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   Author  Topic: Move 17  (Read 5613 times)
Simon
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #30 on: Aug 3rd, 2009, 10:25pm »
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For that variation, can we really punish Fritzlein for flipping the camel? It looks to me like we can't afford to.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #31 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 2:37am »
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on Aug 3rd, 2009, 1:19pm, Adanac wrote:

 
18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6n ec5n ec6s Hd6w Hc6x
19g Md4e he3w Me4s Cb4s
 
or
 
18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s rc8s ec5e dc6s dc5s
19g Cd2n Md4e hf4n Me4e
19s Hd6w Hc6x ed5n ed6s ed5s
20g Mf4s Mf3n ee3e ef3x Mf4s
 
or
 
18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6w ec5s Md4e ec4e
19g de6e df6x Hd6e Rb1n Rb2n  
This dog sacrifice by Fritzlein is surprisingly strong.
 
They are wacky lines so someone should check them with a computer.  But I find that Fritzlein has a lot of weaknesses in his position if the tactics begin now - and that's what saves us when our horse gets into difficulty in the NW.

 
interesting. How about  
 
18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s ec5e dc6x Hd6w Hc6x ed5n ed6s (I can't play this move in expert mode, dunno if it's a bug or if I'm doing something wrong). Looks to me that it's a H for d trade.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #32 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 2:47am »
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on Aug 3rd, 2009, 5:29pm, jdb wrote:
Looking at adanac's suggested move:
 
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n  
 
The tactics look a little different if we play
 
17g Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e
 
The move still threatens 3 pieces. With the rabbit on the trap, the double camel drag on 17s takes an extra step to capture the camel.

 
Yes, interesting even though pushing the r on c6 looks counterintuitive.
 
I don,'t know whether there is a good tactical move for silver then, but he can also just answer
 
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s
 
which absolutely holds it's own if he doesn't find better. What I don't like about this 17g (with rc7s or n) is that silver can go for a tactical fight if he wants to or basically just get the position back to where it stood, depending on what he sees, so we'd better be sure about ourselves to play such a move.
 
But it looks complicated, maybe it's the right way for us, even though I prefer to H+D around c6, unless there is some good follow-up for us after the peaceful 17s above.
« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2009, 2:59am by chessandgo » IP Logged

Adanac
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #33 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 3:28am »
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on Aug 4th, 2009, 2:47am, chessandgo wrote:

 
Yes, interesting even though pushing the r on c6 looks counterintuitive.
 
I don,'t know whether there is a good tactical move for silver then, but he can also just answer
 
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s
 
which absolutely holds it's own if he doesn't find better. What I don't like about this 17g (with rc7s or n) is that silver can go for a tactical fight if he wants to or basically just get the position back to where it stood, depending on what he sees, so we'd better be sure about ourselves to play such a move.
 
But it looks complicated, maybe it's the right way for us, even though I prefer to H+D around c6, unless there is some good follow-up for us after the peaceful 17s above.

 
OK, well voting is underway and my suggestion is probably too dangerous anyway.  I'll just vote on one of the original suggestions.
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #34 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 5:24am »
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on Aug 4th, 2009, 2:47am, chessandgo wrote:

 
Yes, interesting even though pushing the r on c6 looks counterintuitive.
 
I don,'t know whether there is a good tactical move for silver then, but he can also just answer
 
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s
 
which absolutely holds it's own if he doesn't find better. What I don't like about this 17g (with rc7s or n) is that silver can go for a tactical fight if he wants to or basically just get the position back to where it stood, depending on what he sees, so we'd better be sure about ourselves to play such a move.
 
But it looks complicated, maybe it's the right way for us, even though I prefer to H+D around c6, unless there is some good follow-up for us after the peaceful 17s above.

 
I am away today, so this will be my last post for today.
 
The move
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
and chessandgo's move
17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n  
are both aiming at the same goal.
 
The dream setup for gold is a Horse on c7 and the Camel on b6 and the d1 dog in position to capture in c3 (the b5 cat looks tempting). This overloads silver's elephant, so something has to give.
 
Chessandgo's move works directly towards these goals. It positions the dog and starts the camel on a trip to b6. This is good.
 
So lets try combining the two ideas by delaying chessandgo's move one turn,
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s  
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
 
Gold has the same camel and dog position as playing the move directly, but the horse is in better position too. In effect, we use the tactics available on 17g to gain time in our plan to overload the elephant.  
 
But as chessandgo stated above, silver has the choice of whether or not to go for the tactical fight, so there is risk involved. Clueless did not see any short term tactical shot with this move. For comparison, it did find the horse/dog exchange when the rabbit is pushed to c8.
 
 
 
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #35 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 6:01am »
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I started a new vote adding the two new moves.  jdb states he is gone for the day so I will give him a bit of time and end the vote Wednesday morning around 10am EDT.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #36 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 6:25am »
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on Aug 4th, 2009, 5:24am, jdb wrote:

 
I am away today, so this will be my last post for today.
 
The move
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
and chessandgo's move
17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n  
are both aiming at the same goal.
 
