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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 2
        
(Message started by: aaaa on Dec 10th, 2008, 4:31pm)
Title: Move 2
Post by aaaa on Dec 10th, 2008, 4:31pm
Fritzlein plays:

Code:
1s ee7 mg7 hd7 de8 cg8 hb7 dd8 cc7 ra7 rf7 rh7 ra8 rb8 rc8 rf8 rh8
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 10th, 2008, 6:14pm
Elephant nnne to e5 perhaps? The short-term idea is to get in his elephant's way and the long-term idea is to threaten to pull either his camel or his rabbits in the north east.

Update: Here are two games Fritzlein recently played as silver against strong players.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=83795&s=b

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=85925&s=b

Both of the above games have gold sending elephant north thrice and advancing the elephant-side horse once.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by arimaa_master on Dec 11th, 2008, 12:53am

on 12/10/08 at 18:14:42, warren wrote:
Elephant nnne to e5 perhaps? The short-term idea is to get in his elephant's way and the long-term idea is to threaten to pull either his camel or his rabbits in the north east.

Update: Here are two games Fritzlein recently played as silver against strong players.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=83795&s=b

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=85925&s=b

Both of the above games have gold sending elephant north thrice and advancing the elephant-side horse once.


I support E to e5 move.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 11th, 2008, 3:16am
I think we need to decide right now on one or several plans for the next moves, before playing "commiting" moves like the above proposal. If our Elephant is likely to go to the western side to support a Horse advance for instance, then playing an Ee step will just lose two steps. So we must make very clear that we will bring our Elephant to the eastern side before playing such a step.

Here is how I evaluate such a position with the decentralized camel for silver:

- We want to advance a Horse on western side, be it for rabbit pulling or E+H (+M+R...) attack, as silver's camel will never threaten it.
- Silver wants his Elephant on western side. I possibly don't understand Karl's motivations for playing this strategy as I believe gold has a significant advantage here, but the only reason I can find to play it as silver is the following: silver wants to get some kind of "deadlock" on western side, tying both phants there, and then use his free camel on the other wing. This will be especially effective if we have our caMel on western side while not achieving much.
- In any case, if we advance our Horse towards a6/b5/b6, it will probably need Elephant support as silver's elephant will be there.

So with these ideas, playing an Ee step will just result in a two step loss for gold, while silver will not lose any step due to our Ee5 as he doesn't want his elephant on e-file but rather on d, c or b-file.

A completely different view (which I guess you both support, arimaa_master and warren) would be to bring our Elephant on eastern side to prevent silver's camel from moving, and possibly pull the h7 rabbit if we can.

I wholeheartedly support the first plan, as it makes the best use imo of silver's piece imbalance, and I'm not a big fan of the second plan, as even if we manage to pull a rabbit all the way to pinning it on f3, then silver's camel on g-file will become excellently placed, ready to mess with our pinning Hg3, and not fearing to be taken hostage on this wing as there is already the pinned rf3.

In any case, I think we absolutely need to agree on a plan right now, and play our first moves in consequence. The worst thing would be to play one or two moves first, and then decide on a plan which might be incompatible with our first moves, like deciding on E to e5 now and then on plan 1, or conversely playing some Ew and Hb2nn... on moves 2 and 3 and then going for plan 2.

If we don't like to decide on a plan right now, the "non-commiting" steps (those which will likely be useful for any plan we devise in the future) are Ennn, Hb2n, and possibly Hg3n. Possibly also De1n, and finally maybe (maybe maybe) Me2n.

I would root for the standard Ennn Hb2n, as it's non-commiting, and especially as it is the quicker way to go for an E+H according to plan 1.

If we decide for plan 2, then this move or E to e5 are of equivalent strength in my view.

I am unable to find a third plan, but looking forward to read one :)

Jean
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 11th, 2008, 3:47am

on 12/10/08 at 18:14:42, warren wrote:
Update: Here are two games Fritzlein recently played as silver against strong players.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=83795&s=b

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=85925&s=b

Both of the above games have gold sending elephant north thrice and advancing the elephant-side horse once.


Hey, thanks for the links. As far as first game is concerned, 4w is silly, should be 4w Hh6n rh7n Ee5e De1n probably, with a very cute position for gold to my taste, or in any case a move not involving Md2n.

For the second game, maybe the fact that we have Cats behind traps and that Karl put a cat on c7 would indicate that he doesn't plan to answer Ennn Hb2n by essss, as he did in Ron's game, as we could play En Hb3nnn now.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by woh on Dec 11th, 2008, 3:54am

on 12/11/08 at 03:16:43, chessandgo wrote:
I would root for the standard Ennn Hb2n, as it's non-commiting, and especially as it is the quicker way to go for an E+H according to plan 1.


I am all in favor for this move.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by arimaa_master on Dec 11th, 2008, 5:08am

on 12/11/08 at 03:16:43, chessandgo wrote:
I think we need to decide right now on one or several plans for the next moves, before playing "commiting" moves like the above proposal. If our Elephant is likely to go to the western side to support a Horse advance for instance, then playing an Ee step will just lose two steps. So we must make very clear that we will bring our Elephant to the eastern side before playing such a step.

