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Topic: Move 17 (Read 5624 times) |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #15 on: Jul 31st, 2009, 10:04am » |
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We are now into our reserve. Do we vote now or discuss more?
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #16 on: Jul 31st, 2009, 10:11am » |
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on Jul 30th, 2009, 4:35pm, Simon wrote:| I like it, (unless there's a good counter), it looks like it gets us out of the current strategic quagmire. However,while the tactics are sharp on our side (that brilliant double dog threat) they are much less sharp on the other side. For example, our camel will likely get stuck cut off from reinforcements except for the horse, so if Fritzlein can safely extract the elephant with the camel still attached to it from f3, he can eventually hostage one of the horse and camel with only the other to protect it, and then capture one or both. This will take awhile, so I wouldn't trust clueless to find it. |
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If the sliver e tries to back out with the gold M, I am hoping gold can at least stay even in the "piece race" by capturing at f3. It's sharp, but I can't find a way silver can prevent this.
If Fritz agrees with this, I expect him to keep to try to get e on d3, h on e3 and f4.
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #17 on: Jul 31st, 2009, 3:31pm » |
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on Jul 31st, 2009, 10:11am, RonWeasley wrote:
If the sliver e tries to back out with the gold M, I am hoping gold can at least stay even in the "piece race" by capturing at f3. It's sharp, but I can't find a way silver can prevent this.
If Fritz agrees with this, I expect him to keep to try to get e on d3, h on e3 and f4. |
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When looking at the lines clueless was wanting to play,
after the 18g moving the horse to d7, many lines have the horse on d7 moving into the centre of the board to free up the camel. I don't have time tonight, but I'll try and post a few lines in the morning. They were all extremely sharp.
Edit: Not enough time to post any lines today.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2009, 2:37am by jdb » |
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Simon
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #18 on: Jul 31st, 2009, 3:56pm » |
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on Jul 31st, 2009, 10:11am, RonWeasley wrote:
If the sliver e tries to back out with the gold M, I am hoping gold can at least stay even in the "piece race" by capturing at f3. It's sharp, but I can't find a way silver can prevent this.
If Fritz agrees with this, I expect him to keep to try to get e on d3, h on e3 and f4. |
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What I had meant by safe was avoiding any captures. I figured that an exchange would favour us, but it would be a good idea to check to see if he has a way to make it favour him.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #19 on: Aug 2nd, 2009, 12:14pm » |
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on Jul 30th, 2009, 4:09am, RonWeasley wrote:I'm looking at 17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.
Continuing:
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e
18s Me4n ee3n hd4s hd3e
19g dd6w dc6x Hd7s de6e df6x Hd6e
or
18s rc8s rf8s Me4n ee3n
19g Hd7e rf7n He7e Hf3w
Tactics are sharp and there may be a crushing silver move I don't see. If silver chooses not to go after the camel, gold moves the f3 horse to e3 and we are stable again. |
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There are many things I don't get. I don't understand why we play this 17g; we could for the sake of comparison play your 18g directly and keep 17g as a forcing move in reserve if we want later on to get this Me4/ee3 pattern (which I dont understand how it could be good for us actually). I don't get the last step of 17g either, why move the H to f3? If we passed this last step silver would push the M to e4 just as well I think. And unless I'm mistaken the second 18s proposed gives a horse capture to gold?
Continuing your moves silver could play 18s rf8s rc8s cb5n x for instance threatening Me4n ee3 Hd4se, I'm not sure what's the point for gold.
edit: I think I still like 17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n or things like this with the idea of shoving the Dc2 towards c7 as quickly as possible
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| « Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2009, 12:16pm by chessandgo » |
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Simon
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #20 on: Aug 2nd, 2009, 4:50pm » |
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I don't know what others have in mind, but one plan would be to try to unfreeze the camel and force a capture race.
If we don't do that I agree we need to get the dog in the battle, but I'm afraid Fritzlein will be able to rotate a horse out of the swarm and when that happens I don't think we'll have sufficient forces even with the dog.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2009, 4:51pm by Simon » |
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camelback
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #21 on: Aug 2nd, 2009, 9:36pm » |
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I continued a few lines from c&g as below.
-----1-----
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w hf4s rf5s de5e
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b he4n he5w ec4e ed4e
-----2------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b hf4w rf5s rf4s he4e
19w Hb6e dd6e Hc6e Mb3e
-----3-------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b de6s de5s hf4s de4e
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w Dc5e ec4n rf8s
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b Dd5e ec5e ed5s
looks fuzzy and silver has very good advantage I guess...
[EDIT] may be not, I'm not sure 
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| « Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2009, 9:40pm by camelback » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #22 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 5:43am » |
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I started a vote since I'm getting panicky about time. Post here if anybody has a new move or reason to cancel the vote. Please continue discussion if anybody has more ideas.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #23 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 6:12am » |
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on Aug 2nd, 2009, 9:36pm, camelback wrote:I continued a few lines from c&g as below.
-----1-----
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w hf4s rf5s de5e
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b he4n he5w ec4e ed4e
-----2------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b hf4w rf5s rf4s he4e
19w Hb6e dd6e Hc6e Mb3e
-----3-------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b de6s de5s hf4s de4e
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w Dc5e ec4n rf8s
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b Dd5e ec5e ed5s
looks fuzzy and silver has very good advantage I guess...
