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   Author  Topic: Fritz's commentary  (Read 13012 times)
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 14
« Reply #90 on: Jun 2nd, 2010, 4:35am »
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on Jun 2nd, 2010, 12:13am, Hippo wrote:
I were not in arimaa comunity at that time ... but ex post ... was the move 14g ending with Ef3 instead Eg4 winning fast?

That's an interesting suggestion.  It looks more accurate than the Mob's actual move, because it forces my elephant to lose time going to d3.  In the actual game my elephant was able to hang out on d4 until forced to head north, so I gained two steps net relative to your suggestion.
 
I was concerned at the time to prevent the Mob from activating its eastern horse, and thrilled to discover on 14s that I could also prevent activation of the the Mob's eastern dog.  I believe that after your suggested move, I would have been forced to give up on containing the dog.  So my time loss would not merely have been academic; it would have forced an immediate positional concession from me.
 
On the other hand, I don't know what you mean when you say your move would be "winning fast".  Is there some forced capture that I'm not seeing here?  
 
Quote:
BTW: Thanks for the comments

I'm glad you are enjoying my comments.  I had fun writing while I was playing, but there were definitely times when it would have been more convenient for me to just move without having to explain my thought process.  Therefore, it will be gratifying if my efforts on this score are of some interest/use to the community.
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Hippo
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #91 on: Jun 2nd, 2010, 6:06am »
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Let me clarify that ... actually the move was suggested in the discussion and lost 3:5 to the move played. Fast has no real meaning here. I just think it constraints your options more. With dog operating on NE and horse on NW it seems to be thought for you.
(If I remember it well I have went through the entire game almost at the same time I start contributing to the mob. I have tried do it move by move before looking to the future. I would not propose the same 13g now, but I would surely give 4th vote for that 14g. It seems to me each plan with Eg4 can be achieved with Ef3 in that position so advocating Ef3 would be easy.)
 
I must agree the power of cooperating mob is big, but sometimes mob drifted almost without contributions. Interesting was how Nombril's deeper study persuaded c&g his intuition is not OK... especially saving the rabbit that goals at the end.
 
I have enjoyed my participation in the Mob at the end of the game as well as going through all the discussion.
« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2010, 6:25am by Hippo » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #92 on: Jun 2nd, 2010, 9:49am »
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on Jun 2nd, 2010, 6:06am, Hippo wrote:
I must agree the power of cooperating mob is big, but sometimes mob drifted almost without contributions. Interesting was how Nombril's deeper study persuaded c&g his intuition is not OK... especially saving the rabbit that goals at the end.

Yes, it was quite clear from reading the comments that chessandgo wasn't just dictating moves to the Mob.  I wasn't beaten up by one strong player or a couple of strong players; I was beaten by cooperation of a team.  It would be hard for me to understand how that could happen if I hadn't been on the inside of it the previous time around.  When cooperation is so effective, it makes me feel good about the future of humanity.  Individually we each can do some pretty stupid things, but collectively we can come a lot closer to perfection.  Smiley
 
Thanks for your comments, Hippo, and for taking the time to read mine.  It makes me feel happy and proud.
« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2010, 9:51am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Nombril
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Re: 29s
« Reply #93 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 3:59am »
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Fritz, thanks for taking the time to record your thoughts, reasons, and predictions.  It made very interesting reading for me.  (Well, at least the opening and when I picked up again at move 28 when I joined the discussion...)
 
I wish I had time to compile a summary of the mob views to intersperse between some of your descriptions.  I found it very intriguing to see the number of times our respective view of the game was completely opposite of each other.  With both sides having the same knowledge of the physical position, Arimaa amazes me by how differently each person interprets what is happening.
 
One example:
 
After 28g, where we had a move selected by flipping a coin:
on Jan 19th, 2010, 7:30am, Adanac wrote:
I was shocked that leaving our dog on f4 was such a popular idea.
with roughly half the mob unhappy with our position, we quickly selected a move that seemed forced. But, you thought:
on Jun 1st, 2010, 7:29am, Fritzlein wrote:
29s
I am shocked that the Mob played 29g E>>EH< in under two days.  Is it so obviously superior to the move I predicted?  I can’t believe they would move so fast unless they had discussed my move 28s before they played 29g, but in that case they must not have considered my 28s to be any threat, and must now consider their position to be very strong.  In short, the Mob is not only disagreeing with my evaluation, but doing so with a confident flair.

 
Ron - I think you most frequently predicted what Fritz would do - did you happen to keep a tally of how often you were correct?
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RonWeasley
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Re: 29s
« Reply #94 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 5:03am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2010, 3:59am, Nombril wrote:

Ron - I think you most frequently predicted what Fritz would do - did you happen to keep a tally of how often you were correct?

