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   Author  Topic: Move 25  (Read 5791 times)
Jonathan2357
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #15 on: Nov 14th, 2009, 7:08pm »
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Not that it matters, because I'm not in the voting group, but I also like d->g3 capture, after Adanac's comment.  (As I said, I'm still new at this, and still miss the occasional hanging piece).
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Simon
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #16 on: Nov 15th, 2009, 1:33pm »
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I think Ice's "breaking group thought" move deserves further consideration. The reason being that it may facilitate moving the horse to g3 and the dog to the other side of the trap.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2009, 1:35pm by Simon » IP Logged
mdk
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #17 on: Nov 15th, 2009, 7:15pm »
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on Nov 15th, 2009, 1:33pm, Simon wrote:
I think Ice's "breaking group thought" move deserves further consideration. The reason being that it may facilitate moving the horse to g3 and the dog to the other side of the trap.

 
The way I see this particular 25g is that if you don't capture the cat with the dog after pushing the cat with the dog then you are using more than 4 steps to capture the cat. Meanwhile there isn't any benefit to moving the rabbit or the elephant this turn since they can just be moved to these places next turn (if this is even where they turn out to be best placed). The f3 trap is under no immediate threat so moving the e2 rabbit definitely does not need to be done this turn. Also Fritz would be blundering to leave a piece on f5 this turn.  
 
It does force Fritz to capture our camel this turn but I assume he will do that regardless of our move. It also prevents Fritz from moving his horse to f6 on 25s although I would be rather confident in assuming Fritz's 3rd step will be used to move the elephant back to d5 after capturing the horse so he won't be moving his horse there anyway. Leaving the silver elephant on d6 would allow us to block his elephant with ours though by moving the gold elephant to d5.  
 
Because of this my conclusion is there is no benefit to doing anything other than capturing the cat immediately since we know we will be using 4 steps to do that anyway and if we do anything else we are simply preventing ourselves from reacting best to silver's move since our move won't be preventing silver's move. At best we will end up transposing to a position that could be achieved after capturing the dog immediately and at worst we will end up in a position worse than capturing the dog immediately.  
 
Of course if someone has some line suggesting otherwise please post it.
 
_____________________
 
If we are looking for alternative moves then in this position it seems you would want one that prevents the best gold move for 25s... either by moving the gold elephant to d4 or e5 and then pushing the cat with the dog to g3. However, this seems to be countered by 25s rg5w hg6s Md6w Mc6x ed5n leading to a tactically more complicated position where we definitely seem worse off than simply capturing the cat now. I think it's best to maximize the number of steps we can use in reaction to silver's move.
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2009, 1:52am by mdk » IP Logged
Adanac
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #18 on: Nov 15th, 2009, 7:34pm »
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on Nov 14th, 2009, 7:08pm, Jonathan2357 wrote:
Not that it matters, because I'm not in the voting group, but I also like d->g3 capture, after Adanac's comment.  (As I said, I'm still new at this, and still miss the occasional hanging piece).

 
You're part of the voting group now  Wink  Anyone can join at any time and all new Mobsters are welcome.
 
Your suggestion was actually pretty creative and it's great to have new ideas and fresh perspectives.   Offering a free horse to distract Fritz away from our camel was definitely worth a consideration.
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Simon
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #19 on: Nov 15th, 2009, 8:15pm »
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mdk, the idea behind my support for the move was that if we want the horse and dog to switch sides of the trap, then one of them is going to have to pass above or below the other, making a southward step of the dog (bringing the horse and dog to the same rank) a wasted step (or more than wasted). So ignoring Fritzlein's possible responses, if we eventually want a piece arrangement of say, H on g3, D on e3, R on f2, E on f5, then we save 2 steps by doing Ice's move now instead of taking the cat with the dog now.
 
So this move is somewhat of a gamble that Fritzlein can't complicate the situation enough to make the saved steps wasted. I am not confident of this at all, as it looks like Fritzlein can block the dog crossing with his elephant. But anyway, the point of the move from my perspective is the exact opposite of yours, i.e. I think it is a less incisive move that may save time in the long run, rather than a more incisive move that wastes steps.
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2009, 11:03pm by Simon » IP Logged
mdk
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #20 on: Nov 16th, 2009, 12:31am »
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on Nov 15th, 2009, 8:15pm, Simon wrote:
Adanac, the idea behind my support for the move was that if we want the horse and dog to switch sides of the trap, then one of them is going to have to pass above or below the other, making a southward step of the dog (bringing the horse and dog to the same rank) a wasted step (or more than wasted). So ignoring Fritzlein's possible responses, if we eventually want a piece arrangement of say, H on g3, D on e3, R on f2, E on f5, then we save 2 steps by doing Ice's move now instead of taking the cat with the dog now.
 
