Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register.
Mar 29th, 2024, 10:28am

Home Home Help Help Search Search Members Members Login Login Register Register
Arimaa Forum « Move 22 »


   Arimaa Forum
   Team Games
   2009 One vs TheMob
(Moderators: supersamu, RonWeasley)
   Move 22
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3  Reply Reply Notify of replies Notify of replies Send Topic Send Topic Print Print
   Author  Topic: Move 22  (Read 5914 times)
arimaa_master
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2010

   


Gender: male
Posts: 358
Re: Move 22
« Reply #15 on: Oct 5th, 2009, 6:28am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 4th, 2009, 9:51am, chessandgo wrote:

 
It's an interesting possibility, but after something like
 
22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Dc1w
22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e
23g Hf4n rg5n Hf5e Mf3n
23s re7e de5e cb5w Rb4n
 
I'm not sure whether we really have a good position. If we attack M+H around f6, feels like silver can hold to f6 while he's fine on the west, and has H to f2 prospects of our caMel leaves.

 
I think it is still looking playable - what about another 23g instead:
 
23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s
 
I cannot figure out all possible continuations but it seems to be a good choice to try to occupy f6 trap with horse and dog.
 
So it could go like this:
 
23s he4w ee3n de5n ee4n
24g rg5n Dg4n rg6w Dg5n
 
And I have no clue who is better - but this could be a good variation for us Smiley
 
 
 
IP Logged
jdb
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #214

   


Gender: male
Posts: 682
Re: Move 22
« Reply #16 on: Oct 7th, 2009, 11:06am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 5th, 2009, 6:28am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
I think it is still looking playable - what about another 23g instead:
 
23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s
 
I cannot figure out all possible continuations but it seems to be a good choice to try to occupy f6 trap with horse and dog.
 
So it could go like this:
 
23s he4w ee3n de5n ee4n
24g rg5n Dg4n rg6w Dg5n
 
And I have no clue who is better - but this could be a good variation for us Smiley
 
 
 

 
To me, this looks like the most promising line so far.
 
If gold could manage to work a rabbit up the h file, it would put some pressure on silver.  
 
It feels like gold should delay committing the camel. It needs to keep an eye on silver's horse.
 
Are there any ideas for other moves to look at, or a refutation for this move?
IP Logged
RonWeasley
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
*****




Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)

   


Gender: male
Posts: 882
Re: Move 22
« Reply #17 on: Oct 8th, 2009, 3:40am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 7th, 2009, 11:06am, jdb wrote:

 
To me, this looks like the most promising line so far.
 
If gold could manage to work a rabbit up the h file, it would put some pressure on silver.  
 
It feels like gold should delay committing the camel. It needs to keep an eye on silver's horse.
 
Are there any ideas for other moves to look at, or a refutation for this move?

I think this is the best way to go.  I tried to foil this with silver attacking c3 with h and d, but gold pushes the h-file rabbits and seems to win the race.
 
I looked at 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Re2w some more:
22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Re2w
22s Rb4e cb5s de5n he4n
23g Cc3w Hf4n cg4w Dh4w
23s ed4e Me3e ee4s rh6w
24g Dc1w Db1n Cb3w Db2n
24s dc5w Rc4n cb4e cc4e
25g Mf3s cf4s Dg4w Rh2n
25s Rc5n Rc6x db5e dc5s rb6s
26g Rh3n rg5s Hf5e Rc2w
 
This plays to similar themes but loses a rabbit in the process.
 
At this point I think we have another voice vote since the discussion favors
 
22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Dc1w
 
I'll count myself, A_M, and jdb.  That's 3 and we're looking for 6.  Others who commented favorably on this move, please voice again.
IP Logged
Adanac
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #892

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 635
Re: Move 22
« Reply #18 on: Oct 8th, 2009, 5:25am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 8th, 2009, 3:40am, RonWeasley wrote:

I think this is the best way to go.  I tried to foil this with silver attacking c3 with h and d, but gold pushes the h-file rabbits and seems to win the race.
 
