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Topic: Move 20 (Read 6378 times) |
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #15 on: Sep 19th, 2009, 3:36am » |
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on Sep 19th, 2009, 3:26am, chessandgo wrote:Hannoskaj:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
where I can't find a move. Oops. |
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Ah, I did seem to remember there was always a way to push the camel East, but could not find it again last time I looked at this 21g...
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Adanac
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #16 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 4:26am » |
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on Sep 19th, 2009, 3:26am, chessandgo wrote:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
where I can't find a move. Oops. |
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I think this will be a major problem. The 2 moves by Fritzlein in this variation are the two most likely candidates for him to play. Thus, if we can't get a good position here, then the entire variation is dubious.
If we immediately play
22g Mf3n Mf4n rg5n Mf5e
22s ee3n ee4e ef4n hg4w
and we lose a camel for horse exchange. After that, the h6 rabbit can take a step west to block out any future escape for our camel to the northeast. Otherwise, if we try to save our cat, then the silver dog can occupy b3 and our position is horrible:
22g Cc4s Cc3w Rb4w Dc1w
22s dc5s dc4w Cb3s db4s
Can anyone find a better alternative move for us at any point? If not, I absolutely hate the fact that we're going to either lose material or have any pieces infiltrate our SW trap.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2009, 5:30am by Adanac » |
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #17 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 5:06am » |
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on Sep 18th, 2009, 7:38am, chessandgo wrote:
I think that after arimaa_master's move what happens is even worse:
20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s Cc4s
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g cg4e Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x
21s ed4s Me3n ed3e X
and our caMel floats on e4.
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Yes, you are right, of course. So forget about my move!
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Adanac
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #18 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 6:04am » |
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I’ve been analyzing this variation that I proposed earlier, except this time the silver dog stays on c5. This prevents us from saving the c7 horse but makes our board centre more flexible:
(Note: these are just a few of the possible variations I looked at. It would take ridiculous amounts of time to fully analyze every variation in these crazy tactics!)
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e
21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Re2n
At this point Fritz can try to capture our horse and cat, but we get a mobile central camel and a strong strategic position. Alternatively, he can abandon the c7 horse in an attempt to trap our camel, but I think we can survive that.
21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s
22g Dh4s cg4e hf4e hf3x Me4e
22s ee5s rf5w Mf4n ee4e
23g Hce7e Hd7s Hd6e Dc1w
Alternatively, Fritz can fight for the c3 trap and even though we’ll have a difficult time capturing his horses, I think we’ll do well on a messy board holding a camel hostage:
21g Cd4s de4w Me3n Re2n
21s Cc4s dc5s Re3s hf3w
22g Cd3s he3w Me4s Re1w
22s hf4n cg4w ec6s Hc7s Hc6x
23g Me3n cf4s cf3x Me4e Dh4w
23s re5s re4s ec5e ed5e
24g Mf4w Dg4w re3e rf3x Me4s
At this point, Fritz can either play to contain our camel in the east or capture our dog:
24s ee5s Me3e ee4s rh6w
24s ee5s hf5w Df4n ee4e
25g Rd1e Cd2s hd3s Me3w
25s ef4w ee4s Df5n Df6x he5e
26g Re1e Cd1e hd2s Md3s
Our position gets messy, and we’re down material, but our stronger camel should give us excellent chances.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2009, 6:14am by Adanac » |
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #19 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 7:00am » |
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Adanac was five minutes faster than me.
I copy my initial message and add below comments on his variations.
Quote:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
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I have looked closely at this position and definitely don't like it. The aggressive 22g Me4 Hf4
loses in the fastest destruction war that ensues.
Variations where we take with our elephant on f4 seemed more playable, but we are fighting for equality.
So I have had another look at Adanac's
20g Mc3ee Cd2nn.
We look OK if Silver exchanges horses immediately.