Here is how I evaluate such a position with the decentralized camel for silver:

- We want to advance a Horse on western side, be it for rabbit pulling or E+H (+M+R...) attack, as silver's camel will never threaten it.
- Silver wants his Elephant on western side. I possibly don't understand Karl's motivations for playing this strategy as I believe gold has a significant advantage here, but the only reason I can find to play it as silver is the following: silver wants to get some kind of "deadlock" on western side, tying both phants there, and then use his free camel on the other wing. This will be especially effective if we have our caMel on western side while not achieving much.
- In any case, if we advance our Horse towards a6/b5/b6, it will probably need Elephant support as silver's elephant will be there.

So with these ideas, playing an Ee step will just result in a two step loss for gold, while silver will not lose any step due to our Ee5 as he doesn't want his elephant on e-file but rather on d, c or b-file.

A completely different view (which I guess you both support, arimaa_master and aaaa) would be to bring our Elephant on eastern side to prevent silver's camel from moving, and possibly pull the h7 rabbit if we can.

I wholeheartedly support the first plan, as it makes the best use imo of silver's piece imbalance, and I'm not a big fan of the second plan, as even if we manage to pull a rabbit all the way to pinning it on f3, then silver's camel on g-file will become excellently placed, ready to mess with our pinning Hg3, and not fearing to be taken hostage on this wing as there is already the pinned rf3.

In any case, I think we absolutely need to agree on a plan right now, and play our first moves in consequence. The worst thing would be to play one or two moves first, and then decide on a plan which might be incompatible with our first moves, like deciding on E to e5 now and then on plan 1, or conversely playing some Ew and Hb2nn... on moves 2 and 3 and then going for plan 2.

If we don't like to decide on a plan right now, the "non-commiting" steps (those which will likely be useful for any plan we devise in the future) are Ennn, Hb2n, and possibly Hg3n. Possibly also De1n, and finally maybe (maybe maybe) Me2n.

I would root for the standard Ennn Hb2n, as it's non-commiting, and especially as it is the quicker way to go for an E+H according to plan 1.

If we decide for plan 2, then this move or E to e5 are of equivalent strength in my view.

I am unable to find a third plan, but looking forward to read one :)

Jean


Wow Jean, very nice explanation and very appreciated.
You have definitely much more strategy understanding than me. You clearly convinced me for the first plan.

So I think now that Ennn Hb2n would be just fine.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 11th, 2008, 6:10am
Fritzlein chose Slytherin silver.  Coincidence?  I think not.  I prefer Gryffindor gold.

I would go for the E->d5, H->b3 move too because of its flexibility.  I also like using our E to cut off the silver m from one side of the board.  I agree that we want to work to a plan.  In the opening, we want several viable plans, since the opponent usually can stop any specific plan.  I personally have more success with a plan that pulls things to my traps, rather than controlling opponents traps, but most good players like the opposite.  As C&G notes, this move supports both.  Note that in the second game warren references I lost the opening, but I think my weak moves happened later than move 2.

I think Fritzlein is expecting this move.  That's OK with me.  When things are even, often the expected move is the best.  One of silver's response steps will be h->b6.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Adanac on Dec 11th, 2008, 7:00am

on 12/11/08 at 06:10:10, RonWeasley wrote:
I would go for the E->d5, H->b3 move too because of its flexibility.  I also like using our E to cut off the silver m from one side of the board.  I agree that we want to work to a plan.  In the opening, we want several viable plans, since the opponent usually can stop any specific plan.  I personally have more success with a plan that pulls things to my traps, rather than controlling opponents traps, but most good players like the opposite.  As C&G notes, this move supports both.  Note that in the second game warren references I lost the opening, but I think my weak moves happened later than move 2.


I also like Hb3n followed by Ed2nnn.  I agree with Chessandgo that an attack on the northwest is a logical response to a silver camel on g7 and the proposed move is simple and strong.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by The_Jeh on Dec 11th, 2008, 10:51am
If you want a discussion from Fritz's own mouth of what his ideas are with this unbalanced setup, check this chatroom archive from August 5, 2008:

