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Topic: 2015 Move 5 (Read 3833 times) |
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #15 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 2:43pm » |
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on Aug 27th, 2015, 9:13am, chessandgo wrote:
Maybe 6s h->f3. Also maybe 5s mf4 Hg4? I don't see a refutation, just a lot of possibilities for silver. |
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mg3 Hf3 allows one step defense with the pull and replace maneuver.
It seems to me mf4 is too ambitious and I would return Ef5 in response.
on Aug 27th, 2015, 12:30pm, SilverMitt wrote:
I think I wouldn't like this after even a simple 5s Ec5 Mg4 response. Our elephant is blocked along the 5th rank and we can forget about pull-and-replace; meanwhile, the silver camel is free. If we flip the b6 horse on 6g, silver can, at the very least, flip the g3 horse in response.
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I would welcome the trade as that leaves mh on one wing while our camel could easily go east and we would have even bigger space advantage in Ha6.
5s ec5 eg4
6g hb4
6s ec4 ha4/b3 mf4 Hg4
is what I would be more afraid
I agree leaving the center with phant looks strange.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #16 on: Aug 28th, 2015, 5:39am » |
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on Aug 27th, 2015, 2:43pm, Hippo wrote:
mg3 Hf3 allows one step defense with the pull and replace maneuver.
It seems to me mf4 is too ambitious and I would return Ef5 in response.
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I meant 5s mg3 Hh3, 6g hb5 Hb6 Ec5 Dd3, 6s hh5sees.
And
5s mg6s mg5s mg4w Hg3n
6g Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e
6s hh5s hh4s hh3w ed4s
looks fine for silver?
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #17 on: Aug 28th, 2015, 5:45am » |
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on Aug 27th, 2015, 12:30pm, SilverMitt wrote:
I am more or less in agreement with the idea of committing our camel west in tandem with the h3/h2 steps, but let me note again that we are not obliged to move it even to c3, particularly if we play the De3 step (I previously suggested g2 as the 4th step). |
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So we're looking at:
5g De2n Rh2n Rh1n Rg1n
5s ed4w Md3n Md4e ec4e
6g De3e Me4s Me3w Md3w
?
As for the Rg1n step, I'm very ambivalent about commiting to the Rg2 Rh2 "rabbit structure". We might lose the g2 square for hostaging purposes, and I don't see an immediate advantage to having g2 occupied. If a possible phalanx on g2 is the idea, playing Cf2e Rf1n when appropriate might be more agreable than Rg1n Rf1e (better goal defense with a light piece on the g-file, better space flexibility wrt hostages on g2 ...).
It's hard to find a good 4th step if we don't move the caMel at least to c3.
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #18 on: Aug 28th, 2015, 6:19pm » |
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Well, I don't think the 4th step is critical. So, we need one of De3/Mc3, and we could play both, of course.
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browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #19 on: Aug 29th, 2015, 3:14pm » |
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I tend to like the g1n step as well, but it's usually most urgent when the elephant doesn't intend to defend the east. It could just be a waste here. I think Md3w is bigger, and the camel might as well go all the way to b3?
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2015, 3:15pm by browni3141 » |
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #20 on: Aug 29th, 2015, 3:46pm » |
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In reading through the discussed possibilities, it occurs to me that we could use an a3 rabbit to aid refutation in some of our moves. I propose something like the following:
a2n Md3w h2n h1n
a2n g1n h2n h1n
The a3 rabbit can unfreeze the camel in case of a pull or flip to c4 while advancing at the same time and threatening to flood c6. I don't favor a De2n step because with the E on e5, a flip to e4 just becomes a 4-for-2 for silver.
I'm unsure which move above I would prefer. The post above stating we may not want to commit a rabbit to g2 makes sense to me. But, not moving the camel costs silver an extra step if he wants to flip, while saving us one. I just don't know what the best 4th step is in that case.
CaMel on b3 does have the advantage of making an immediate threat, whereas c3 or d3 takes another move to come into position. However, patience is often the best course of action.
Thoughts on refuting the suggested moves, or a better 4th step?
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #21 on: Aug 29th, 2015, 3:50pm » |
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Without the De3 step and keeping the camel on d3, we might lose a bit of time if sharp just pushed the camel to e3, trying to cut it off from the west.