20s De5s Re7ss Ra6s (Rh6w might be better)
21g Cd4n de4w Me3n x (Dc1w)
Complete control on f3 (+c3 tricks, possible f6) for one more turn makes it more than worth the possible cat sacrifice in the central blockade.
20s De5s Re7ss Cc5e
21g Me3w hf3w Md3s he3w
I think we hold our own end. And there are probably other possibilities on this 21g.
Another critical line would be
20s Dc5e cd4e Dd5s x (Rh6w)
Maybe
21g Cc4n Me3w hf3w x (Dc1w)
or
21g Me3we dd4s Ce4w ?
Definitely very sharp, but I prefer that 20g to any alternative right now.
on Sep 20th, 2009, 12:06am, Adanac wrote:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e
21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Re2n
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There (with 20s Rh6w instead of Rb8e), 21s re3w Hf3w Ec6w hc7nX looks good for Silver. That's why I don't like Re2n. Moreover the rabbit on e3 makes it harder for us to play on the c3 trap, even for one-time threats on dog and horse, which seemed useful to me in my testplay.
Do you have any efficient reply to the above 21s ?
However, i did not see the threat on camel
The alternative would mean we have to fight more if Fritz goes after camel. The following is again a mess, but I think our good control of traps, the advanced rabbits and the fact that it's hard to freeze camel makes it playable:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
20s de5s re7s re6s rh6w
21g Cd4n de4w Me3n x (Dc1w)
21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s
22g Re2n dd4s Me4w Cd5n
By the way, in the second part of your post, you work with 21g Cd4s instead of Cd4n. Not the same. I think north is more interesting.
Anyhow, after Adanac's 20g, we have at least practical chances from the mess, even if we may not be better (though I like the position). That sure is better than a straightforward road to strategic disadvantage. Adanac's move gets my vote.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2009, 7:06am by Hannoskaj » |
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #20 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 7:27am » |
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Ok, my vote for 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n too.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #21 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 10:08am » |
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Hannoskaj:
- You’re right, I mix-and-matched variations with Cd4n and Cd4s. I had looked at both variations and then when I summarized everything for the forum I got sloppy. The cat step south on 21g seems like a wasted step after we moved it north on 20g – except that it was only needed as a temporary obstacle. But I also kind of like sending the cat north as a sacrifice, because it’s such a great obstacle while we’re trying to capture the f3 trap. I’ll have to be more careful in the future when compiling analysis to make sure it’s more focused.
- If Fritz plays rh6w on move 20s, then we can advance our h4 dog north. It simultaneously threatens the g6 rabbit and our elephant can again access f4. It’s similar to RonWeasley’s suggestion, except the tactics work out much better for us.
- I don’t like advancing the e2 rabbit north but, unfortunately, there are variations where we’ll need it to keep the camel mobile if Fritz doesn’t capture the c7 horse.
- If we do clog the middle, I think we can actually proceed slowly with the idea of either saving the c7 horse or capturing lots of small pieces in f3, depening upon the response on 22s below. This is yet another candidate move for 21g, giving us a 3rd viable option for our next move:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e
21g Cd4n Cc4e Cd5n Re2w
21s Cd6e ec6e Ce6e Cf6x ed6e
22g Me3s hf3w he3w Me2n
22s ee6w ed6w ec6e Hc7s Hc6x
23g hd3w hc3x Me3w Md3e Dc1w
Fritzlein can deviate in a few ways here, but I’m really starting to like the idea of sending our cat north to create a wall of pieces in the middle. My instinct says that this 21g C -> d6 isn’t as strong as our other alternatives, but I feel better about this proposed 20g knowing that we have lots of options available on 21g.
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jdb
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #22 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 6:07pm » |
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Quote:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
I have looked closely at this position and definitely don't like it. The aggressive 22g Me4 Hf4
loses in the fastest destruction war that ensues. |
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As far as I can tell, this 22g doesn't lose any material. We end up exchanging camels and maybe horses. I have no idea who is winning, but material is equal.