So this move is somewhat of a gamble that Fritzlein can't complicate the situation enough to make the saved steps wasted. I am not confident of this at all, as it looks like Fritzlein can block the dog crossing with his elephant. But anyway, the point of the move from my perspective is the exact opposite of yours, i.e. I think it is a less incisive move that may save time in the long run, rather than a more incisive move that wastes steps.

 
I'm sorry if you feel that I was attacking your ideas Simon - I definitely support everyone contributing and I certainly don't have all the answers. You have definitely caused me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, to examine the position more closely. Also I do think Ice's move is a good move and I was overly harsh in my criticism of it - I am worried, however, that it allows for greater counterplay. Either way though, we end up in a position where I think we can confidently say we are ahead.  
 
It seems I have miscounted - the move does use fewer steps to position the pieces in the way you suggest. However, I think playing Ice's move allows silver a greater opportunity for counterplay since Ice's move commits 2 steps (or 3 if we capture with the horse) to our next move (since we will want to capture the cat). That only leaves 2 (or 1) steps to react to Fritz's move.  
 
My guess is that either way Fritz plays 25s Md6w Mc6x ed5n ed6s ed5s
 
Also, playing around with the position makes me think that getting a dog to b3 is more important short term than getting the rabbit to f2 though.
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2009, 1:54am by mdk » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #21 on: Nov 17th, 2009, 9:44am »
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I looked at 25g Ef4w Cg4w Dh4w Re2e.  This is like Ice's move with E->e4 instead of E->f5.  I was surprised that I liked it.
 
I always think defensively.  I'm looking at the east where silver has h+rrr which is just like the camel-rabbit support in Fritz's book.  In the west silver should try an e-d attack which is just like the usual e-h attack.  One way to defend both of these is for our E to mind the eastern h while our H threatens taking the western d hostage.  The problem is that our nicely centralized H can still get cut off from the west so the e-d attack can't be prevented.
 
This leaves us with trying a more balanced defense with the H's facing off in the east and the E's and smaller pieces facing off in the west.  That means we want H on g3 instead of our D.  Earlier posts indicate we take now with D->g3 if we want the D to stay there, and we delay the capture if we ultimately want H->g3.  I'm now thinking we want H->g3.  This means we want our E to go west.
 
Here's a possible continuation:
25g Ef4w cg4w Dh4w Re2e
25s Md6w Mc6x ed5n ed6s ed5s
26g He3e Hf3e cf4s cf3x Cd3e
26s rg5w hg6s hg5n Dg4n
27g Ee4n rf5s Ee5e Dg5s
27s cb5w Rb4n dc5s ed4s
28g rf4s rf3x Dg4w Ef5w Ee5w
28s dc4w Cb3e db4s ra4s
29g Ed5w Ec5s Dc2w Cc3s
29s de6s de5s Ce3e de4s
30g Rf2e Cf3s Df4w De4w
30s hg6s hg5s hg4w rh5s
31g Ec4w Rb5e Rc5e Rd5n
31s ca5e cb5e cc5n cc6n
32g Eb4e db3n Db2n Ec4n
 
Feel free to blow holes in this analysis and please think about what our position will be near move 30.  I think we will be doing a real vote this time.  Ideally we could start voting tomorrow if there's no further discussion.
 
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #22 on: Nov 17th, 2009, 11:12am »
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A quick thought:
looking at what moves we could not play after taking cat, I've thought of Ec4 since Silver would block us.
 
So that a natural possibility is  
25g Ef4c4 Re2f2
 
Notice that Silver cannot simultaneously take camel (and keep us from defending it on next turn), defend horse and defend cat.
 
I have not looked further into it.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #23 on: Nov 17th, 2009, 2:26pm »
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Autoreply, but really different thoughts.
 
We have many strategical options (I do not talk about the current move).
We may try to defend symmetrically.
Then either Ron's (or Ice's) suggestion or my previous one.
 
We may also try to keep to defend asymmetrically. As noticed by Ron, it's hard to use our horse efficiently, then.
 
We could play more or less for chasing rabbits and protecting them (a4, b4, g5, h5...)
 
Another option would lean much more toward aggression.
Indeed I think any move by Silver is much slower than by us since we still have a back row. All his rabbits save one have left the last row, so it looks very weakened.
 
We could then play
25g takes cat (Dg3)
25s takes camel Ed4 (otherwise WE have the central elephant and I cannot see what could be dangerous for us.)
26g Ef5 Re2f4
 
Tactically:
The threat de6d6 Ef5e6 Rf5 almost requires 26s Re7f7, otherwise this major defensive rabbit is frozen.
In the lines I've looked at, Fritz cannot afford to pull the b4 rabbit to fifth row, since it becomes a strong secondary threat with our elephant. So that he needs playing ra3, pushing the Rb4 to a4 with dog, before threatening to have a b3 dog. That's slower, especially since if he plays ra3, the c3 trap must be defended.
Our elephant is free to roam on fifth rank, typically going after current dc5 or the c6 trap if Silver's elephant switches side.
 