Fritzlein By the way, I currently believe that Silver has the advantage. I'm having enough success with my unbalanced setups that I think they are not only sound, but advantageous
2008-08-05 01:02:40 The_Jeh Interesting.
2008-08-05 01:03:02 The_Jeh So you think that Gold's first move is not enough steps to prepare for Silver's setup?
2008-08-05 01:03:22 Fritzlein Yes. Although I am far from sure
2008-08-05 01:03:50 Fritzlein Think how many steps of positioning it represents to set down your camels and horses anywhere
2008-08-05 01:04:15 The_Jeh I don't know. I use your setup regardless of what the other player uses, and it seems all right.
2008-08-05 01:04:23 The_Jeh With gold, too.
2008-08-05 01:04:40 Fritzlein The "ideal" reaction of Gold to Silver's setup might require eight steps of repositioning
2008-08-05 01:05:18 The_Jeh Okay, if I use the Fritz setup as gold, what is Silver's best setup?
2008-08-05 01:05:50 Fritzlein The Fritz setup has balanced horses and EM in the middle?
2008-08-05 01:06:36 The_Jeh The Fritz setup/Jeh variation has EM in the middle, dogs behind the EM, and cats behind the horses positioned at b2 and g2.
2008-08-05 01:06:51 Fritzlein Your front row looks like RHREMRHR in the front?
2008-08-05 01:07:19 The_Jeh Yes, or with the E and M switched.
2008-08-05 01:07:27 Fritzlein Then my front row will be rhrhermr
2008-08-05 01:08:11 Fritzlein As Silver I am now responding to a balanced setup with an inbalanced one
2008-08-05 01:08:56 The_Jeh Your M is on my camelside?
2008-08-05 01:09:07 Fritzlein correct
2008-08-05 01:09:44 The_Jeh I don't understand how your setup can take advantage of mine...
2008-08-05 01:10:08 The_Jeh My first move is the standard E three forward and elephant's horse up one.
2008-08-05 01:11:02 Fritzlein Check out my postal mixer game with arimaa_master where I was silver and he was gold
2008-08-05 01:11:28 The_Jeh Okay. I hope my gameviewer works.
2008-08-05 01:11:34 Fritzlein That will give you an idea what I am up to.
2008-08-05 01:12:59 Fritzlein Or my recent game with Tuks, although that had a tactical resolution of the opening rather than a strategic one.
2008-08-05 01:13:02 The_Jeh Ackkk... I'm going to have to switch to V1 to view it.
2008-08-05 01:13:31 Fritzlein too bad
2008-08-05 01:14:40 The_Jeh Okay, I'm there.
2008-08-05 01:15:37 The_Jeh Now wait, he didn't use the setup I would have, for starters.
2008-08-05 01:16:19 Fritzlein Well, if you want to know how I will respond to specific moves, we will have to play a game
2008-08-05 01:16:27 Fritzlein The point is the strategy
2008-08-05 01:16:36 The_Jeh I think I get the drift of your logic.
2008-08-05 01:16:57 Fritzlein He wanted to attack my camel with his elephant, but my flank rabbits keep it safe
2008-08-05 01:17:05 The_Jeh You respond to that standard move by bringing your elephant straight out to threaten the trap where the horse was unadvanced.
2008-08-05 01:17:20 Fritzlein Or not
2008-08-05 01:17:38 Fritzlein It's the role of my flank camel I want to emphasize
2008-08-05 01:17:42 The_Jeh Game 77932?
2008-08-05 01:18:02 Fritzlein The flank camel is what I get as Silver that you don't get as Gold
2008-08-05 01:18:19 Fritzlein Yes, that game
2008-08-05 01:18:38 Fritzlein My elephant forward four was a tactic, not a strategy
2008-08-05 01:19:01 The_Jeh Okay.
2008-08-05 01:19:04 Fritzlein If he had rabbits behind his traps, I wouldn't be able to do it
2008-08-05 01:19:49 Fritzlein The strategy is that I put my camel in the west, but my elephant force his elephant to operate in the east.
2008-08-05 01:19:53 The_Jeh So you advance your flank rabbits to retreat the camel.
2008-08-05 01:19:58 Fritzlein Yes
2008-08-05 01:20:29 Fritzlein Now he could use his elephant to attack my advanced rabbits, but I'll just let him take a rabbit in the west while I take his horse in the east
2008-08-05 01:20:57 Fritzlein (Nice win over OpFor, by the way)
2008-08-05 01:21:10 The_Jeh I would not have moved my camel to the side opposite yours in the first place.
2008-08-05 01:21:14 The_Jeh Thank you.
2008-08-05 01:22:19 Fritzlein You would move your camel to the same wing as mine?
2008-08-05 01:22:37 The_Jeh Certainly.
2008-08-05 01:22:42 Fritzlein Great, then I'll have EHH vs. EH in the east.
2008-08-05 01:23:04 Fritzlein Since your camel is gone, I can attack with EH and no fear
2008-08-05 01:23:22 Fritzlein I'll pull your H too
2008-08-05 01:23:27 The_Jeh What if I attacked with EH on 3w?
2008-08-05 01:23:35 Fritzlein East or west?
2008-08-05 01:24:03 The_Jeh East.
2008-08-05 01:24:23 Fritzlein I have two horses defending there. What do I have to fear?
2008-08-05 01:24:49 Fritzlein As I said, if you have rabbits behind your traps, I won't open with elephant forward four.
2008-08-05 01:25:00 Fritzlein That tactic works only when I can win material
2008-08-05 01:25:03 The_Jeh My elephant would be on e6, and my horse on g6.
2008-08-05 01:25:17 The_Jeh Okay, gotcha.
2008-08-05 01:25:18 Fritzlein otherwise I'll put my horse on g6 on move 2b
2008-08-05 01:25:51 Fritzlein Strategically your EH attack where I have EHH to defend is going nowhere
2008-08-05 01:26:14 Fritzlein I welcome it. I will take your H hostage with my E and threaten to frame it
2008-08-05 01:26:41 Fritzlein I will take you  H hostage with my e and threaten to frame it.
2008-08-05 01:26:57 The_Jeh I was thinking with you opening forward four.
2008-08-05 01:27:06 Fritzlein Sure
2008-08-05 01:27:20 The_Jeh But still...
2008-08-05 01:27:41 Fritzlein Anyway, strategically, it will be my ehh against your EH in the east. Wouldn't you expect that battle to favor me?
2008-08-05 01:28:20 The_Jeh Because I can't attack with MH against M in the west?
2008-08-05 01:28:21 Fritzlein I can attack your home trap with one horse while having the other to defend mine against counter-attack
2008-08-05 01:28:59 Fritzlein Oh, you want to advance your M  in the west? Then, I confess, my elephant will have to come back and step on you
2008-08-05 01:29:52 The_Jeh Now, now...
2008-08-05 01:29:56 Fritzlein Let us suppose that scenario is equal.
2008-08-05 01:30:29 Fritzlein If nothing else, you had to waste the tempo of your first move to get your camel over to the side that mine started on.
2008-08-05 01:30:54 Fritzlein My setup was worth tempi
2008-08-05 01:31:35 The_Jeh My camel is on the side that yours is even if it is in the center.
2008-08-05 01:32:07 Fritzlein But I will claim that the situation is not equal, because both of my horses are on the wing opposite your camel, whereas only one of your horses is far away from my camel
2008-08-05 01:32:31 Fritzlein You talked about attacking with your camel; hardly possible if it is in the center
2008-08-05 01:33:04 The_Jeh I was just positing it.
2008-08-05 01:33:14 Fritzlein You can defend with your camel in the center all day: I don't care because I'm attacking the east
2008-08-05 01:34:04 The_Jeh So why can't I retreat my elephant and take your attacking horse hostage?
2008-08-05 01:34:16 The_Jeh If you said you were leaving one on defense.
2008-08-05 01:34:29 Fritzlein I don't care if you take my attacking horse hostage with your elephant if you camel is on the other wing
2008-08-05 01:35:25 The_Jeh I see.
2008-08-05 01:35:28 Fritzlein You don't have the means to frame it in the east without your camel to help
2008-08-05 01:35:50 Fritzlein Meanwhile I _do_ have the means to frame your horse in the east with my EHH
2008-08-05 01:36:11 Fritzlein and if I get the frame, woe is you
2008-08-05 01:36:56 Fritzlein As in the game against arimaa_master, I'm already set up to rotate out my elephant, leaving me in control of both sides of the board
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Adanac on Dec 11th, 2008, 12:40pm
Thanks for posting the discussion Jeh.  So Karl believes that he has the advantage because his 2 horses will neutralize the E+H attack, eh?  We'll ask him how he feels when our camel joins the fun  ;)