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
22g Mf3n Mf4w Hf2n Hf3n
22s re7s de5w Me4n ee3n
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #23 on: Sep 20th, 2009, 10:37pm » |
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on Sep 20th, 2009, 6:07pm, jdb wrote:
As far as I can tell, this 22g doesn't lose any material. We end up exchanging camels and maybe horses. I have no idea who is winning, but material is equal.
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Just take cat:
22g Mf3nw Hf2nn
22s D takes cat
23g Me4e6 takes dog
23s E takes m
24g Eg3e3 takes camel
24s Ee6ss hf4n Ee4e
Beurk.
Quote:
- If Fritz plays rh6w on move 20s, then we can advance our h4 dog north. It simultaneously threatens the g6 rabbit and our elephant can again access f4. It’s similar to RonWeasley’s suggestion, except the tactics work out much better for us.
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Interesting. I had seen that gave us goal attacks possibilities along h column (and that's why I'm not too fond of killing g6 rabbit; it's a good shield) but had forgot it also threatened horse.
Silver might still not be that bad here, I think.
Quote:
- I don’t like advancing the e2 rabbit north but, unfortunately, there are variations where we’ll need it to keep the camel mobile if Fritz doesn’t capture the c7 horse.
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Do you have a specific example? Otherwise I like better playing it when we need it, when Fritz uses the elephant to go after camel, as suggested in my previous post. And if Fritz follows another line, we are not impeded by this rabbit in the way.
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jdb
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #24 on: Sep 21st, 2009, 5:49am » |
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Quote:Just take cat:
22g Mf3nw Hf2nn
22s D takes cat
23g Me4e6 takes dog
23s E takes m
24g Eg3e3 takes camel
24s Ee6ss hf4n Ee4e |
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25g Ee3n Ee4n rg5n Hf5e
At this point we are up a dog for a cat.
Now silver has some choices
25s Rb4e cb5s hg4s ef4n
26g Re2n Ee5s Rc2n Dc1n
26s ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
27g Ee4e Ef4s Ef3n hg3w hf3x
27s dc5e Rc4n Rc5n Rc6x dd5w
Now its a dog for a cat and rabbit. Once again, not sure who is winning.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #25 on: Sep 21st, 2009, 9:33am » |
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on Sep 20th, 2009, 6:04am, Adanac wrote:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e
21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Re2n
At this point Fritz can try to capture our horse and cat, but we get a mobile central camel and a strong strategic position. Alternatively, he can abandon the c7 horse in an attempt to trap our camel, but I think we can survive that.
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I'm worried about the following continuation where silver uses the rabbits on e5 and g5 to protect his horse:
21s Re3w hf3w rh6w (protecting the f6 trap) ra6s
22g he3s Mf3w Cc4s Cc3w
22s hf4w re5e re5s dc5s
23g Eg3w Ef3e rf4s rf3x Rh2n
23s ec6e Hc7n Hc6x Rg5w Rf5s
and when gold takes the rabbit, e->f4 covers the f3 trap and gold is behind material with a hanging cat. Gold can get a horse frame next, but it doesn't seem like enough compensation.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2009, 9:37am by RonWeasley » |
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mdk
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #26 on: Sep 21st, 2009, 12:45pm » |
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on Sep 21st, 2009, 9:33am, RonWeasley wrote:
I'm worried about the following continuation where silver uses the rabbits on e5 and g5 to protect his horse:
21s Re3w hf3w rh6w (protecting the f6 trap) ra6s
22g he3s Mf3w Cc4s Cc3w
22s hf4w re5e re5s dc5s
23g Eg3w Ef3e rf4s rf3x Rh2n
23s ec6e Hc7n Hc6x Rg5w Rf5s
and when gold takes the rabbit, e->f4 covers the f3 trap and gold is behind material with a hanging cat. Gold can get a horse frame next, but it doesn't seem like enough compensation.