Anyone with THE right 26s in this line?
« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2009, 3:04pm by Hannoskaj » IP Logged
Simon
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #24 on: Nov 17th, 2009, 3:25pm »
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on Nov 17th, 2009, 9:44am, RonWeasley wrote:
I looked at 25g Ef4w Cg4w Dh4w Re2e.  This is like Ice's move with E->e4 instead of E->f5.  I was surprised that I liked it.

 
I like it too.
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mdk
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #25 on: Nov 17th, 2009, 4:41pm »
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on Nov 17th, 2009, 9:44am, RonWeasley wrote:
I looked at 25g Ef4w Cg4w Dh4w Re2e.  This is like Ice's move with E->e4 instead of E->f5.  I was surprised that I liked it.
 
I always think defensively.  I'm looking at the east where silver has h+rrr which is just like the camel-rabbit support in Fritz's book.  In the west silver should try an e-d attack which is just like the usual e-h attack.  One way to defend both of these is for our E to mind the eastern h while our H threatens taking the western d hostage.  The problem is that our nicely centralized H can still get cut off from the west so the e-d attack can't be prevented.
 
This leaves us with trying a more balanced defense with the H's facing off in the east and the E's and smaller pieces facing off in the west.  That means we want H on g3 instead of our D.  Earlier posts indicate we take now with D->g3 if we want the D to stay there, and we delay the capture if we ultimately want H->g3.  I'm now thinking we want H->g3.  This means we want our E to go west.
 
Here's a possible continuation:
25g Ef4w cg4w Dh4w Re2e
25s Md6w Mc6x ed5n ed6s ed5s
26g He3e Hf3e cf4s cf3x Cd3e
26s rg5w hg6s hg5n Dg4n
27g Ee4n rf5s Ee5e Dg5s
27s cb5w Rb4n dc5s ed4s
28g rf4s rf3x Dg4w Ef5w Ee5w
28s dc4w Cb3e db4s ra4s
29g Ed5w Ec5s Dc2w Cc3s
29s de6s de5s Ce3e de4s
30g Rf2e Cf3s Df4w De4w
30s hg6s hg5s hg4w rh5s
31g Ec4w Rb5e Rc5e Rd5n
31s ca5e cb5e cc5n cc6n
32g Eb4e db3n Db2n Ec4n
 
Feel free to blow holes in this analysis and please think about what our position will be near move 30.  I think we will be doing a real vote this time.  Ideally we could start voting tomorrow if there's no further discussion.
 

 
This looks better to me than Ice's move at first glance - moving the elephant west makes more sense to me too. I don't really think your proposed 26s is a good move for silver though given we seem to have a strong response. I think it would be better to look at lines aiming for a e+d attack of c3 for 26s and 27s. Don't have time to post more now though.
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Simon
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #26 on: Nov 17th, 2009, 5:41pm »
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If we can't afford to move the elephant too far west until the horse is on g3 due to the hrrr threat (which I think may be the case), and if other than that all we have to worry is an attack in the west (as mdk suggests), then I think RonWeasley's move is definitely better than the immediate cat capture since it completes the rotation freeing the elephant sooner.  
 
I think any problem with Ronweasley's move would have to be a vulnerability in the east and so far I don't see a sufficient vulnerability to be a problem.
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #27 on: Nov 18th, 2009, 7:13am »
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Capture the cat.  
 
Silver has at least three rabbits that are exposed. He will only have five pieces left. There is no way he can cover both our traps and still defend his back line.
 
Gold's position is much more compact, with only one exposed rabbit.  
 
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Simon
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #28 on: Nov 18th, 2009, 12:16pm »
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He may have more vulnerable rabbits, but if it comes to a race the big question is who can take over a trap and force the other player to retreat first. It's not clear to me that it's us; those advanced rabbits are an obstacle until we take them, he has a horse in position to defend the east, his pieces are advanced in the west etc. And if we have to retreat to defend in the west we may suddenly be in big trouble in the east, particularly if we will have moved our horse to assist in defending the west.
 
Besides, if we rotate our horse to g3 and free the elephant to counter Fritzlein elephant in the west it looks to me like we are in a good, non-race position. So why race? Those rabbits aren't going to retreat, we can take our time capturing them.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 25
« Reply #29 on: Nov 18th, 2009, 12:36pm »
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Make closing arguments, please.  I will start a vote tomorrow if there are no new compelling ideas.
 
I am still favoring 25g Ef4w Cg4w Dh4w Re2e over 25g cg4s Dh4w cg3w cg3x Dg4s because it leads to the strategic position I prefer more quickly.
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