I looked at 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Re2w some more:
22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Re2w
22s Rb4e cb5s de5n he4n
23g Cc3w Hf4n cg4w Dh4w
23s ed4e Me3e ee4s rh6w
24g Dc1w Db1n Cb3w Db2n
24s dc5w Rc4n cb4e cc4e
25g Mf3s cf4s Dg4w Rh2n
25s Rc5n Rc6x db5e dc5s rb6s

 
I haven't had time to look at the forum or analyze the position for a few days so I apologize if this has already been discussed:
 
Wouldn't Fritz just play 23s ed4e cf4s cf3x ee4e rh6w?
 
Also, are we giving voice support to the variation with Re2w or the one with Dc1w?
IP Logged


RonWeasley
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
*****




Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)

   


Gender: male
Posts: 882
Re: Move 22
« Reply #19 on: Oct 8th, 2009, 5:46am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 8th, 2009, 5:25am, Adanac wrote:

 
I haven't had time to look at the forum or analyze the position for a few days so I apologize if this has already been discussed:
 
Wouldn't Fritz just play 23s ed4e cf4s cf3x ee4e rh6w?
 
Also, are we giving voice support to the variation with Re2w or the one with Dc1w?

Sorry to confuse.  We are voice voting on the Dc1w variation.  My later remark was that the Re2w variation didn't work as well for me.  With your suggested 23s, it's even worse.
IP Logged
jdb
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #214

   


Gender: male
Posts: 682
Re: Move 22
« Reply #20 on: Oct 8th, 2009, 6:01am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 8th, 2009, 3:40am, RonWeasley wrote:

At this point I think we have another voice vote since the discussion favors
 
22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Dc1w
 
I'll count myself, A_M, and jdb.  That's 3 and we're looking for 6.  Others who commented favorably on this move, please voice again.

 
If we play this move, silver's next move is forced. (Unless he decides to give up his camel Grin )
 
22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e
 
AM's original suggestion was to follow up with,
23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s.
 
On 22g, there are still options to replace Dc1w. Cc3w, Ra1e and Ra2e shut down the goal threat as well. We should probably take a little time to look at these moves too. So I withdraw my voice vote.
 
IP Logged
RonWeasley
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
*****




Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)

   


Gender: male
Posts: 882
Re: Move 22
« Reply #21 on: Oct 8th, 2009, 8:45am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 8th, 2009, 6:01am, jdb wrote:

 
If we play this move, silver's next move is forced. (Unless he decides to give up his camel Grin )
 
22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e
 
AM's original suggestion was to follow up with,
23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s.
 
On 22g, there are still options to replace Dc1w. Cc3w, Ra1e and Ra2e shut down the goal threat as well. We should probably take a little time to look at these moves too. So I withdraw my voice vote.
 

And by my rules of voice voting, any objection stops the voice vote.
 
The reason I like Dc1w over the others is that it best allows the Dog to get to b3.  I want it there to keep silver from attacking c3 with (after a few moves) d->b3 and h->d3 after e->e3.
IP Logged
jdb
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #214

   


Gender: male
Posts: 682
Re: Move 22
« Reply #22 on: Oct 8th, 2009, 10:03am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 8th, 2009, 8:45am, RonWeasley wrote:

And by my rules of voice voting, any objection stops the voice vote.
 
The reason I like Dc1w over the others is that it best allows the Dog to get to b3.  I want it there to keep silver from attacking c3 with (after a few moves) d->b3 and h->d3 after e->e3.

 
At first glance moving the a1 or a2 rabbit doesn't look right. However moving the Cat to b3 may be a decent option.  
 
22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Cc3w
22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e    (Cd3w is possible too)
 
We are now 3 steps from threatening to capture the rabbit. If we eventually frame the rabbit the dog may be better placed on c2.
 
23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s
23s re7e de5n he4w hd4s
24g rg5e Dg4n Dg5n Ra2e
24s dc5s dc4s Cb3w dc3w
 
And things look really bad for gold. So to move the cat, something better is required.
 
So lets try Dc1w instead,
 
22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Dc1w
22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e    
23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s
23s re7e de5n he4w hd4s
 
Gold could frame the cat, but silver is still going to get the c3 trap.
 
