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Topic: Move 6 (Read 4080 times) |
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warren
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #15 on: Feb 15th, 2009, 10:46am » |
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6g E->d4 h->e4 Hf3e (warren)
6g E->d4 h->e4 Hf3w (Simon)
6s He3e ed3e x x (CG)
6s de7ss he4ee (CG)
6g C->b3 M->c2 D->d2 (warren)
6g C->b3 M->c2 E->c4 (warren)
6g C->b3 M->c2 Dg2n (AM)
6g C->b3 M->c2 Hf3e (CG)
6s mg6s mg5s mg4e Hg3n (warren)
7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s (simon)
7g Dg2n Hg4ws x (CG)
6g Ra2>^ Cc2^ Hf3> (Adanac)
6g Rb1^^ Cc2^ Hf3> (CG)
6g Rb1^^ Cc2< Md2< (warren)
6g H->a5 r->a6 E->c4 C->b2 (warren)
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| « Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2009, 11:10am by warren » |
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warren
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #16 on: Feb 15th, 2009, 11:39am » |
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I'm concerned Fritz might try to pull our f2 rabbit and trap it in the f6 trap. Something like:
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
7b hf4s hf3n Rf2n cg8s
8w Ec5e hb5e hc5s Ed5w
8b ee3w ed3n hc4w hb4w
9w Dg2w Ec5n dd6n Ec6e
9b ed4w ec4n hf4e Rf3n
Update: never mind, here's a better line for us:
9w Hb6n Rf3w cc7e Hb7e
9b rb8s rb7s ed4s ha4n
10w Ce2e Hc7w rb6e Hb7s
10b Re3n ed3e cd7w ha5n
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| « Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2009, 11:48am by warren » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #17 on: Feb 18th, 2009, 4:47am » |
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Not much commenting here. Unless this picks up, we vote tomorrow (Thursday).
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Adanac
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #18 on: Feb 18th, 2009, 5:48pm » |
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on Feb 15th, 2009, 11:39am, warren wrote:I'm concerned Fritz might try to pull our f2 rabbit and trap it in the f6 trap. Something like:
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
7b hf4s hf3n Rf2n cg8s
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At that point, Fritzlein would almost certainly play 7s hf4s Rf2s Hf3s instead giving him a huge advantage. His 4th step could even be mg6s, giving his camel a better attacking position on the east side, or even to set up a western camel move across the 5th rank (to harass our b6 horse), after our elephant retreats to f4.
I prefer to leave our camel on d2 rather than committing it to c2, so that later in the game we can decide which wing to place it on. I still like the idea of putting a rabbit on b3, but we could do it without the cat on c3, as I suggested earlier. Instead we could devote the extra step to blocking out the f2 square to discourage an attack a E+H attack against our southeast trap. Something like:
6g Rb1n Rb2n Hf3e Re1e
6s hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e (Silver horse -> b5, gold horse -> b6)
We got our horse on b6 but without allowing the silver horse onto f2. Fritz would probably continue by framing our horse on f3, but I think we can survive it OK:
7s mg6s mg5s Hg3w mg4s
8g Dd1e Rh1w Ec5e hb5e
8s ee3w Ce2n Ce3n ed3e (cat flip e2->e4)
9g De1e Rf1w Md2n Cc2e
Optically, our position doesn’t look great, but our elephant is in range to save our horse and our camel can still threaten the western silver horse. If that plan is too risky, then we should probably give up the idea of putting our horse on b6 with 7g. Unfortunately, that leaves our horse looking rather silly. I’d prefer to put the horse on b6 and see if we can survive the assault on the f3 trap.
If that whole line is too dangerous then I like arimaa_master’s suggestion of
6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n
I don’t think we’d have time to get our horse onto b6 with this line, so we’d probably have to shift our elephant east to defend against Fritzlein’s imminent attack, leaving our horse on a6. Fortunately, our camel is better positioned to harass the silver horse later in the game and our rabbits are still in fairly pristine condition.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #19 on: Feb 18th, 2009, 6:11pm » |
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Does anyone want a wacky idea? OK, how about a cat sacrifice?
6g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
6s hd4w ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x (cat captured)
7g Md2w Mc2w Mb2n Mb3n (Camel -> b4)
We have both of his horses tied up at the cost of a cat. I don't like it because his camel is free to attack our east side, but we do have some long-term strength on the west side despite the loss of the cat. I don't expect that anyone else actually likes this idea, so I'll end my analysis now 
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #20 on: Feb 20th, 2009, 2:32am » |
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on Feb 18th, 2009, 5:48pm, Adanac wrote:
At that point, Fritzlein would almost certainly play 7s hf4s Rf2s Hf3s instead giving him a huge advantage.