Really?  No, I was not keeping any personal statistics.  Or any at all.  I spent lots of energy on this game, mainly making sure each move was getting attention and trying to invite comments.  Then trying to move to a consensus.  I was constantly worried that we would run out of time or that too few players were contributing.  Another thing worrying me was that mobsters might not be following the entire discussion after making a comment.  There was no way to know if a mind-changing critical comment was going unread.
 
One social dynamic that worried me was that potential mobsters might not comment when they disagreed with the value of a proposed line, for fear of exposing their own ignorance to the rest of TheMob.  This seems like natural human nature but is counterproductive in this setting.  TheMob is not a top players' club.  I was most happy to see comments like "how do we respond to ....".  Even if easily refuted, I thought the response illuminated the position significantly.  After a while, I tried to include from my own analysis comments like "I looked at xxxx and it went badly because of yyyy".
 
Adding to my worries was that the number of mobsters voting was decreasing and I'm thinking many people thought if they weren't making comments they shouldn't vote.  Keeping up with this difficult game is hard on anybody, so it's not a big surprise that not many people could do it.  Those who did were rewarded with a good one.  I expect these games only to get harder in the future.
 
I spent so much effort on this that I would like it if somebody else did the moderation on the next game.  I need a rest.
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Hippo
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #95 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 5:36am »
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Yes, we must very thank you for your continous effort. Even after I started contributing (at the end) there were moves I was not participating. Seems none of mobsters was contributing all the time. Except you ... the coordinator.  
 
In a case you were going to 14 days holidays we would lost on time ...  
 
I think if we could play without a moderator at all.
May be there should be account for the Mob where all interested mobsters could log to be able to made the move agreed on sufficient consensus.  
The rules for consensus could be more formal in that case ... for example mobsters should mark their intention to vote in upcomming moves. There should be some expiration time not to block the mob ...
Or the voting system itself could be coded to play move itself?
I expect there would be a lot of problems to solve during the game even when such a system of rules would be defined.
 
On the contrary the enthusiasm with creating the rules video shows there could be working system without a leader.
 
So who knows Smiley
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Fritzlein
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #96 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 6:53am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2010, 5:36am, Hippo wrote:
On the contrary the enthusiasm with creating the rules video shows there could be working system without a leader.

Ha ha!  Exactly the opposite was true.  The rules video would have bogged down and never even been completed if Omar hadn't stepped in and started making decisions.
 
As for the Mob game, I congratulate Ron on his efforts.  I recall from the Kasparov vs. World match that when the World did not have a strong facilitator, the discussion was pretty much a useless flame war.  The only reason the World became a formidable foe to Kasparov was that Irina Krush started facilitating, actually gathering the suggestions and refutations into a comprehensive analysis tree.  The power of the Mob is not in the voting, it is in the discussion.
 
Again, well done Mob & Ron.
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #97 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 9:08am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2010, 6:53am, Fritzlein wrote:

Ha ha!  Exactly the opposite was true.  The rules video would have bogged down and never even been completed if Omar hadn't stepped in and started making decisions.
 
As for the Mob game, I congratulate Ron on his efforts.  I recall from the Kasparov vs. World match that when the World did not have a strong facilitator, the discussion was pretty much a useless flame war.  The only reason the World became a formidable foe to Kasparov was that Irina Krush started facilitating, actually gathering the suggestions and refutations into a comprehensive analysis tree.  The power of the Mob is not in the voting, it is in the discussion.
 
Again, well done Mob & Ron.

Does this mean that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #98 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 11:11am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2010, 9:08am, Arimabuff wrote:
Does this mean that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts?

Yes, according to the Banach-Tarski Paradox.  Wink
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Re: 29s
« Reply #99 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 11:24am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2010, 3:59am, Nombril wrote:
With both sides having the same knowledge of the physical position, Arimaa amazes me by how differently each person interprets what is happening.

Thanks, Nombril.   That's an interesting insight.  I am not sure how much this arises from different perspectives as from blind spots and tunnel vision.  If I could have read the analysis going on in the Mob, I might not have disagreed so much.
 
Chessandgo once said something that didn't strike me as important at the time, but which now comes back to me with particular force.  He wanted to correct the "leak" in his game of examining too few candidate moves.  Normally I'm only made aware of the problem when my opponent makes a strong move I didn't consider, but the privilege of reading the Mob's commentary makes me aware that there were strong moves for me that I didn't consider.
 
Particularly in a postal game, I don't have to worry that looking at my bad moves will give me no time to look at my good moves.  I should loosen up the breadth of my search and worry less about the depth.  The Mob, of course, has the luxury of breadth and depth, because the blind spots of each individual are likely to be corrected by the insight of other individuals.  When I'm playing all by my lonesome, however, I should try somehow to broaden my tunnel vision myself, by disciplining myself to take alternatives seriously.
 