Maybe,
 
24g H->c4
 
And now gold would have the strongest piece around the c3 trap. This could be an option for either the cat or the dog move.
 
 
 
 
IP Logged
Adanac
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #892

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 635
Re: Move 22
« Reply #23 on: Oct 9th, 2009, 5:06am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

I thought of a new idea, threatening the g4 cat, while blocking out the camel push onto f3.  I won't have time for a full analysis before work but I suspect Fritz would move his elephant to f4 and we could get our camel out to the west:
 
22g Hf2n Cc4s Dc1w Db1n
22s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e
23g Me3n Hf3w Me4w Md4w
IP Logged


RonWeasley
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
*****




Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)

   


Gender: male
Posts: 882
Re: Move 22
« Reply #24 on: Oct 9th, 2009, 8:44am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 9th, 2009, 5:06am, Adanac wrote:
I thought of a new idea, threatening the g4 cat, while blocking out the camel push onto f3.  I won't have time for a full analysis before work but I suspect Fritz would move his elephant to f4 and we could get our camel out to the west:
 
22g Hf2n Cc4s Dc1w Db1n
22s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e
23g Me3n Hf3w Me4w Md4w

This is me just thinking out loud using a different 22s, a Cat flip.  Seems to favor gold.
22g Hf2n Cc4s Dc1w Db1n
22s ed4w Cd3n Cd4n ec4e
23g cg4w Dh4w Hf3s cf4s cf3x
23s ed4s Me3e ed3e he4w
24g Mf3n Mf4w Dg4w Cc3e
24s dc5s Cd5w Cd3s hd4s
25g Db2n Me4w Md4n Md5n
25s hd3w Db3s hc3w rb6w
26g Cd2n Df4n Rh2n Rh3n
26s ee3n ee4w ed4n re7e
27g Eg3w mg2n Ef3w mg3w mf3x
27s Md6w ed5n Cc5e Mc6x dc4n
28g Ee3n Ee4w de5s Cd5e
28s hb3w rg5s rg4w de4s
29g Rh4w Rg4n Rg5n Re2w
29s ed6e ee6e Rg6s ef6e
30g Ce5n Ed4w dc5n dc6x Ec4n
 
So Hf2n variations are definitely worth looking at.
IP Logged
Hannoskaj
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #3794

   


Gender: male
Posts: 75
Re: Move 22
« Reply #25 on: Oct 9th, 2009, 8:52am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 9th, 2009, 5:06am, Adanac wrote:
I thought of a new idea, threatening the g4 cat, while blocking out the camel push onto f3.  I won't have time for a full analysis before work but I suspect Fritz would move his elephant to f4 and we could get our camel out to the west:
 
22g Hf2n Cc4s Dc1w Db1n
22s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e
23g Me3n Hf3w Me4w Md4w

 
That's one less step in the east. Hence, if the best Fritz has is putting the phant on f4, it's about sure this 22g is the better move.
 
The question is: can Fritz use the weakness of the threat (a cat) to do something else?
 
The most agressive seems
22s cd3s Ed4s cd2s Ed3s
 
For example:
23g cg4f4 Dh4g4 Hf3f2 cf4f3x (simple and probably best)
23s Ed2d3 rc2d2 cc3x me3f3 Ed3e3
24g Dg4g6 takes rabbit
24s Ra4a3 De5f5 He4e6  
One rabbit up, but maybe not for long.
 
23g Cc3d3 xxx and not move the Hf3 to keep the same kind of position  
 
23g cc3b3 Me3d3 Hf3e3 Md3c3
23s Ed2f2 re2f3
 
Hard to assess at first glance, and I still don't have time for more.
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2009, 10:46am by Hannoskaj » IP Logged
Adanac
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #892

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 635
Re: Move 22
« Reply #26 on: Oct 9th, 2009, 1:54pm »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 9th, 2009, 8:52am, Hannoskaj wrote:

 
That's one less step in the east. Hence, if the best Fritz has is putting the phant on f4, it's about sure this 22g is the better move.
 
