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   Author  Topic: Move 28  (Read 4877 times)
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #15 on: Jan 11th, 2010, 8:43am »
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Are we ready to vote?  Or shall we try voice vote for Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s?  That's the move I like to occupy the key squares and protect the dog on f4.
 
Count just me as 1 and I'll move it if we get 6.  Those objecting, please make counter offers now.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #16 on: Jan 11th, 2010, 11:49am »
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on Jan 11th, 2010, 8:43am, RonWeasley wrote:
Are we ready to vote?  Or shall we try voice vote for Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s?  That's the move I like to occupy the key squares and protect the dog on f4.
 
Count just me as 1 and I'll move it if we get 6.  Those objecting, please make counter offers now.

 
I can't connect to the gameroom right now to check how much time we have left in reserve:
 
If we have less than 1 week remaining then I'll vote for this proposed move right now.
 
If we have more than 1 week, then I'd prefer to leave the debate open for a few days.  Chessandgo's suggested moves might give us an opportunity to play more aggressively and improve our material advantage.
« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2010, 11:50am by Adanac » IP Logged


Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #17 on: Jan 11th, 2010, 12:27pm »
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I'm not very fond of giving back the rabbit immediately, even if it looks like sure long-term advantage, however small. Even if we keep it for a few more moves, Silver will have to use the time to take it. Meanwhile it is a lock on the queenside.
 
If we want to make more of it, then we have to unfreeze it through b4.
From here, this move comes to mind:
 
28g Cb3w Db2n  Ec4n db4e
 
 
We want to play sequences like Db3n Ec5e Rb5e Db4n Ed5e etc... or even bring the f4 dog on d6 once the horse is secure and locks the kingside on g3. Alternatively, if we can, it is better to use the a3 cat than the b3 dog to unfreeze rabbit.
 
Meanwhile, right now, Silver must also take the pressure on the dog into account, plus vague ideas of frame (either dog or rabbit).
 
For example probably the most violent answer is
28s Ra4e cc3s Dc4s Rb4e
29g Ra1ee Ra2e Ca3n (Hf3e?)
I have trouble finding a convincing answer for Silver. Though the position is complicated, so there might be one.
 
Other tries for Silver:
28s Ed3n Dc4w xx
is slow. Anyhow we always have time for putting our horse on g3 in this case.
 
28s Rh5ss Hg6ws
maybe
29g Hf3e Df4w (idea to d6) Ec5ee
for example (probably far from optimal for Silver)
29s Ed3e rb5e Ca5e Rh6s
30g De4wnn Cc3e
 
The best for Silver might be
28s Ed3nee df4n
Then I have trouble finding a better move than  
29g Cc3e(or s) E takes d Hf3e ***EDIT: there's a better line in my following post***
29s E takes d Eg4
with sharp asymmetric position, with little material, where we are up a cat.
 
Thoughts?
« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2010, 2:04pm by Hannoskaj » IP Logged
Manuel
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Re: Move 28b5
« Reply #18 on: Jan 12th, 2010, 5:41am »
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I actually do not see what is wrong with the move I suggested:
 Cc3s Df4e Dg4s rg5s
Our dog on f4 is brought to safety AND a rabbit is attacked in exchange for the rabbit on b5.
In the west I don't see what attack of silver we should be afraid of; we can always put our dog to b3 later.
 
 
In respons to Hannoskaj: In your move our dog at f4 is in danger.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 28b5
« Reply #19 on: Jan 12th, 2010, 8:19am »
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on Jan 12th, 2010, 5:41am, Manuel wrote:
I actually do not see what is wrong with the move I suggested:
 Cc3s Df4e Dg4s rg5s
Our dog on f4 is brought to safety AND a rabbit is attacked in exchange for the rabbit on b5.
In the west I don't see what attack of silver we should be afraid of; we can always put our dog to b3 later.
 

 
Well, that's an interesting move since it more or less defends b5 for one move, but on the other hand, it really yields the important squares.
On the kingside, it's the horse we would like to see on g3, so that Silver cannot put his (cf (**)).
 
 So how would you continue after:
28s cb3w Db4s Hg6s Rg4e ?
 
If  
29g Ec4we db3n Db2n
the easiest for Silver is taking rabbit, probably with cat, and there are still ideas on the kingside (plus the fact that if the elephant moves, the dog may go to c2), and maybe there is better than this. Anyhow that would be giving up our rabbit.
 
Taking dog hostage seems theoretically bad since there are horses free,
and moreover our pieces would be jammed together
29g Db2s Ec4w db3s Eb4s
(**) 29s Hg5s dg3e Hg4s x (Rh4w)
with risks of having dog quelled and the nearby elephant does not bode well.
 
Otherwise our elephant is tied to c3...
 
Maybe the best would be to continue with the same kind of ideas:
29g Dg3e rh4w Dh3n Hf3e
to be compared with 28g Df4ee rg5s Hf3e
and the comments by Adanac thereon. We have lost one move. Silver even has fun moves like 29s Rg4wwss.
 
 
I am not really convinced.
 
Quote:

In respons to Hannoskaj: In your move our dog at f4 is in danger.

 
Would you please provide lines?  
 