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #22 on: Aug 29th, 2015, 4:03pm » |
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In the discussion of not moving the camel on move 4, we decided we were fine with that possibility and moving the camel to c4 in response. It depends what silver can threaten with the remaining two steps. mg6s hh5s threatens a horse hostage if we move our E west; however with the camel on e3 we could easily make it an EMH vs emh in the east instead (or MH vs. mh with EH vs. eh in the west). I'm sure there are better silver uses of those two steps though.
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #23 on: Aug 29th, 2015, 4:31pm » |
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We could be fine with it strategically, but it still inconveniences us, while the other 4th steps are just the slightest conceivable gains.
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #24 on: Aug 29th, 2015, 5:26pm » |
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So, what are your thoughts on
a2n Md3w h2n h1n as compared to
Md3ww h2n h1n
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #25 on: Aug 29th, 2015, 7:34pm » |
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I thought that De2n also had the idea of protecting f3. Silver will somewhen attack in the east and presumably place his camel on g3. So by playing De2n we already defend that and ensure that we got 4 steps next move (while its a sort of move we would need to play anyway, if silver plays mg3 or anything similar.
So I see nothing wrong with that step whereas the Ra2n while it might help in some lines doesn't seem to guarantee to help somewhen.
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browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #26 on: Aug 30th, 2015, 1:00am » |
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on Aug 29th, 2015, 3:46pm, half_integer wrote:In reading through the discussed possibilities, it occurs to me that we could use an a3 rabbit to aid refutation in some of our moves. I propose something like the following:
a2n Md3w h2n h1n
a2n g1n h2n h1n
The a3 rabbit can unfreeze the camel in case of a pull or flip to c4 while advancing at the same time and threatening to flood c6. I don't favor a De2n step because with the E on e5, a flip to e4 just becomes a 4-for-2 for silver.
Thoughts on refuting the suggested moves, or a better 4th step? |
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The camel getting pulled to c4 is unlikely to ever be a problem for us. We can always free it with c2n c1n c4w or d2nn c4w and silver has only wasted time while we've improved our position.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #27 on: Aug 31st, 2015, 6:15am » |
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Oops, I was not at home and missed voting ... is poll started regularly or one should check mail frequently?
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #28 on: Aug 31st, 2015, 11:30am » |
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Hippo, sorry to hear that. 
The poll was open for about 2 days. But someone please remind me for next move to create a list of candidates 1 day before the poll starts so that people can see the poll coming and also tell if they think some move should be included.
Link to poll results: http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_1e95a506fad06f40
I will later today write the results also in this thread, but right now I am a bit busy.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2015, 11:36am by deep_blue » |
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #29 on: Oct 10th, 2015, 5:22am » |
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Detailed vote report:
Authorized voters: 24
Actual votes cast: 9
1. 5g Md3w Mc3w Rh2n Rh1n (Mb3 h1-h3)
2. 5g Md3w Rh2n Rh1n De2n (Mc3 h1-h3 De3)
tied 3. 5g Ee5w Ed5w Md3w Mc3w (Ec5 Mb3)
tied 3. 5g De2n Rh2n Rh1n Rg1n (h1-h3 Rg2 De3)
5. 5g Ee5w Ed5w Rh2n Rh1n (Ec5 h1-h3)
6. 5g Ee5w Ed5w De2n Rh2n (Ec5 Rh3 De3)
7. 5g Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Md3w (Eb5 Mc3)
| 1. | 2. | 3. | 4. | 5. | 6. | 7. | | | 1. | - | 6 | 8 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 9 | | | 2. | 2 | - | 6 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 8 | | | 3 | 1 | 2 | - | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | | | 4. | 0 | 0 | 4 | - | 4 | 4 | 5 | | | 5. | 0 | 2 | 4 | 3 | - | 4 | 6 | | | 6. | 1 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 2 | - | 4 | | | 7. | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 2 | - |
Voting rights had:
Algorias, arimaa_master, aurelian, browni3141, chessandgo, clyring, CraggyCornmeal, DeathCure, deep_blue, half_integer, Harren, harvestsnow, Hippo, Hufflepup, ikalyoncu, Knedlik, PerkofBR, phairland, RonWeasley, Samraku, SilverMitt, Skarn, supersamu, Therin8, Hippo.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2015, 5:29am by deep_blue » |
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