[EDIT] may be not, I'm not sure |
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If those are our best options, then we should consider other strategies. Maybe we should try to get our horse on the 7th rank and then advance rabbits. We can simultaneously threaten 3 pieces with 17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e. Fritzlein can sacrifice a piece with a camel flip to d5 or e4, but we’ve done well in all of the crazy tactical complications that I’ve looked at. A more cautious response from Fritz might be:
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4w Md3n he3w cb5n (blunder)
18g Hf2n Hf3w Rb1n Rb2n
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s Md3w ed4s cb5n rf8s
18g Cb4n Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
18s dd6s dd5w de6w rf7e
19g dc5n Cb6w dc6w
20g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
I also re-considered the cat flip to h3 to avoid getting buried on the east side, but we’re in the same bind we were with the D->d2 suggestion.
17g Eg3w cg4s cg3e Ef3e
17s de6s de5s rf8e rg8s
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
18s hf4n de4e df4s hf5s
19g Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Rb2e
19s rg5s rg7s rg6s ed4w
20g Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #24 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 10:19am » |
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It seems the current vote is obsolete since Adanac's new move is as credible as the others. I'm still panicking about the time. Anybody feel free to voice vote if you want to commit. Otherwise I will begin another vote Tuesday morning.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #25 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 12:16pm » |
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on Aug 2nd, 2009, 9:36pm, camelback wrote:I continued a few lines from c&g as below.
-----1-----
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w hf4s rf5s de5e
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b he4n he5w ec4e ed4e
-----2------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b hf4w rf5s rf4s he4e
19w Hb6e dd6e Hc6e Mb3e
-----3-------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b de6s de5s hf4s de4e
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w Dc5e ec4n rf8s
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b Dd5e ec5e ed5s
looks fuzzy and silver has very good advantage I guess...
[EDIT] may be not, I'm not sure |
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Hmmm so there are at least 2 moves killing the 18g of lines 1 and 2, one would have been enough actually  at least we're certain.
How about
17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
17s rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s as in your lines 1 and 2 (or 17s de6s de5s hf4s de4e as in line 3)
18g Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Dc5n
for instance after:
18s ed4w ec4n hf4s rf5s
I think we hold with
19g rc7w Dc6n Rb2e Mb3e
19s ec5n Hb6w ec6w de5s
20g Mc3e Md3n he3w Cb4s
now indeed all variations are dangerous, it seems to me that if can get some kind of semi-grip around c6, we should hold our own as silver's elephant cannot be both around f3 and c6. If we cannot then silver will in the end get a grip and rotate the phant out under good conditions. If you guys find other threatening tries for silver let's check them out as well.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2009, 12:17pm by chessandgo » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #26 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 12:22pm » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2009, 6:12am, Adanac wrote:
If those are our best options, then we should consider other strategies. Maybe we should try to get our horse on the 7th rank and then advance rabbits. We can simultaneously threaten 3 pieces with 17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e. Fritzlein can sacrifice a piece with a camel flip to d5 or e4, but we’ve done well in all of the crazy tactical complications that I’ve looked at. A more cautious response from Fritz might be:
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4w Md3n he3w cb5n (blunder)
18g Hf2n Hf3w Rb1n Rb2n
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s Md3w ed4s cb5n rf8s
18g Cb4n Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
18s dd6s dd5w de6w rf7e
19g dc5n Cb6w dc6w
20g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
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17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n
looks killing to me.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #27 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 1:19pm » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2009, 12:22pm, chessandgo wrote:
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n
looks killing to me. |
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18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6n ec5n ec6s Hd6w Hc6x
19g Md4e he3w Me4s Cb4s
or
18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s rc8s ec5e dc6s dc5s
19g Cd2n Md4e hf4n Me4e
19s Hd6w Hc6x ed5n ed6s ed5s
20g Mf4s Mf3n ee3e ef3x Mf4s
or
18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6w ec5s Md4e ec4e
19g de6e df6x Hd6e Rb1n Rb2n
This dog sacrifice by Fritzlein is surprisingly strong.
They are wacky lines so someone should check them with a computer. But I find that Fritzlein has a lot of weaknesses in his position if the tactics begin now - and that's what saves us when our horse gets into difficulty in the NW.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2009, 1:25pm by Adanac » |
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #28 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 5:29pm » |
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Looking at adanac's suggested move:
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n
The tactics look a little different if we play
17g Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e
The move still threatens 3 pieces. With the rabbit on the trap, the double camel drag on 17s takes an extra step to capture the camel.
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camelback
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #29 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 6:44pm » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2009, 5:29pm, jdb wrote:Looking at adanac's suggested move:
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n
The tactics look a little different if we play
17g Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e
The move still threatens 3 pieces. With the rabbit on the trap, the double camel drag on 17s takes an extra step to capture the camel. |
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I like jdb's variation of Adanac's move, I guess Fritz cannot double pull camel because of dog threat. Only possible strong move for Fritz and some continuing lines are below
17w Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e
17b ed4w Md3n rc6w rf8s
18w Cd2n Md4e hf4n Me4e
18b ec4n ec5n ec6s Hc7s Hc6x
19w Mf4w he3e hf3x Me4s Me3n
19b ec5s ec4e Me4n ed4e
20w Eg3w mg2n Ef3n mg3w mf3x
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