I still agree with the Hb3n as a 4th step for Move #2 regardless of whether or not we're planning the E+H.  It's a strong, flexible move that hasn't yet committed us to any plan.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 11th, 2008, 1:00pm
In my postal against Fritz, I started by trying to get one of his horses to stick to my central M so I could pull it back.  He foiled this and pulled my H into his two horses and e.  I converted this into an E+H but his two horses kept my H from doing anything.  I tried to use my M to get one of those horses out of there, but ended up getting my M stuck instead.

The point is that with better tactics from TheMob, pulling back one of the horses to our central M might become one of our alternate plans, or a tactical point in our E+H attack on c6.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by jdb on Dec 11th, 2008, 1:20pm

Quote:
2008-08-05 01:19:49 Fritzlein The strategy is that I put my camel in the west, but my elephant force his elephant to operate in the east.



Quote:
- Silver wants his Elephant on western side. I possibly don't understand Karl's motivations for playing this strategy as I believe gold has a significant advantage here, but the only reason I can find to play it as silver is the following: silver wants to get some kind of "deadlock" on western side, tying both phants there, and then use his free camel on the other wing. This will be especially effective if we have our caMel on western side while not achieving much.


I reviewed some of Fritz's games where he placed the M on the wing. I think chessandgo is correct in thinking that silver is aiming to deadlock the E's on the western side of the board. The cat on c7 (instead of a rabbit) indicates silver is willing to defend the c6 trap to allow his M to move about on the other wing. In both the posted games, watch how fritz's camel hides until the E's are committed then it suddenly pops its head out.

Is there a plan that doesn't involve committing our elephant?
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by UruramTururam on Dec 11th, 2008, 2:06pm
For now I'm for E-nnn Hb-n.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by tize on Dec 11th, 2008, 3:44pm
How about Enn Hbn Hgn. Is that to passive? It's a move I use occasionally, it's a non-commited move that shouldn't waste to many steps.

Of course it doesn't threaten a E+H attack...
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by jdb on Dec 11th, 2008, 4:25pm
With regards to plan 2, Ennne,

The rabbit on f7 makes it harder for silver's camel to run from the elephant, into the middle. What happens if we simply go after his camel? Even if his camel does run away, there are no heavy pieces defending the f6 trap and once again the f7 rabbit is blocking support arriving from the other side of the board.

Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Bildstein on Dec 11th, 2008, 5:57pm
I agree with Chessandgo that we need a strategy. I fully liked the idea of Ennn Hb2n, but then reading The_Jeh's quote of Fritzlein, part of the idea of Fritzlein's setup seems to be that an E+H attack on the west side won't be effective because silver has E+H+H there. Now I am concerned. I don't believe there's much, if anything, to be gained there.

Still, I am convinced about the tempo losing issues with Ennne.

