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Topic: Move 8 (Read 4037 times) |
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Simon
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Fritzlein moves
7s mg5s mg4n Dg3n de7s
I don't see this move in a quick glance at the anticipated responses in the move 7 thread,
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Simon
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #1 on: Mar 22nd, 2009, 2:32pm » |
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My first instinct was to move E to m, but I didn't see a way to do that and still prevent Fritzlein from threatening our camel next turn.
So, I think maybe spend all 4 steps strengthening the c3 trap.
Mc2n Dd1n Rc1n Ra2n perhaps?
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Simon
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #2 on: Mar 22nd, 2009, 2:47pm » |
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Er, some of those E to m positions only resulted in an immediate threat to the cat and then the camel after. But it still didn't look all that good to me, though it may be possible to salvage the situation.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #3 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:58am » |
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As a remark, Fritz's last move do not add up to the attack on the west. So that if it held before, it should hold now, and we might not need timeout for defence, so that we may envision a very agressive move, such as Hc4 Da4 Ec5.
By the way, one thing I have not seen mentioned yet, is that the a6 horse may also become a target, especially if our phant is away. Not too much danger as long we can threaten his horses with camel, but we should keep in mind that with an elephant on c4, for example, he needs only three steps to reach b6 (so four if he has a piece to move from there).
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #4 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 5:03am » |
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I suggest
8g Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n Ed5e
Mc2n Rc1n - prevents possible EH attack
Dd1n - prevents our Camel to be flipped (+ develops dog)
Ed5e - goes after camel with possible ED attack after some complications
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #5 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 7:38am » |
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The 3 first moves that springs to mind could be AM's move, and two "neutral" moves that just withdraw the Dog: Dd1n Hf3n Dg4s Hf4s or Dd1n Hf3e Dg4w Df4s, depending on whether we prefer Hf3-Dg3 or the converse. These last two seem pretty safe, just leading to a 1 step for 1 step exchange for 7s/8g (de6s for Dd1n, which looks ok for us).
After AM's (sharp) move, we have to consider 8s mg5nw Dg4nn, but then for instance 9g Ee5ew mf6s Hf3n looks good (without the Hf3n step, silver could e->d3 h->f4 m->f6). Also there is 8s mg5nn Dg4nn. Then 9g de6n Ee5n Hf3nn looks pretty bloody (9s Dg6e mg7s ed3e hd4e). There is also 9g flip the de6 to e4. Then 9s Dg6e mg7s ed3e de4e look bloody as well. At first sight it might look ok for silver, but I'm not sure at all.
Hannoskaj, I don't get what is the move you propose. As for the Ha6, unless our phant gets extremly busy on the east, it's unlikely to be threatened by silver's phant. We might have to keep it in mind indeed, but for the moment no worries I think.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #6 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 2:15pm » |
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Hannoskaj, I don't get what is the move you propose.
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Maybe because I switched right and left...
The move I had mentioned was Ef5 Hf4 Dh4.
In words: let the west fight for itself, and threaten strongly to take camel hostage. We need only two more steps for that, that is Mb4 Eb5. So that the attack on the west must force us to defend with three or four steps for a while.
If he chooses to defend camel, he needs three steps, either by advancing rabbit full in our dog's jaws, or with Db6 Ma5.
With an elephant so much in the right, you might understand why I was keeping an eye on Ha6.
That was merely an extreme suggestion based on the idea that we are free for one move.
Now, let us compare that with other suggestions, and think a little more.
For one thing, it defends the dog. if we compare to the suggestions Dd2 Dg3, or Dd2 Df3 Hg3, we have also the defense, but we add threats. On the other hand, the elephant is farther away, and we lose what threats we may have on d4 horse.
Notice that just moving the elephant defends dog, so that we may use only two or three steps and keep one or two for reinforcing west, namely Dd2 Ef5 Hf4, or Ef5 + 2 steps. I do not find a good idea for defense in the west with two steps.
If we commit to this kind of plan, I think that a local analysis of c3 and f6/f3 trap would be enlightening, under the hypothesis that pieces do not switch quadrants: if one elephant is forced to defense after such commitments, I guess his side is not well. By local analysis, I also mean that we also try to get lines with few steps, with the idea that th other steps are used on the other side.
Of course, this is if there is no defense of camel, otherwise our elephant is free to step back.
Well, mainly food for thought.
With regards to arimaa_master's suggestion, it sure requires analysis (my reflex would really be to pull the dog). It could be very good, though. I especially like the way it makes it difficult for the d4 horse to cross by c4; the Gold camel is hard to make go away here.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2009, 2:28pm by Hannoskaj » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #7 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 3:38pm » |
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oh ok, got you. Very interesting indeed, another sharp move. I guess the question is how hb6sss Cb3s turns out. We have the M to b2 ressource, and then ... Looks very tense. The Hf3n step in your 8g could also be an Hf3e step.
As far as the Ha6 is concerned, I still don't think it's likely to be threatened, silver has to dodge a camel capture on the other wing, and even if he gets back his camel, then our Elephant is always within reach of c5 is in one move.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #8 on: Mar 25th, 2009, 1:52pm » |
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on Mar 22nd, 2009, 2:32pm, Simon wrote:
Mc2n Dd1n Rc1n Ra2n perhaps? |
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Oh and btw Simon, if we don't move our Elephant, silver will certainly drag our Dg4, so the step Ed5e will become mandatory. Hence better play this step right now, as in AM's move; and when silver pulls the Dg4 anyway, we're happy not to have to play a Ra2n step, but rather some other step instead to fight the eastern battle.