A priori we can stuff it later if need be, there is no immediate threat.
The most urgent are the rabbit b5 and the cases b3 and g3.
 
The only way Silver can immediately slash at dog is by giving up its own.
 
By the way, in that line, I had not written in the previous message that I think we are clearly better if Silver takes dog after
28g Cb3w Db2n  Ec4n db4e  
28s Ed3nee df4n  
29g Cc3e(or s) E takes d Db4n
 
but I am not completely sure we can survive after the dog sacrifice:
29s Rg5ss Ef4e Rg3s
My goal defense is certainly bad, but I find it hard to stop the rabbit if we take time to keep the dog. Typically, the elephant can pull h2, let the Silver rabbit on h2 and go to g1. What do computers say in those positions?
 
 
EDIT: In fact  
30g Dwwn Rh1w  
looks very strong.  
 
I had missed it since I wanted to defend solidly with Re1ee, but with that move, we have a goal threat so Silver does not have time to pull h2. He has to take time defending but we have the initiative and will score first (or have time to bring back elephant and first-row rabbit).
« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2010, 2:29pm by Hannoskaj » IP Logged
Nombril
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Re: Move 28b5
« Reply #20 on: Jan 13th, 2010, 4:09am »
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on Jan 12th, 2010, 8:19am, Hannoskaj wrote:

I think we are clearly better if Silver takes dog after
28g Cb3w Db2n  Ec4n db4e  
28s Ed3nee df4n  
29g Cc3e(or s) E takes d Db4n

 
I think
28s: rg5w hgsss or even Cc3s ed3w Cc2w ec3s would be tough for us.
 
I have been trying to figure out a way to invite a dog trade, but I doubt silver would accept it since he would make our extra cat stronger.  So, I don't think we need to worry about our f4 dog being attacked by the e.
 
What about
 
28s: Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e
 
If silver takes our rabbit with the cat, we frame it.
If silver takes our rabbit with the dog, we advance Db3nnn
 
Although I think silver rather likes our b5 rabbit where it is, since it prevents much movement on that wing.  So we should be expecting responses that don't involve taking the rabbit or attacking Df4 with e.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 28b5
« Reply #21 on: Jan 13th, 2010, 4:43am »
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on Jan 13th, 2010, 4:09am, Nombril wrote:

 
I think
28s: rg5w hgsss or even Cc3s ed3w Cc2w ec3s would be tough for us.
 

 
I was on the brink of mentioning those two moves.
28s Cc3s ed3w Cc2w ec3s  
is easy to deal with:
29g Df4wws Hf3e
 
On the other hand,  
28s: rg5w hgsss  
is very strong and natural,
since it is the place that was left unattended by this 28g  and I do not know why I had not thought of it before. And in fact it's a real nuisance, since what with the wall on the f column and our having moved the elephant further away, we cannot even get the elephant within two steps of the camel. I do not see a satisfying 29g right now.
 
 
 
Quote:

What about
 
28s: Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e

 
I thought that was the favoured move till now. I've just now noticed it was the other dog that was moved. Among the moves that give up Rb5, it is my favourite so far.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #22 on: Jan 13th, 2010, 6:00am »
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We're just about to go into our reserve.  I'm not personally compelled by the arguments for the Ec4n moves.  Of the Cb3w Db2n He3e moves, I still worry about our f4 dog being a target.
 
How about one more day for final arguments and then vote?
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Hippo
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Re: Move 28b5
« Reply #23 on: Jan 13th, 2010, 6:10am »
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on Jan 13th, 2010, 4:09am, Nombril wrote:

 
What about
 
28s: Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e

 
Yes it sounds much better then mine  
28s: Cc3s Cb3e Db2n Hf3e.  
 
If I remember the position well the difference is silver could go with his dog through the trap. Is there a danger with it?
 
Actually I spent more time with WC than with the Mob so ...
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2010, 6:12am by Hippo » IP Logged

Adanac
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #24 on: Jan 13th, 2010, 6:08pm »
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on Jan 13th, 2010, 6:00am, RonWeasley wrote:
We're just about to go into our reserve.  I'm not personally compelled by the arguments for the Ec4n moves.  Of the Cb3w Db2n He3e moves, I still worry about our f4 dog being a target.
 
How about one more day for final arguments and then vote?

 
After reading all the alternative ideas, I still like our original proposal of 28g Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s.  Of course, our rabbit could very well drop on 28s but we can create new threats soon.  
 
If Fritzlein later shifts his elephant east to protect the f3 trap, then we can either try to threaten the western silver dog, or (after it runs away) use our a3 cat to push a silver rabbit east to b4.  Fritzlein's dog will be useless on b4 so I think he's going to have to generate counter-activity in the east, probably by concentrating all his forces in the southeast.  But I like our chances of repelling it.
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2010, 8:36am by Adanac » IP Logged


RonWeasley
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #25 on: Jan 16th, 2010, 5:01pm »
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7 mobsters voted, but only one move could win.  Actually, there was a tie (3-3).  The winners:
 
Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e and Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s.
 
I flipped a galleon, as mobsters do on TV, see?  The winner was
 
Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e.
 
It nearly injured itself celebrating.
 
Notice that our time reserve is getting low.
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Hippo
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #26 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 1:40am »
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I like your coin flip Smiley
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