Ennn Hb2n might still be okay. In a sense, it's more a defensive move than an attacking move, in that it gives our elephant mobility while defending the trap that's probably under the most pressure at the moment.

But if anyone can think of a specific plan to deal with silver's setup and Fritzlein's strategy as set out in The_Jeh's post, please do, and post here :)

Otherwise I can see us falling in to a defensive game, in the absence of a plan we can execute quickly enough. In fact I wonder if that's what Fritzlein expects? Or is he more expecting us to commit to an attack that won't work?
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 11th, 2008, 6:01pm

on 12/11/08 at 16:25:14, jdb wrote:
With regards to plan 2, Ennne,

The rabbit on f7 makes it harder for silver's camel to run from the elephant, into the middle. What happens if we simply go after his camel? Even if his camel does run away, there are no heavy pieces defending the f6 trap and once again the f7 rabbit is blocking support arriving from the other side of the board.


Chessandgo said

"even if we manage to pull a rabbit all the way to pinning it on f3, then silver's camel on g-file will become excellently placed, ready to mess with our pinning Hg3, and not fearing to be taken hostage on this wing as there is already the pinned rf3."

If Chessandgo is correct when he says pulling the h7 rabbit wouldn't help us, then sending our elephant east to threaten his camel at this point seems like a bad idea.

Update: here's the continuation if things go analogously to game 83795 but with C&G's corrected 4w:

2w Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Hb2n
2b hb7s ee7s ee6s de8s
3w Hb3n Hb4n Hb5w Ha5n
3b ee5s ee4w rh7s rh8s
4w Dd1n Ha6s ra7s Ed5w

In the resulting position he can take our horse hostage, but that doesn't seem to help him any. Our threat against his a6 rabbit puts us up a bit I think.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 12th, 2008, 1:28am
tize,

I think Enn Hb2n Hg2n is perfectly fine, there is just one very (very) small drawback imo: with silver's m on g7 and no silver horse anywhere near getting to g3 if we don't occupy it first, there might be a tiny chance that we don't want our Horse on g3 in the future, in the prospect of a e-E deadlock on the west while silver's camel attacks the west. But this is possibly no concern at all.

jdb: I don't get what you mean. His camel is not "running away" not matter where we put our Elephant, as far as I can understand it will stay on g7 if our Phant is threatening. Indeed the rf7 might be target, if we go for a rabbitpull in the east it might be easier to threaten this f7 rabbit than the h7 one.

warren: I'm possibly wrong in saying that we prefer by far pulling a rabbit on his non-camel wing rather than on his camel wing. This is my understanding, but others might think differently.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 12th, 2008, 1:45am
What we absolutely have to avoid, I think, is a position like 12b in Ron's linked game and 12b in my linked game (funny that we both fell for the same trick at the same move :)), even if silver's phant is on g4/b4 instead of f5/c5.

Note that we both could have avoided it quite simply:
In my game, 12w Ee5w Mg3n x x for instance, or, even better, pull that d**n rh7 to h6 much sooner.
In Ron's game it's a bit tougher, as silver's horse is activated while gold's is not, possibly just 12b E to b5 to get an ehhEH deadlock and cross towards eastern wing with the caMel was the simplest way to avoid that things turn bad and get a pretty equal and eventless game.

In any case, if we get a pull of the ra7 to a6 (which we probably can indeed if we want to), our a-file horse should not be threatened as easily as it was on both games.

In the event that we indeed advance a Horse on western wing but don't want to pull rabbits, just swarm with EHM (which, knowing Adanac's style, will get the support of at least one guy :)) we will have to be a bit careful for such a trick.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 12th, 2008, 5:52am

on 12/11/08 at 06:10:10, RonWeasley wrote:
 I personally have more success with a plan that pulls things to my traps, rather than controlling opponents trap


If "things" are pieces, then it's quite often undoable unless the opponent cooperates by not helping them back with the elephant (like Fritzl did in Ron's linked game, when he decides to let gold drag the horse by not helping it back with the phant on 7b). This said, we might also try to mix this idea with jdb's idea (say, call it plan 3 :)), bring our Elephant around e6, planning to push the rf7 to f6 if no piece stay on e7, to flip a piece staying on e7 (which is no problem for silver, as he can always unfreeze it and get it with his elephant, but this means his elephant has to remain centered), and profit from some kind of "elephants deadlocked in the center" to drag the ra7 toward c3 with our b-horse. This involves keeping our camel ready to go to western wing so that silver's horse can't invade it while our H is gone, and this means that silver's phant might need to be tied pretty strongly to the center so that this plan be successful. Basically, I don't like this plan as much as plan 1 which seems more direct and less dangerous (less risk of getting e+h'd around c3), but that would strike me as sensible.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by jdb on Dec 12th, 2008, 7:04am

on 12/12/08 at 01:28:56, chessandgo wrote:
tize,
jdb: I don't get what you mean. His camel is not "running away" not matter where we put our Elephant, as far as I can understand it will stay on g7 if our Phant is threatening. Indeed the rf7 might be target, if we go for a rabbitpull in the east it might be easier to threaten this f7 rabbit than the h7 one.


