses? He might mimic the game against Chessandgo but without the horse advance on the west side (west side in the Mob game, east side against Chessandgo). Less likely, but not out of the question, he may allow a silver camel hostage while flooding our east side. |
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My 14w was terrible, it was definitely where the game became unclear again, your 14w would have given gold a huge advantage. In any case, I see no plan for silver if the e+h on the eastern wing (in the linked game, western for our game) yields nothing (which it does apparently). Guess I'm supporting 2w E to e5 now 
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #34 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 7:32am » |
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on Dec 14th, 2008, 4:47pm, Bildstein wrote:
My question is simply this: is there someone here that thinks that Ennne is likely to end up wasting steps (or compromising in some other way so we don't have to), and if so can they explain it to me? |
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well, both the two most discussed moves are "compromising" apparently: Ennne is good if we plan to 3w E to g6, and Ennn Hb2n is good if we plan to 3w Hb2 foward (each being "bad" for the other plan). Thus I think the choice for this move is already critical, probably the most critical of the whole opening, as the move we choose now will decide whether the game will turn into a rabbitpull/camelpull on eastern wing, probably yielding a theoretical fight of r framer vs m+smaller pieces swarmer, or whether it will turn into an E+H (+M?) vs E+h(+h?) on one wing and m vs H on the other (western) wing, with probably good rabbit pulling opportunities for gold on the crowded wing. Before this discussion I wholeheartedly favored second option, but jdb's plan (the real one, not my original misunderstanding ) seem to make 1st plan even easier to play out for gold ...
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #35 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 7:46am » |
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If we play E->e5 silver could block the path to g6 with e->f5. This looks a little unusual for silver, but who knows.
Maybe E->e4 Hb2n would be better? Silver can't block E->g6 on the next move, since there are two paths. It is likely tactically necessary to block the e file, so silver cant go to e->e3 on his first move.
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #36 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 7:53am » |
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If we play analogously to Fritz and Chessandgo's recent 91410 game the first few moves would be:
2w Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Ed5e
2b ee7s de8s hb7s hb6s
3w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5n Hb2n
3b ee6s de7s rf7w mg7w
4w Eg6e Eh6s rh7s Hg2n
4b ee5s ee4s ee3w Me2n
5w Eh5w rh6s Eg5w rh5w
Does anyone see any flaws in this variation?
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #37 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 8:23am » |
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This is a lively discussion, but it's about time to vote. Please make your closing statements. We can vote tomorrow if there are no objections.
Either of our two leading moves look OK to me. The E->e5 is different than what I would play, but it would be interesting if we could exploit the silver camel, thereby refuting the setup.
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #38 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 8:24am » |
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on Dec 15th, 2008, 7:46am, jdb wrote:If we play E->e5 silver could block the path to g6 with e->f5. This looks a little unusual for silver, but who knows.
Maybe E->e4 Hb2n would be better? Silver can't block E->g6 on the next move, since there are two paths. It is likely tactically necessary to block the e file, so silver cant go to e->e3 on his first move. |
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If he plays e->f5 we accomplish our goal of keeping his elephant in the east (at least temporarily). We can then suspend our camel-harassment plan, develop pieces and if he keeps his phant in the east proceed to pull the a7 rabbit with our horse. Once he moves his phant out of the way we can perhaps proceed with the camel-threat. So I don't think we have to worry about 2b e->f5
I don't like 2w E->e4 at first glance because it allows his elephant to get in a slightly better position after 2b e->e5 h->b6.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #39 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 12:20pm » |
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on Dec 15th, 2008, 8:24am, warren wrote:
If he plays e->f5 we accomplish our goal of keeping his elephant in the east (at least temporarily). We can then suspend our camel-harassment plan, develop pieces and if he keeps his phant in the east proceed to pull the a7 rabbit with our horse. Once he moves his phant out of the way we can perhaps proceed with the camel-threat. So I don't think we have to worry about 2b e->f5
I don't like 2w E->e4 at first glance because it allows his elephant to get in a slightly better position after 2b e->e5 h->b6. |
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I agree with Warren. I seriously doubt Fritzlein will move his Elephant to f5, but if he does we can go back to attacking in the west with the Silver Elephant wasting tempi getting back into the right position.
I like the camel-threat/rabbit-pull idea in the east. But I'm still leaning towards the horse advance in the west as the stronger plan. It's interesting the Chessandgo called this the most important decision of the opening. In live games, I usually play the opening four steps in about 5 seconds without any real thoughts. The Mob is teaching me better habits 
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Bildstein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #40 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 3:26pm » |
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Okay, my $0.02: Fritzlein puts his camel over there away from our elephant so that if we go after it we spend many steps, and so his development is faster than ours. I think he'll be happy to see us going after it, and I get the impression from what he's said about this setup that he doesn't think we can do much with his camel.
Of course warren's continuation shows us pulling a rabbit. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm seeing this continuation as "gold goes for a rabbit pull on the east wing" rather than "gold attacks silver's camel, with a threat of a rabbit pull".
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| « Last Edit: Dec 15th, 2008, 4:20pm by Bildstein » |
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warren
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #41 on: Dec 15th, 2008, 6:58pm » |
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on Dec 15th, 2008, 3:26pm, Bildstein wrote:| Of course warren's continuation shows us pulling a rabbit. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm seeing this continuation as "gold goes for a rabbit pull on the east wing" rather than "gold attacks silver's camel, with a threat of a rabbit pull". |
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Yep. One can think of the threat to the camel as a tactic to keep him distracted while we pull his rabbit.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #42 on: Dec 16th, 2008, 2:45am » |
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on Dec 15th, 2008, 12:20pm, Adanac wrote:
+1
2w Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Ed5e
2b ee7s de8s hb7s hb6s
3w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5n Hb2n
3b ee6s de7s rf7w mg7w
4w Eg6e Eh6s rh7s Hg2n
4b ee5s ee4s ee3w Me2n
5w Eh5w rh6s Eg5w rh5w
Yes, I like this line, but there's a good Karl will play differently (so many moves possible ... )
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #43 on: Dec 17th, 2008, 1:30pm » |
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TheMob chooses E->d5, H->b3.
For the record:
1. 2. 3.
1. Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Hb2n (E->d5, H->b3) - 7 11
2. Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Ed5e (E->e5) 3 - 9
3. Ed2n Ed3n Hb2n Hg2n (E->d4, H->b3, H->g3) 0 1 -
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Bildstein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #44 on: Dec 17th, 2008, 2:48pm » |
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So the mob has chosen Ennn Hb2n. From the earlier discussion, this seems to a) be the move that commits us least, and b) have potential for an E+H attack in the west.
But as we're not committed, and it's silver's move, I guess now we wait. I'm sure whatever move Fritzlein comes up with, it will give us plenty to think about. And I for one would not like to try guessing what it will be.
(As an aside, what do you guys think Fritzlein was expecting from us? I reckon he was probably expecting this move. It is, after all, the safe move.)
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