The question is: can Fritz use the weakness of the threat (a cat) to do something else?
 
The most agressive seems
22s cd3s Ed4s cd2s Ed3s
 
For example:
23g cg4f4 Dh4g4 Hf3f2 cf4f3x (simple and probably best)
23s Ed2d3 rc2d2 cc3x me3f3 Ed3e3
24g Dg4g6 takes rabbit
24s Ra4a3 De5f5 He4e6  
One rabbit up, but maybe not for long.
 
23g Cc3d3 xxx and not move the Hf3 to keep the same kind of position  
 
23g cc3b3 Me3d3 Hf3e3 Md3c3
23s Ed2f2 re2f3
 
Hard to assess at first glance, and I still don't have time for more.

 
If this variation doesn't work out well for us, we can try 22g Hf2n Cc4s Re2w Dc1w instead so that we're not vulnerable on the c3 trap.  It's very similar to other variations with the blockade at d3 except we're using the dog to stop goal threats.  Unfortunately, we're not threatening to take the camel immediately, that's why it's not as threatening as the 22g cg4w Dh4w Cc4s Re2w variation (Fritz can play a cat flip to d5 with no immediate threats as pointed out by Ron).
 
However, if we do get our camel to c4 on 23g then the c3 trap is blocked.  Perhaps, 22g Hf2n Cc4s Cc3w Re2w to open the trap square instead?
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2009, 1:56pm by Adanac » IP Logged


Hannoskaj
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #3794

   


Gender: male
Posts: 75
Re: Move 22
« Reply #27 on: Oct 10th, 2009, 1:01am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 9th, 2009, 1:54pm, Adanac wrote:

 
If this variation doesn't work out well for us, we can try 22g Hf2n Cc4s Re2w Dc1w instead so that we're not vulnerable on the c3 trap.  It's very similar to other variations with the blockade at d3 except we're using the dog to stop goal threats.  Unfortunately, we're not threatening to take the camel immediately, that's why it's not as threatening as the 22g cg4w Dh4w Cc4s Re2w variation (Fritz can play a cat flip to d5 with no immediate threats as pointed out by Ron).
 
However, if we do get our camel to c4 on 23g then the c3 trap is blocked.  Perhaps, 22g Hf2n Cc4s Cc3w Re2w to open the trap square instead?

 
On both these latter suggestions, I am not convinced after shallow analysis. I don't like
22s He4f4 Ed4e4 me3e2
 
 
Yet another possible move would then be to completely seal the third rank with:
22g Rc2d2 Dc1c2 Hf2f3 Cc4c3
 
Then I can see two basic replies for Silver
1) 22s De5e6 He4e5 Ef4
probably comfortable for us, though perhaps slightly less so than after 22g Hf2f3 Cc4 Dc1b2. Maybe just slide all pieces west.  
 
2) 22s cat flip to d5
23g takes cat
23s Re7f7 Ed4d3 me3f3 Ee3f3
 
Here is a possible continuation with many ideas:
24g Mf3f4 he4d4 Mf4e4 Dg4f4
24s Dc5d6 takes cat
25g hd4d3 Me4d4 Df4e4 Re1d1
25s Cb5c4 Rg5g4 Rh5h4 (I think these rabbits could get dangerous enough to require watching on)
26g cat frame x
 
However, since west is weak, Silver may also play
22s rb4c4 Cb5b4 De5e6 He5e4
and there is a rabbit on b2 with cat on b3 if we take cg4... I find that line more worrying. An idea might be 23 cg4f4 Dh4g4 cf4e4 Hf3f4 making it impossible to defend camel in one move. However Silver gains steps using his goal threat.
 
By the way, after reading your first post
Quote:

22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Re2w
22s ed4e he3s ee4s re7e
23g cg4w Dh4w cf4s Dg4w  

does not look all that winning to me. Silver can immediately take cat, or play  
23s Ee3n Cf3x df4n Ee4e De5n to win the dog on next move, or keep that as a threat, plus possibilities of sending the horse to g1 to free the camel...
 