I will try and do a better job explaining, this time.   :)

Silver has used an asymmetrical setup. He has his camel on (our) eastern wing. Based on previous games, silver wants to get both elephants committed in the west, and use his camel in the east. The idea of going after silver's camel is designed to prevent silver's plan.

Because of the rabbit on f7, it is difficult for silver's camel to slip into the middle. I agree that the camel will most likely stay put on g7. If gold's elephant goes to the g file, silver will need to use his elephant to block gold from placing the camel on the h file and threatening to push it up the board. Once silver's elephant has been committed to the east, gold's b2 horse can activate more safely in the west.

The main idea of going after the camel is not trying to drag a rabbit in the east. Its about keeping silver's elephant away from the west. In short, silver wants the elephants committed in the west, so we should try and get them committed in the east.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 12th, 2008, 8:30am

on 12/12/08 at 07:04:41, jdb wrote:
The main idea of going after the camel is not trying to drag a rabbit in the east. Its about keeping silver's elephant away from the west. In short, silver wants the elephants committed in the west, so we should try and get them committed in the east.

Can you post a continuation demonstrating how this plan might work out?
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 12th, 2008, 9:31am
ok jdb, now I understand. This said, playing E to g6 to flip the camel to g5 or h6 next is almost impossible imo, as in the meantime silver's phant is likely to have time to capture a piece. At worst, silver might play rf7w mg7w when we play E on g6, but it's very unlikely that he needs to as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by jdb on Dec 12th, 2008, 11:17am

on 12/12/08 at 08:30:56, warren wrote:
Can you post a continuation demonstrating how this plan might work out?


This game is not exactly on point, but it does show a possible result of going after the camel.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=88595&s=w
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 12th, 2008, 2:17pm

on 12/12/08 at 11:17:59, jdb wrote:
This game is not exactly on point, but it does show a possible result of going after the camel.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=88595&s=w


Very interesting. I guess my last post was possibly completely wrong.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 12th, 2008, 8:03pm

on 12/12/08 at 11:17:59, jdb wrote:
This game is not exactly on point, but it does show a possible result of going after the camel.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=88595&s=w

This may be a bit off topic, but I'm surprised gold lost after getting the camel frame on move 10. The strategic cause of the loss seems to be the fact that silver either controlled or partly controlled all of the traps. Could gold have won after move 10 if he'd played more aggressively or was he already too constrained?
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 13th, 2008, 9:55am

on 12/12/08 at 11:17:59, jdb wrote:
This game is not exactly on point, but it does show a possible result of going after the camel.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=88595&s=w

In that game gold pushed his elephant-side horse on the second (real) move (i.e. move 3w). We could achieve the same net effect of of those first two moves by pushing our phant three squares north and phant's horse one square on the first move (2w) and then chase the camel on the second move (3w) if we decide to go that way.

So as C&G said, it seems that if we choose plan 2, both moves are equally good and if we choose plan 1 the horse-push is better. So even if we were sure we wanted to choose plan 2, the non-committing move would be better since it would force Fritzlein to defend against both the elephant-horse threat and the camel-chasing threat.

I therefore support Ennn Hbn. There's no need to move immediately since our reserve is full, but I think we should aim to move before we start depleting our reserve 4 days from now.

P.S. If the setup move were called "move 0" things would be a lot more natural. For example, the second move that involves moving pieces would be called "move 2" rather than "move 3" as it is now. Arimaa is new enough that this change could probably be made safely.

Update: this post is wrong because our elephant cannot move through his. See my post at the top of page 3.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 13th, 2008, 2:48pm

on 12/12/08 at 11:17:59, jdb wrote:
This game is not exactly on point, but it does show a possible result of going after the camel.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=88595&s=w



This is a very interesting game you're linking, jdb. I'm not a big fan of 2b, cg8s does not sound as pressing as ed6e for instance, and obviously 3b/4b lose 2 steps for free. But anyway, after 4b you have a very significant egde imo. Not absolutely sure how this would compare to the edge I imagine we should have after Ennn H to a6 on 2w/3w, I guess it depends on the relative value of a rabbit pull on the camel side and on the non-camel side. But if we are guaranteed to obtain the position of your game after 4b (up to c/r and D/R inversions from move 2), I would be rooting for this sequence, no matter how much I like the prospect of advancing a Horse on a non-camel wing. After 5w Md2e ra4s Ea5s Hb2n for instance, I can't see how silver can do anything but let us get an early rabbit frame on c3 besides short term tactics like 5b e to b4 which should not prevent us from getting a nice frame eventually.

Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 14th, 2008, 9:24am
I had the chance to try jbd's plan today in a game:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=91410&s=b

I hope you guys don't mind. Not sure about the midgame fight, I probably made mistakes, but in any case I like the resulting position in the opening. I like this game's 3b is a tiny bit better than that in game 88595. Not sure about the two 4b's.

In any case, after 7w I definitely like gold's position.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 14th, 2008, 1:09pm

on 12/13/08 at 09:55:07, warren wrote:
In that game gold pushed his elephant-side horse on the second (real) move (i.e. move 3w). We could achieve the same net effect of of those first two moves by pushing our phant three squares north and phant's horse one square on the first move (2w) and then chase the camel on the second move (3w) if we decide to go that way.