The dream setup for gold is a Horse on c7 and the Camel on b6 and the d1 dog in position to capture in c3 (the b5 cat looks tempting). This overloads silver's elephant, so something has to give.
 
Chessandgo's move works directly towards these goals. It positions the dog and starts the camel on a trip to b6. This is good.
 
So lets try combining the two ideas by delaying chessandgo's move one turn,
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s  
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n

 
The biggest risk once again is probably
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n
18g Hc7e Hd7e de6ex He7s
 
This time we don't have to worry about immediate capture of our camel, but our position probably won't hold over the long-term.  Clueless might not have considered 17s because it drops a dog, but if it plays out the position a few more steps I'm sure we're not doing well.  I'm probably going to vote for one of the original suggestions, unless someone can prove that we really can survive these tactics.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #37 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 8:51am »
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Interesting pot, jbd.
 
on Aug 4th, 2009, 5:24am, jdb wrote:

The dream setup for gold is a Horse on c7 and the Camel on b6 and the d1 dog in position to capture in c3 (the b5 cat looks tempting). This overloads silver's elephant, so something has to give.

 
I would rather think that our caMel has realistically to stay within reach of e3. If we get the Mb6/Hc7/Db3-hostaging-a-cat position, silver will have had time to free a horse from f3 blockade, so he could answer with elephant covering c6 and free horse covering c3.
 
Our dream position would rather be M around c3, perhaps hostaging the cat, Db6 Hc7 in my views.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #38 on: Aug 4th, 2009, 8:55am »
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on Aug 4th, 2009, 5:24am, jdb wrote:

 
So lets try combining the two ideas by delaying chessandgo's move one turn,
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s  
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
 
Gold has the same camel and dog position as playing the move directly, but the horse is in better position too. In effect, we use the tactics available on 17g to gain time in our plan to overload the elephant.  
 

 
yes, but also silver's cat end up being free and useful on b6 rather than frozen and threatened by the c3 trap on rather term, which is a very big difference I think, big enough (perhaps, and perhaps more) to compensate for the horse position on c7 (and also the rabbit on c6 makes it harder for us to get control of c6 quickly).
 
So I wouldn't say the position after 18g in your line is better than that obtained by us playing directly this 18g as 17g.
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #39 on: Aug 5th, 2009, 7:28am »
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A whopping 6 votes were cast in this election.  The result was that two moves tied:
 
Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
and
Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
 
In the previous game someone explained that if there's a tie, you don't necessarily have a runoff, because the ranked ballot already has the preference between these two particular candidates.  So, as moderator I flipped a galleon, it came up heads, and Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n is the winner.
 
Our position is not very simple and some hard choices are in the future.  Let's be aware our time reserve is low.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #40 on: Aug 5th, 2009, 9:39am »
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on Aug 5th, 2009, 7:28am, RonWeasley wrote:
A whopping 6 votes were cast in this election.  The result was that two moves tied:
 
Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
and
Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
 
In the previous game someone explained that if there's a tie, you don't necessarily have a runoff, because the ranked ballot already has the preference between these two particular candidates.  So, as moderator I flipped a galleon, it came up heads, and Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n is the winner.
 
Our position is not very simple and some hard choices are in the future.  Let's be aware our time reserve is low.

 
Let's be pro-active and prepare some moves for 18g in advance.
 
If Fritzlein uses 2 dog moves to block our cat from reaching c5 or c7 then I propose moving our dog to b3.
 
If Fritzlein uses all 4 steps in the east then I will propose advancing the cat to c7, pushing the silver rabbit to d7.  Even though the cat will be taken hostage at d7 on 19s, we'll still be opening space for our rabbits on the west side.
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2009, 9:40am by Adanac » IP Logged


chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #41 on: Aug 5th, 2009, 11:07am »
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on Aug 5th, 2009, 9:39am, Adanac wrote:

 
Let's be pro-active and prepare some moves for 18g in advance.
 
If Fritzlein uses 2 dog moves to block our cat from reaching c5 or c7 then I propose moving our dog to b3.
 
If Fritzlein uses all 4 steps in the east then I will propose advancing the cat to c7, pushing the silver rabbit to d7.  Even though the cat will be taken hostage at d7 on 19s, we'll still be opening space for our rabbits on the west side.

 
I agree with this for the moment.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #42 on: Aug 5th, 2009, 11:11am »
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on Aug 5th, 2009, 7:28am, RonWeasley wrote:
 So, as moderator I flipped a galleon, it came up heads, and Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n is the winner.
 
Our position is not very simple and some hard choices are in the future.  Let's be aware our time reserve is low.

 
Oh yeah, Fred's tricked galleon which always shows tail? Smiley
 
Anyway I agree with this and Greg's advice, we can quite much guess what silver will roughly play (rf8sss plus some de6s or rb7s or random step, or perhaps dd6 to c5 + rf8ss or something similar), so let's try to decide right now what we play against these moves.
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aaaa
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #43 on: Aug 5th, 2009, 11:35am »
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I believe it's theoretically better to repeatedly pick out a random ballot to break ties and only pick a candidate randomly as a last resort after that.
 
Of course, given that this tie was two-way, it doesn't matter here.
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2009, 11:39am by aaaa » IP Logged
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