Given that Arimaa has a gargantuan branching factor, I shouldn't be surprised by oversights.  On the contrary, I should expect them, and be amazed that two different people ever independently reach the same conclusion.
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #100 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 11:28am »
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on Jun 3rd, 2010, 6:53am, Fritzlein wrote:

Ha ha!  Exactly the opposite was true.  The rules video would have bogged down and never even been completed if Omar hadn't stepped in and started making decisions.

 
Oh I have not watched carefully ... oh yes starting by selecting megajester for the voiceover. So that mean he finally accepted our will to make him dictator Smiley, but except Arimabufs immediate response I have not notice a problem with it.
 
on Jun 3rd, 2010, 6:53am, Fritzlein wrote:

The only reason the World became a formidable foe to Kasparov was that Irina Krush started facilitating, actually gathering the suggestions and refutations into a comprehensive analysis tree.

I agree the moderator is important, I just think it neednot be fixed and naturally some would arise.
 
on Jun 3rd, 2010, 6:53am, Fritzlein wrote:

The power of the Mob is not in the voting, it is in the discussion.

Of course the pre-voting discussion is the most important.
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2010, 12:08pm by Hippo » IP Logged

Hippo
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Re: 29s
« Reply #101 on: Jun 3rd, 2010, 12:10pm »
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on Jun 3rd, 2010, 11:24am, Fritzlein wrote:

Thanks, Nombril.   That's an interesting insight.  I am not sure how much this arises from different perspectives as from blind spots and tunnel vision.  If I could have read the analysis going on in the Mob, I might not have disagreed so much.
 
Chessandgo once said something that didn't strike me as important at the time, but which now comes back to me with particular force.  He wanted to correct the "leak" in his game of examining too few candidate moves.  Normally I'm only made aware of the problem when my opponent makes a strong move I didn't consider, but the privilege of reading the Mob's commentary makes me aware that there were strong moves for me that I didn't consider.
 
Particularly in a postal game, I don't have to worry that looking at my bad moves will give me no time to look at my good moves.  I should loosen up the breadth of my search and worry less about the depth.  The Mob, of course, has the luxury of breadth and depth, because the blind spots of each individual are likely to be corrected by the insight of other individuals.  When I'm playing all by my lonesome, however, I should try somehow to broaden my tunnel vision myself, by disciplining myself to take alternatives seriously.
 
Given that Arimaa has a gargantuan branching factor, I shouldn't be surprised by oversights.  On the contrary, I should expect them, and be amazed that two different people ever independently reach the same conclusion.  

 
Yes it would be interesting to write down what moves expected by mob from you do you consider better than the move you actually played (If you have time and will).
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #102 on: Jun 5th, 2010, 1:49am »
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Good game Karl!  
 
And wow @ the comments ... I'm going to read them, and give you some feedback as I progess through them. Starting to replay the game, I realized that this game has lasted so long I had absolutely forgotten most of it Smiley
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #103 on: Jun 5th, 2010, 2:06am »
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Today chessandgo commented on my game against clueless that "a horse hostage is worth significantly more than a camel hostage in my opinion, 'under the proper conditions' as you say jdb, basically that gold has an advanced piece (Horse) on the hostage wing that silver's camel cannot mess with within a move or 2".  That describes the type of hostage the Mob could get against me by sacrificing a cat, and since chessandgo rarely comments on games these days, I can't help but wonder whether his comment now is part of a raging debate within the Mob.  Given that a camel hostage is worth slightly more than a cat, getting my horse hostage by their camel must be worth far more than a cat, in chessandgo's opinion.
 
Hmmm, even though these values can heavily depend on the position, I would rather capture a Cat than get a good Horse hostage (rather get a good Horse hostage than a caMel hostage).  
 
Also, assuming that getting some hostage has the same value as capturing some piece, then giving up this piece for this hostage is subpar (since the fight with one piece down will yield less than the original fight).  
 
So no, I think I would have advocated against a cat sac on 6g (did I? Smiley)
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Fritzlein
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Re: Fritz's commentary
« Reply #104 on: Jun 5th, 2010, 6:09am »
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on Jun 5th, 2010, 2:06am, chessandgo wrote:
Hmmm, even though these values can heavily depend on the position, I would rather capture a Cat than get a good Horse hostage (rather get a good Horse hostage than a caMel hostage).

Thanks for clarifying the relative values in your judgment.  I didn't know that you valued a camel hostage less than a cat capture.  I must be old fashioned, because I still value a camel hostage (at least a good one) more than a cat.  It's funny that in the Mob game, a cat capture is exactly what giving up my camel as a hostage eventually cost me.
« Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2010, 6:11am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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