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Yes, one of the things we want absolutely to avoid is to let him get an e+h attack with hg3 or hf2.
on Feb 18th, 2009, 5:48pm, Adanac wrote:
I prefer to leave our camel on d2 rather than committing it to c2, so that later in the game we can decide which wing to place it on. |
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I am not sure I support this idea; moving our caMel to the east and leaving our western wing unprotected will be tough, no matter how the situation evolves. In my experience trying to cover both wings with the caMel when the opponent has a good attacking position, and when our hometraps are not very strongly protected is undoable in mid-term. I could be wrong though.
on Feb 18th, 2009, 5:48pm, Adanac wrote:
Something like:
6g Rb1n Rb2n Hf3e Re1e
6s hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e (Silver horse -> b5, gold horse -> b6)
We got our horse on b6 but without allowing the silver horse onto f2. Fritz would probably continue by framing our horse on f3, but I think we can survive it OK:
7s mg6s mg5s Hg3w mg4s
8g Dd1e Rh1w Ec5e hb5e
8s ee3w Ce2n Ce3n ed3e (cat flip e2->e4)
9g De1e Rf1w Md2n Cc2e
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I think after such a 6s we have to play E to f5. After your 7g, pushing the Horse to h3 forces capture on f3.
I think that having to play 7g E to f5 after this 6s and no matter what 6w we had played, os rather ok for us, as silver has to prevent his horse from being framed, allowing us to get our camel to b3 (especially if we had played C to b3 M to c2). Then we're ok, playing a MH vs h on the west, and EH vs emh on the east, which sounds good. Here the lost tempi wiht our phant going west then east are not a problem since silver lost at least as many tempi to get his eh on the east after putting then on d-file.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #21 on: Feb 20th, 2009, 3:39am » |
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on Feb 18th, 2009, 5:48pm, Adanac wrote:
If that whole line is too dangerous then I like arimaa_master’s suggestion of
6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n
I don’t think we’d have time to get our horse onto b6 with this line, so we’d probably have to shift our elephant east to defend against Fritzlein’s imminent attack, leaving our horse on a6. Fortunately, our camel is better positioned to harass the silver horse later in the game and our rabbits are still in fairly pristine condition.
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If you are expecting silver to bring his horse to the east, then you will have to replace the Dg3 by an Hg3 on next move, won't you?
on Feb 18th, 2009, 6:11pm, Adanac wrote:Does anyone want a wacky idea? OK, how about a cat sacrifice?
6g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
6s hd4w ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x (cat captured)
7g Md2w Mc2w Mb2n Mb3n (Camel -> b4)
We have both of his horses tied up at the cost of a cat. I don't like it because his camel is free to attack our east side, but we do have some long-term strength on the west side despite the loss of the cat. I don't expect that anyone else actually likes this idea, so I'll end my analysis now
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Nope, I don't like it, we are holding (not even hostaging) the horses on the same wing, with no hope of creating a second material threat as we can't attack c6.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #22 on: Feb 20th, 2009, 7:33am » |
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on Feb 20th, 2009, 2:32am, chessandgo wrote:| I think that having to play 7g E to f5 after this 6s and no matter what 6w we had played, os rather ok for us, as silver has to prevent his horse from being framed, allowing us to get our camel to b3 (especially if we had played C to b3 M to c2). Then we're ok, playing a MH vs h on the west, and EH vs emh on the east, which sounds good. Here the lost tempi wiht our phant going west then east are not a problem since silver lost at least as many tempi to get his eh on the east after putting then on d-file. |
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Good explanation, I'm convinced by this plan. I don't mind losing the tempos in the west (and being unable to get our horse onto b6 immediately), as long as we've got a good long-term position in the west.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #23 on: Feb 20th, 2009, 5:28pm » |
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I'm extending the voting for a while because only 7 votes have been cast. This is a difficult decision so I'm not disappointed. Please cast a vote if you can.
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warren
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #24 on: Feb 20th, 2009, 8:53pm » |
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I'm afraid I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm leaning towards
Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e (C->b3, M->c2, H->g3)
as my first choice, but I have no clue what a good second choice would be.
Is the following line ok for us?
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e ???? (Dd1n or Rh1w)
7b ee3e ef3w Rf2n ????
Update: in light of the above line I think I like
Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n (C->b3, M->c2, D->g3)
a bit better than Hf3e.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2009, 9:11pm by warren » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #25 on: Feb 21st, 2009, 2:44am » |
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on Feb 20th, 2009, 8:53pm, warren wrote:I'm afraid I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm leaning towards
Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e (C->b3, M->c2, H->g3)
as my first choice, but I have no clue what a good second choice would be.
Is the following line ok for us?
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e ???? (Dd1n or Rh1w)
7b ee3e ef3w Rf2n ????
