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Topic: Move 4 (Read 5808 times) |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #15 on: Jan 14th, 2009, 5:20am » |
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on Jan 13th, 2009, 9:46am, warren wrote:
How do we deal with
4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w
4b e->b5
? More generally don't we need to worry about him taking our horse hostage and framing it using his two-horse horse harassment trick?
Update: actually this seems to be more of a threat as a reply to 4w moves that do no include Ha5n since the rabbit pull delays him by putting a rabbit in his way. |
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I agree completely with this. I took more time in front of the board yesterday, and we definitely have to think what we will do after 4s e to b5 if we don't move our Ha5 on 4w, for instance after Adanac's move. If we do play a Ha5n step though, e to b5 is no threat as we can just pull the ra7, and there will be no more harassment tactics.
The other thing we might have to ponder in some lines is the flipping possibilities if we keep our M on d2 : for instance 4g Cf2w Ha5n Ed5w Ra3n 4s M to e3, but it seems we always two answers, like 5g Me3n Me4w Ec5e Mc4w which seems to hold and also 5g Hg2w Hf2n Ce2e Me3s.
I'm not very fond anymore of my proposal 4g Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5. I'm waiting to hear what you guys think about letting silver pull our Re1, especially Adanac who didn't seem to think it was a problem. I like your 4g Hg3n Cc2wn Md2w Adanac, it's the best move with respect to development I think, but unfortunately it does not threaten anything yet, so it's not this easy to find sufficient play after silver pulls the Re1 or plays e to b5.
Maybe 4g Cf2w Rf1n Ha5n Ec5w is good; the threats around f3 get weakened, as we would only lose a Rabbit should we lose a piece due to an e+m attack for instance before our Elephant comes back and protect the trap.
Also 4g Cf2w Ra3n Ha5n Ec5w allows us to postpone the decision of what we put on f2/g3, but tactically it might be a bit of trouble not covering the f3 trap.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #16 on: Jan 14th, 2009, 6:05am » |
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Yikes, I didn't notice the cat was endangered, sorry! :]
In times like this I sometimes like to play something like Cf2w Hg2w Dg1n Ed5s. Cluster everybody on the offending elephant. But this opening we've chosen seems not to favor this move very much...
Another possibility I see is just protect the cat with Re1n and move the elephant to one of his kill houses. e.g. Ha5e Hb5e Ed5n
We could also perhaps go for a cat trade... I love massacres! 
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warren
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #17 on: Jan 14th, 2009, 9:30am » |
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To counter his threat of e->b5 (hostaging our horse) we need to play either Ha5n or Ed5s. The latter seems like a step in the wrong direction, so I like Ha5n.
To save our cats in three steps it seems one of them needs to be Cf2w, which conveniently stops both threats at once using only one step.
He's also threatening an EH attack. To prevent this in the two steps remaining after the above two steps it seems we need to play Ed5w.
The above reasoning suggests 4g Cf2w Ha5n Ed5w ?? . It seems the last step can be used however we please. I don't have an opinion on the last step at this time.
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jdb
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #18 on: Jan 14th, 2009, 9:45am » |
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on Jan 13th, 2009, 6:08am, arimaa_master wrote:
I think that this move is met by c->g7 m->d6. And we are left with no good position.
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I agree this looks like a strong reply.
4g E->g5 C->e2
5s c->g7 m->d6
5g H->b3 E->f5
It seems wasteful to advance the horse and then retreat it, but if we consider only the resulting placement of the pieces, its ok. Silver f6 trap is weak because his heavy pieces are all on the other side of the board. Also the camel flip will not work on the next move.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2009, 9:46am by jdb » |
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warren
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #19 on: Jan 14th, 2009, 8:31pm » |
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on Jan 14th, 2009, 9:45am, jdb wrote:
I agree this looks like a strong reply.
4g E->g5 C->e2
5s c->g7 m->d6
5g H->b3 E->f5
It seems wasteful to advance the horse and then retreat it, but if we consider only the resulting placement of the pieces, its ok. Silver f6 trap is weak because his heavy pieces are all on the other side of the board. Also the camel flip will not work on the next move. |
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Won't he instead play 4s c->g7 h->b3, threatening our cat and camel? If we flip his camel he'll capture our cat and thereby threaten our camel too.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #20 on: Jan 15th, 2009, 5:53am » |
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Lots of discussion. I would like to consider voting beginning Friday with the vote ending Sunday or Monday. Try to finish, but we can extend the time if a mobster plans to do extensive analysis over the weekend.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #21 on: Jan 15th, 2009, 8:26am » |
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on Jan 14th, 2009, 9:45am, jdb wrote:
I agree this looks like a strong reply.
4g E->g5 C->e2
5s c->g7 m->d6
5g H->b3 E->f5
It seems wasteful to advance the horse and then retreat it, but if we consider only the resulting placement of the pieces, its ok. Silver f6 trap is weak because his heavy pieces are all on the other side of the board. Also the camel flip will not work on the next move. |
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As warren says in his last post, I would prefer hearing what you'd answer to 4s h to b3 x, as this is the line which seems to win material for silver 
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jdb
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #22 on: Jan 15th, 2009, 10:48am » |
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4g E->g5 C->e2
4s h->b3 h->d6
5g m->g4
5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x hc2n
5g M->b3 Rc2n
Which as you said loses a cat, but results in a camel hostage.
How much is a camel hostage is worth?