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What about
22g Cc4s Cc3w hf4n Me4e
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Adanac
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #27 on: Sep 21st, 2009, 3:23pm » |
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on Sep 21st, 2009, 9:33am, RonWeasley wrote:
I'm worried about the following continuation where silver uses the rabbits on e5 and g5 to protect his horse:
21s Re3w hf3w rh6w (protecting the f6 trap) ra6s
22g he3s Mf3w Cc4s Cc3w
22s hf4w re5e re5s dc5s
23g Eg3w Ef3e rf4s rf3x Rh2n
23s ec6e Hc7n Hc6x Rg5w Rf5s
and when gold takes the rabbit, e->f4 covers the f3 trap and gold is behind material with a hanging cat. Gold can get a horse frame next, but it doesn't seem like enough compensation.
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Good point Ron. Even though mdk found a strong improvement for 22g, we’re still going to get into a messy situation where we’ll trade Horse for Horse with some terribly weak gold cats stuck in the north. We’ll need to improve the variation even further to make it worth consideration.
Maybe the Re2n move on 21g wasn’t necessary after all. The line I was worried about earlier was our camel not being able to capture the horse:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e
21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Dc1w
21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s
22g Re2n dd4s Me4w Db1n
22s ee5s Cd5e Md4n ee4w
The Re2n step on 21g makes it possible to capture the horse even if Fritz retreats the elephant to e5. But I’m starting to believe that we can survive just fine without that awkward rabbit move to e3. Instead, we can leave the e3 square unoccupied with better results if Fritz does decide to capture our horse:
20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n
20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e
21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Dc1w
21s hf3w Cc4s dc5s rh6w
22g Re2w he3s Me4s Cc3w
22s hf4n cg4w ec6e Hc7s Hc6x
23g Me3e Mf3w cf4s cf3x Me3w
23s re5s re4e dd4e dc4n
We’re losing a little bit of material in this variation, but I think our long-term position is great. Our camel is mobile and we’ve got lots of rabbits for an advance in the northwest. What I like about the variation as a whole is that silver’s army gets very disorganized with the congested middle and the elephant away from the Southeast trap. We’ll still hold the camel hostage while eventually re-organizing for a strong counter-attack on the other side.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #28 on: Sep 21st, 2009, 4:54pm » |
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on Sep 21st, 2009, 5:49am, jdb wrote:
25g Ee3n Ee4n rg5n Hf5e
At this point we are up a dog for a cat.
Now silver has some choices
25s Rb4e cb5s hg4s ef4n
26g Re2n Ee5s Rc2n Dc1n
26s ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
27g Ee4e Ef4s Ef3n hg3w hf3x
27s dc5e Rc4n Rc5n Rc6x dd5w
Now its a dog for a cat and rabbit. Once again, not sure who is winning. |
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I do like this particular line for our side, but what if Fritz plays the following 22s instead? I can’t find a way for us to escape unscathed. I think our camel and horse will be doomed once the silver horse occupies f4, freeing the elephant.
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
22g Mf3n Hf2n Mf4w Hf3n
22s Me4w ee3n Hf4n ee4e
23g Md4n Md5n Md6e Re2n
23s dc5e de5s Re3w de4s
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jdb
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #29 on: Sep 22nd, 2009, 5:01am » |
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on Sep 21st, 2009, 4:54pm, Adanac wrote:
I do like this particular line for our side, but what if Fritz plays the following 22s instead? I can’t find a way for us to escape unscathed. I think our camel and horse will be doomed once the silver horse occupies f4, freeing the elephant.
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e
20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s
21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w
21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e
22g Mf3n Hf2n Mf4w Hf3n
22s Me4w ee3n Hf4n ee4e
23g Md4n Md5n Md6e Re2n
23s dc5e de5s Re3w de4s
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I looked at your 22s. I agree it looks very good for silver.
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