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interesting question warren; I would have said that
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e Re1e
7b ee3e ef3w Rf2n cg7s
8g Mc2nnw Rc1n
should be fine for us. But actually silver has 8s ed3s hf4e Rf3n ee4w, which does not seem promising for us. So maybe we'd have to play something like 8g Mc2n Rc1n hf4w Ef5s instead. Our Rf3 might not be that weak, but this position does not seem to match our greatest dreams ...
on Feb 20th, 2009, 8:53pm, warren wrote:
Update: in light of the above line I think I like
Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n (C->b3, M->c2, D->g3)
a bit better than Hf3e.
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Actually after 6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n, silver will rather play ed3e hd4eee I think. I don't see better than replacing the Dg3 with the Hf3 then. On the other hand, the outcome might be similar to playing Hf3e on 6g, as if silver next plays an hg4w step, both sides will have lost two steps. So I guess I have to withdraw my concerned observations on this 6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n move :)
Maybe the C to b3 M to c2 are not that great, so what about simon's 6g ec5s hd4e ec4e Hf3w in the end? Say for instance 6s He3e ed3e he4e de6s. We cannot answer 7g M to c3 x x without letting silver get the g3 square for his horse. The outcome will be very similar to the above lines, ubnless we try 7g h to f3. Then silver gets an ee3+hf2 attack around f2, but now Adanac's idea of going _east_ with the caMel comes into effect, for instance 7s Rf2s hf3s rh7ss 8g Rf1w Re1w x x (the last two steps being possibly like Ha6se to prevent h to b3, maybe). On next move we are likely to be able to frame back the horse on f3. Silver will be able to immediately release the frame thanks to his camel, if he plays 8s rh5s mg6s x x, after which it gets very unclear, maybe each side getting a horse hostage.
All this is rather unclear.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #26 on: Feb 21st, 2009, 2:49am » |
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So maybe the best thing is actually to look for a better 7g in the line
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e Re1e
Maybe 7w Ec5e Re1e Mc1n Rc1n is better. On d5 our phant is within reach of f4 so mssH> is not a threat. After 7s hf4sn Rf2n x, we have 8g E to e4 dd6 to d4, which is an improvement over the line in my previous post. Or maybe 7w Ec5see Re1e. Hmmmm
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Adanac
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #27 on: Feb 21st, 2009, 7:11am » |
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on Feb 21st, 2009, 2:44am, chessandgo wrote:
interesting question warren; I would have said that
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e Re1e
7b ee3e ef3w Rf2n cg7s
8g Mc2nnw Rc1n
should be fine for us. But actually silver has 8s ed3s hf4e Rf3n ee4w, which does not seem promising for us. So maybe we'd have to play something like 8g Mc2n Rc1n hf4w Ef5s instead. Our Rf3 might not be that weak, but this position does not seem to match our greatest dreams ... |
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If our greatest worry is that Karl will pull our rabbit up to f4, then we could easily counter with a rabbit pull of our own on the west side and leave our elephant on f5 to make it more time-consuming for him to capture our rabbit.
6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6s hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7g Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e de6s
7s ee3e ef3w Rf2n cg8s
8g Ha6s ra7s Ha5s ra6s (pull: Hr/vv)
8s ee3n hf4e Rf3n ee4w
9g Rf4w Ef5e Ha4s ra5s
We can lure the elephant back to the east, return our elephant to f5, and trade rabbits. I thought we were losing, so I'd be content to just level out the position with an exchange of rabbits.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2009, 7:12am by Adanac » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #28 on: Feb 21st, 2009, 7:48am » |
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Yes, that's very true Greg. So hopefully C-> b3 M-> c2 moves are fine. I hope we're not losing yet, after move 5s that would have been a bad opening 
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #29 on: Feb 22nd, 2009, 7:33am » |
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TheMob eventually selects C->b3, M->c2, H->g3.
This was a hard vote because none of the moves were really compelling. I think this difficulty discouraged some mobsters from voting. For those who were not here at the beginning of the first game, let me highlight a few options.
If you have no favorite candidate, it is perfectly fine to rank all acceptable candidates as #1. A tie. Maybe a tie among 8 candidates. That gets interpreted as a preference for those 8 over the others. Maybe that's all you can decide on a really hard vote like the one we just had. Our voting system handles this just fine.
Voting a tie when you're not really sure is better than not voting at all. I can look at how many votes have been cast so I know if we have TheMob's opinion represented. Lots of 'not sure' votes means that we're not sure but ready to move based on the few who are sure enough to rank the leading candidates. The outcome may be the same in either case, but it saves time on our clock if I see we have 10 or more votes and am confident that our opinion is represented.
So if in the future we have a hard decision and you're not really sure (I wasn't on this move), please vote a tie rather than not voting at all.
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