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| « Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2009, 10:48am by jdb » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #23 on: Jan 15th, 2009, 12:56pm » |
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Against a very competent player such as Fritzlein, a camel hostage is worth less than a cat to me. Maybe just a rabbit. That's because he can run a good flood and strategically make the hostage less valuable. Against a very average opponent, I might be willing to give away a cat. So I won't be voting in favor of that when there's a materially better alternative.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #24 on: Jan 16th, 2009, 1:44am » |
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on Jan 15th, 2009, 10:48am, jdb wrote:4g E->g5 C->e2
4s h->b3 h->d6
5g m->g4
5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x hc2n
5g M->b3 Rc2n
Which as you said loses a cat, but results in a camel hostage.
How much is a camel hostage is worth? |
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Not sure what the last steps of 5s stands for, as the h is on c4, say that it's de7s for instance. After your 5g hc5 to f4 and ed3e threatens to take the f2 square if we play the hostaging move m to h3, and there is no way to prevent this. It's true that we have our M and H ready for western wing attack, which is good, but we have a big probelm around f3. In any case I'm not fond of exchanging a Cat for a M hostage, even if we could hostage it in good conditions.
If you think that a m hostage is worth a cat (that is, given a m hostage for free, you'll end up with a "cat advantage" in average, and as Ron says one might think this is a bit optimistic in general), then giving up a cat for a m hostage is subpar, as we have to fight with a piece down until we get some compensation, which is much tougher than fighting with equal forces to get an advantage.
So you'd have to think that a M hostage is worth at least a full Dog to envision such an exchange in the vacuum, which I think is way way too optimistic. But it's an interesting point of view.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #25 on: Jan 16th, 2009, 2:06pm » |
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Did I miss any comments on Re1n Ha5e Hb5e Ed5n?...
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| « Last Edit: Jan 16th, 2009, 2:07pm by NIC1138 » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #26 on: Jan 17th, 2009, 1:16am » |
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on Jan 16th, 2009, 2:06pm, NIC1138 wrote:Did I miss any comments on Re1n Ha5e Hb5e Ed5n?...
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Hey Nic. I see 3 problems to your move:
- Re1n advances our rabbit in the center. after Adanac's 4w C->b3 M->c2 H->g3 for instance, 4s pull the Re1 to e2 is definitely a candidate move for Fritzl, ie you're making him save 5 steps by willingly advancing the Rabbit. It's true that other moves to protect the traps have their own problems as well, but hopefully not as big.
- Ha5->c5 makes us lose 2 steps together with the previous moves (Hw followed by He). If we had wanted to play H to b5/c5 and E to d6, then it's on the previous move that we should have done so. What is more, the Hc5 / Ed6 pattern is rather easily met, either by putting pieces on b7 c7 d7 to block, either by getting the elephant back to deal with the Hc5 (which is what Fritzl wants to do probably, to deadlock the western wing while his camel gets advantage by being the strongest piece on the east).
- even we want to threaten H to c7, then it's better to keep Hb5/Ed6 than Hc5/Ed6 I think, our H is less in trouble when the e comes back, and also closer to a6 in case we want to change gears and play another pattern.
so finally, the pattern we want to E+H with is rather Ha6/Ec5 to play Ec5w Eb5e hb6s ha6e and get the b6 square.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2009, 1:19am by chessandgo » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #27 on: Jan 17th, 2009, 1:26am » |
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Cf2w Hg2w Dg1n Ed5s (C->e2, H->g3, D->g2, E->d4) should be Cf2w Hg2w Dg1n Ed5s (C->e2, H->f2, D->g2, E->d4) I guess. I have not seen this move in the discussion btw (I have not seen any Ed5s step, have I missed one?). Ed5s is definitely a step which wastes 2 steps imo.
I don't recall seeing Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Cf2w (C->b3, M->c2, C->e2) either, this is a very interesting move. But silver still has 4s e->b5, which I guess is something Fritzl was hoping for with his setup. Although it's by no means a frightening prospect, we might have a tough time claiming any kind of advantage, contrary to a move like Ha6s Ec5w Cf2w Rf1n/Hg2w, where I can't see anything interesting for silver (4s m to g3 seems not to be threatening after E to f4, and after 4s h->b5 hd7->b6 we have C->b3 M ->c2 x, where silver horses will have to face our caMel. If silver plays a "developing" 4s we have H->b6 which seems a very pleasant prospect.)
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| « Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2009, 7:06am by chessandgo » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #28 on: Jan 17th, 2009, 6:59am » |
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Also, although I don't know what is the best move, my best guess so far would be Ha6s Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n, which is not among the candidate moves. But well, maybe replacing Rf1n by Hg2w is better? In any case, I would say Ha6s Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n is much more plausible move than pulling the ra7 for instance.
It's a tough task in any case to list candidate moves for this move, you're not doing an easy job Ron
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warren
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #29 on: Jan 17th, 2009, 7:26am » |
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on Jan 17th, 2009, 6:59am, chessandgo wrote:| Also, although I don't know what is the best move, my best guess so far would be Ha6s Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n |
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Don't you mean Ha6n?
Update: My favorite moves currently are Ha6n Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n and the variant with Hg2w instead of Rf1n. I'm guessing RW didn't conciously exclude the Rf1n move but simply failed to notice it among the sea of other proposals. Perhaps a ballot re-issue is in order?
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| « Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2009, 8:45am by warren » |
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