I withdraw the above statement. In game 83795 Fritzlein pushed his 'phant forward two squares, and our elephant cannot move through his. So if we want to go after the camel immediately we do indeed need to move our 'phant four squares this moves.

Update: I now support 2w Ennne (again).
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Adanac on Dec 14th, 2008, 1:14pm

on 12/14/08 at 09:24:19, chessandgo wrote:
I had the chance to try jbd's plan today in a game:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=91410&s=b

I hope you guys don't mind. Not sure about the midgame fight, I probably made mistakes, but in any case I like the resulting position in the opening. I like this game's 3b is a tiny bit better than that in game 88595. Not sure about the two 4b's.

In any case, after 7w I definitely like gold's position.


I certainly don't mind, our planning will be much easier with more games to study!  It was interesting to play through all of the linked games.

After looking at your game and JDB's game, a common weakness was the b3 square.  In both games there was an opportunity to solidify the square but at the cost of a passive position.  For example, JDB could have played 12g Hc3e Mc4s Hd3s Mc3w and Chessandgo could have played 14g Ha4s Db3s Ha3e.  In the 2nd example, Chessandgo was able to hold the position by blocking out b3 with a dog + 2 other pieces.  Hopefully our Mob game won't get to a point where we have to choose between a weak b3 or a passive position...

I wonder how Fritzlein will change his strategy after these recent losses?  He might mimic the game against Chessandgo but without the horse advance on the west side (west side in the Mob game, east side against Chessandgo).  Less likely, but not out of the question, he may allow a silver camel hostage while flooding our east side.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Bildstein on Dec 14th, 2008, 4:47pm
As I understand it, the problem with Ennne is that we waste some steps if silver attacks our west side and we have to run our phant back there. And Fritzlein has said that he's not worried about his camel being attacked because he's pretty happy with the defence the rabbits offer. (Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.)

But I can't see how it can actually play out badly for us, in practice. If silver moves his phant out he has to take a step to deal with the threat to the rabbit., and next turn it looks like we can defend our home trap easily enough.

My question is simply this: is there someone here that thinks that Ennne is likely to end up wasting steps (or compromising in some other way so we don't have to), and if so can they explain it to me?
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 15th, 2008, 7:24am

on 12/14/08 at 13:14:36, Adanac wrote:
In the 2nd example, Chessandgo was able to hold the position by blocking out b3 with a dog + 2 other pieces.  Hopefully our Mob game won't get to a point where we have to choose between a weak b3 or a passive position...

I wonder how Fritzlein will change his strategy after these recent losses?  He might mimic the game against Chessandgo but without the horse advance on the west side (west side in the Mob game, east side against Chessandgo).  Less likely, but not out of the question, he may allow a silver camel hostage while flooding our east side.


My 14w was terrible, it was definitely where the game became unclear again, your 14w would have given gold a huge advantage. In any case, I see no plan for silver if the e+h on the eastern wing (in the linked game, western for our game) yields nothing (which it does apparently). Guess I'm supporting 2w E to e5 now :)
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 15th, 2008, 7:32am

on 12/14/08 at 16:47:33, Bildstein wrote:
My question is simply this: is there someone here that thinks that Ennne is likely to end up wasting steps (or compromising in some other way so we don't have to), and if so can they explain it to me?


well, both the two most discussed moves are "compromising" apparently: Ennne is good if we plan to 3w E to g6, and Ennn Hb2n is good if we plan to 3w Hb2 foward (each being "bad" for the other plan). Thus I think the choice for this move is already critical, probably the most critical of the whole opening, as the move we choose now will decide whether the game will turn into a rabbitpull/camelpull on eastern wing, probably yielding a theoretical fight of r framer vs m+smaller pieces swarmer, or whether it will turn into an E+H (+M?) vs E+h(+h?) on one wing and m vs H on the other (western) wing, with probably good rabbit pulling opportunities for gold on the crowded wing. Before this discussion I wholeheartedly favored second option, but jdb's plan (the real one, not my original misunderstanding :)) seem to make 1st plan even easier to play out for gold ...  
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by jdb on Dec 15th, 2008, 7:46am
If we play E->e5 silver could block the path to g6 with e->f5. This looks a little unusual for silver, but who knows.

Maybe E->e4 Hb2n would be better? Silver can't block E->g6 on the next move, since there are two paths. It is likely tactically necessary to block the e file, so silver cant go to e->e3 on his first move.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 15th, 2008, 7:53am
If we play analogously to Fritz and Chessandgo's recent 91410 game the first few moves would be:

2w Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Ed5e
2b ee7s de8s hb7s hb6s
3w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5n Hb2n
3b ee6s de7s rf7w mg7w
4w Eg6e Eh6s rh7s Hg2n
4b ee5s ee4s ee3w Me2n
5w Eh5w rh6s Eg5w rh5w

Does anyone see any flaws in this variation?
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 15th, 2008, 8:23am
This is a lively discussion, but it's about time to vote.  Please make your closing statements.  We can vote tomorrow if there are no objections.

Either of our two leading moves look OK to me.  The E->e5 is different than what I would play, but it would be interesting if we could exploit the silver camel, thereby refuting the setup.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 15th, 2008, 8:24am

on 12/15/08 at 07:46:28, jdb wrote:
If we play E->e5 silver could block the path to g6 with e->f5. This looks a little unusual for silver, but who knows.