And I tend to think that our positions after the latter suggested moves are better than those after  22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Dc1w
 
Right now, the three moves I would consider are:
22g Hf2f4 Dc1b1 Cc4c3
Forced Silver reply, so that we still have to think on our time. Play for us in the east for silver in the west.
22g Hf2f3 Cc4 Dc1b2
The one I like best if Silver has to reply peacefully. But other possibilities that require analysis.
22g Less choice for Silver. Not sure in the complicated lines.
IP Logged
Adanac
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #892

   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 635
Re: Move 22
« Reply #28 on: Oct 10th, 2009, 7:32am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 10th, 2009, 1:01am, Hannoskaj wrote:
Yet another possible move would then be to completely seal the third rank with:
22g Rc2d2 Dc1c2 Hf2f3 Cc4c3
 
Then I can see two basic replies for Silver
1) 22s De5e6 He4e5 Ef4
probably comfortable for us, though perhaps slightly less so than after 22g Hf2f3 Cc4 Dc1b2. Maybe just slide all pieces west.  
 
2) 22s cat flip to d5
23g takes cat
23s Re7f7 Ed4d3 me3f3 Ee3f3
 
Here is a possible continuation with many ideas:
24g Mf3f4 he4d4 Mf4e4 Dg4f4
24s Dc5d6 takes cat
25g hd4d3 Me4d4 Df4e4 Re1d1
25s Cb5c4 Rg5g4 Rh5h4 (I think these rabbits could get dangerous enough to require watching on)
26g cat frame x
 
However, since west is weak, Silver may also play
22s rb4c4 Cb5b4 De5e6 He5e4
and there is a rabbit on b2 with cat on b3 if we take cg4... I find that line more worrying. An idea might be 23 cg4f4 Dh4g4 cf4e4 Hf3f4 making it impossible to defend camel in one move. However Silver gains steps using his goal threat.

I like this variation.  I typed out the analysis below in Word before I saw Hannoskaj’s post but luckily we analyzed different paths and there’s not too much duplication of work:
 
 
22g Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n
22s Rb4e cb5s de5n he4n
23g cg4w Dh4w Hf3s cf4s cf3x
23s ra4s ra3e rb3s cb4s
24g Re1w Rd1w Rc1w Rc4w
24s dc5s ed4e Me3e ee4s
25g Mf3n Mf4w Dg4w Me4w
 
We’ll probably lose the f4 dog, of course, but we’ll get more than enough compensation.  I’m not too worried about the b2 rabbit because I don’t see Fritz having any chance to force it through in the short-term.
 
25s ee3n Md4n ee4w he5e  doesn’t work for Fritz because he can only capture 1 piece, not both.
 
The cat flip to d5 allows us a mobile camel as well:
 
22g Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n
22s ed4w Cd3n Cd4n ec4e
23g cg4w Dh4w Hf3s cf4s cf3x
23s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e
24g Dg4e rg5s Cc3w Me3w
24s dc5n Cd5w dc6e Cc5n Cc6x
25g Cb3w Ca3e ra4s Rb4w
 
This looks good for gold.
 
22g Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n
22s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e
23g Me3n Hf3w Me4w Md4w
23s dc5n dc6n cb5w Rb4n
24g Mc4w ra4s Mb4w Cc3w
24s he5e ef4w He3e ee4s
 
Another pleasant scenario for us.
 
There’s nothing scary with this move other than the b2 silver rabbit up above.  But we can handle that just fine, I believe.  I’ve changed my mind again and I now like 22g  Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n.
 
 
 
IP Logged


arimaa_master
Forum Guru
*****



Arimaa player #2010

   


Gender: male
Posts: 358
Re: Move 22
« Reply #29 on: Oct 12th, 2009, 7:49am »
Quote Quote Modify Modify

on Oct 10th, 2009, 1:01am, Hannoskaj wrote:

 
Yet another possible move would then be to completely seal the third rank with:
22g Rc2d2 Dc1c2 Hf2f3 Cc4c3
 

 
Now I like this move the best too!
IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3  Reply Reply Notify of replies Notify of replies Send Topic Send Topic Print Print

« Previous topic | Next topic »

Arimaa Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.