Hannoskaj's idea is definitely very interesting, after 8g Ed5ee Hf3e (this looks more natural than Hf3n, although the latter might turn out to be better, in a case of a remote camel hostage maybe) Dg4e 8s hb6sss Cb2s 9g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w x (Ra3n or Dh4n) 9s ed3sw x (hd4w or hd4s maybe) x (maybe hh7s if we hadn't player Dh4n on previous move, or maybe cg8s, or rb7s or ...), the position is really wild. We can get an m hostage on the east, but it's rather unclear as our c3 trap is under silver's control, which makes it easier for silver to defend f3 with h +d for instance. It might look ok ...
Silver can also withdaw his camel (and giving a "free" camel hostage would be most un-Fritzlein-ish), with 8s rh7ss mg5s x (maybe hb6s) (or same move on 9s in some lines). Actually even though this rabbit advance looks optically bad as the rabbit just gets stuck on our Dh4, it might not be such a problem for silver, as his h-rabbit is happy to advance in many cases to support the g-file camel. For instance, we can play Mc3n Rc1n Dd1n x, hoping to defend strongly the west without the phant's help to be able to draw the rh5 to f3, but silver might have a crazy move like hb5ss Cb3s x (rb8s maybe), advancing his horse right onto our caMel. We actually might have trouble holding this horse hostage, as the elephant can always cross c3 to dislodge our caMel. The ehh vs m fight looks rather unclear but will ultimately turn silver's way if our Elephant does not come back to rescue.
Maybe I'm just hallucinating, but as crazy as it might seem, this possibility of silver attacking the west in spite of our caMel being there looks a bit frightening, and might be Fritzl's idea behind his horse to d4 manoeuver.
In any case, Hannoskaj move looks promising as silver might have to do unnatural things to meet it, so maybe we can find precise defenses against the western ehh attack that gives us the edge. What do you guys think?
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warren
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #9 on: Mar 25th, 2009, 7:43pm » |
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I don't like the idea of him owning our c3 trap with EHH after
8g E->f5 H->g3 D->h4. CG
8s hb6sss Cb3s CG
9g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w x (Ra3n or Dh4n) CG
Him taking our dog hostage after
8g Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n Ed5e AM
8s mg5nn Dg4nn
doesn't look great for us either. I'm therefore leaning towards the boring
8g Dd1n Hf3n Dg4s Hf4s CG
which trades a step for a step. What's he likely to reply to that with? Perhaps he'll just pull our dog again?
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| « Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2009, 7:47pm by warren » |
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warren
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #10 on: Mar 26th, 2009, 8:04am » |
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What about allocating two steps each to saving our dog and protecting our c3 trap:
8g Mc2n Rc1n Hf3e Dg4e
?
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #11 on: Mar 26th, 2009, 10:12am » |
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Are feeling close to a vote? No obvious front runner is appearing, but discussion is sparse. It's going to be hard for me to generate voting over the weekend so I would like to start voting either Friday mid-day or Monday. If we really want to start over the weekend, I can send the list of addresses to a volunteer.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #12 on: Mar 26th, 2009, 11:13am » |
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yes, discussion is sparse. If we want to play a quiet move, getting the Dg4 back to g3 or f3, we can play very quickly as there are very few choices for the last step and little risks. If we want to go for a more agressive move, like Hannoskaj's idea, we need to put in a lot more thought about it though.
Personally, I feel it would be a shame to pass on the opportunity. Maybe we'll conclude that it's too risky in the end, but it might also prove a very good spot to launch the fight, so I'd be for taking more time to sort it out.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2009, 11:15am by chessandgo » |
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #13 on: Mar 26th, 2009, 2:08pm » |
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Well, under closer examination, I really dislike what happens in the west on my and related moves:
If allowed, 8s Hsss cw 9g Ra2n Cb2w Mw x (and it's difficult to find a good x) 9s Esw Hd4s x
and the only defense losing camel, short of getting the elephant back and let again his camel wreck east, lies in the three steps Mn he Ms (or putting our camel north and getting IT hostage...), that he can undo in one step. Beurk.
An almost interesting try would be to defend shallowly west on 9g, with Me Rn, and push his camel toward our trap. He then has time to take our sacrificed rabbit and defend c3. After that we can finish the hostage position, but I think we are not that well-off.
On the other hand, even with our elephant on e5, I would fear the chessandgo's suggestion. That is, on ArimaaMaster's move
8g Ee Mn Rc1n Dn
I think that 8s Hsss cs is very disagreeable.
9g hw Mw Ee Hf3e(or n)
9s Rh7ss Mn He
10g Ha6ssw x (De or Ee) maybe ? Well, it looks better than what I feared.
And 9s He Eww Mn 10g silver camel to c4, looks horribly complicated, but might be better for us.
So AM's move looks ok.
A brand new possibility (let is muddy waters a little more) would be
8g Es he Mn Rn
or
8g Es he He De
with the idea to move the horse who would be controlling c4 from that playing field.
Second move also protects partly the dog and directly threaten horse.
Variations:
8g Es he Mn Rn
8s camel flip to e3
9g Hf3 moves...
8g Es he He De
8s Hsss cs
9g Ew Mnw hw looks good
8s Ee He xx does not look dangerous with the elephant on that side, and EH on c3 should now be efficiently covered by camel.
8s Ee Men dn
9g Eew hws looks critical. Is the horse bad enough long enough to give time to the elephant to rescue dog ? Or should we settle for the same HD formation one line above (that is play soon Hnn Ds Hs) ?
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 8
« Reply #14 on: Mar 26th, 2009, 2:58pm » |
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you mention 8s Hsss cw 9g Ra2n Cb2w Mw x Hannoskaj. x can be Ra3n. Then we can save our caMel on next move with only two steps (Ca2n Mb2w), hence with two steps to push the camel to g4, we don't lose material.
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