Maybe E->e4 Hb2n would be better? Silver can't block E->g6 on the next move, since there are two paths. It is likely tactically necessary to block the e file, so silver cant go to e->e3 on his first move.

If he plays e->f5 we accomplish our goal of keeping his elephant in the east (at least temporarily). We can then suspend our camel-harassment plan, develop pieces and if he keeps his phant in the east proceed to pull the a7 rabbit with our horse. Once he moves his phant out of the way we can perhaps proceed with the camel-threat. So I don't think we have to worry about 2b e->f5

I don't like 2w E->e4 at first glance because it allows his elephant to get in a slightly better position after 2b e->e5 h->b6.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Adanac on Dec 15th, 2008, 12:20pm

on 12/15/08 at 08:24:02, warren wrote:
If he plays e->f5 we accomplish our goal of keeping his elephant in the east (at least temporarily). We can then suspend our camel-harassment plan, develop pieces and if he keeps his phant in the east proceed to pull the a7 rabbit with our horse. Once he moves his phant out of the way we can perhaps proceed with the camel-threat. So I don't think we have to worry about 2b e->f5

I don't like 2w E->e4 at first glance because it allows his elephant to get in a slightly better position after 2b e->e5 h->b6.


I agree with Warren.  I seriously doubt Fritzlein will move his Elephant to f5, but if he does we can go back to attacking in the west with the Silver Elephant wasting tempi getting back into the right position.

I like the camel-threat/rabbit-pull idea in the east.  But I'm still leaning towards the horse advance in the west as the stronger plan. It's interesting the Chessandgo called this the most important decision of the opening.  In live games, I usually play the opening four steps in about 5 seconds without any real thoughts. The Mob is teaching me better habits  :D
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Bildstein on Dec 15th, 2008, 3:26pm
Okay, my $0.02: Fritzlein puts his camel over there away from our elephant so that if we go after it we spend many steps, and so his development is faster than ours. I think he'll be happy to see us going after it, and I get the impression from what he's said about this setup that he doesn't think we can do much with his camel.

Of course warren's continuation shows us pulling a rabbit. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm seeing this continuation as "gold goes for a rabbit pull on the east wing" rather than "gold attacks silver's camel, with a threat of a rabbit pull".
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by warren on Dec 15th, 2008, 6:58pm

on 12/15/08 at 15:26:23, Bildstein wrote:
Of course warren's continuation shows us pulling a rabbit. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm seeing this continuation as "gold goes for a rabbit pull on the east wing" rather than "gold attacks silver's camel, with a threat of a rabbit pull".

Yep. One can think of the threat to the camel as a tactic to keep him distracted while we pull his rabbit.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Dec 16th, 2008, 2:45am

on 12/15/08 at 12:20:23, Adanac wrote:
I agree with Warren.  


+1

2w Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Ed5e
2b ee7s de8s hb7s hb6s
3w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5n Hb2n
3b ee6s de7s rf7w mg7w
4w Eg6e Eh6s rh7s Hg2n
4b ee5s ee4s ee3w Me2n
5w Eh5w rh6s Eg5w rh5w

Yes, I like this line, but there's a good Karl will play differently (so many moves possible ... :))
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 17th, 2008, 1:30pm
TheMob chooses E->d5, H->b3.

For the record:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       1.       2.       3.
1. Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Hb2n (E->d5, H->b3)                                                                                   -        7       11
2. Ed2n Ed3n Ed4n Ed5e (E->e5)                                                                                                                                                                                           3       -        9
3. Ed2n Ed3n Hb2n Hg2n (E->d4, H->b3, H->g3)              0       1       -
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Bildstein on Dec 17th, 2008, 2:48pm
So the mob has chosen Ennn Hb2n. From the earlier discussion, this seems to a) be the move that commits us least, and b) have potential for an E+H attack in the west.

But as we're not committed, and it's silver's move, I guess now we wait. I'm sure whatever move Fritzlein comes up with, it will give us plenty to think about. And I for one would not like to try guessing what it will be.

(As an aside, what do you guys think Fritzlein was expecting from us? I reckon he was probably expecting this move. It is, after all, the safe move.)
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 18th, 2008, 6:54am
In the game chat, I commented that our move was probably what he expected, not that we care.  Fritz's reply was that he was surprised because he expected a *good* move.  He thinks our move was just an attempt to shorten the agony of our loss.

All mobsters are free to suggest trash talk.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Bildstein on Dec 18th, 2008, 3:47pm
"Shorten the agony of our loss"? Is he suggesting that we're trying to lose quickly!?

I hope in his game notes he has a suggestion for a better move. Unfortunately it will be a very long time until we get to see it.
Title: Re: Move 2
Post by Adanac on Dec 19th, 2008, 7:51am

on 12/18/08 at 15:47:54, Bildstein wrote:
"Shorten the agony of our loss"? Is he suggesting that we're trying to lose quickly!?

I hope in his game notes he has a suggestion for a better move. Unfortunately it will be a very long time until we get to see it.


He was joking -- the move that we played is most likely the one that he anticipated.  If he was expecting (fearing?) E->e5 if was only because he lost to Chessandgo with that move last week.


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