Arimaa Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Arimaa Forum
        (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 10
        
(Message started by: Simon on Apr 15^th, 2009, 7:49pm)

Title: Move 10
Post by Simon on Apr 15^th, 2009, 7:49pm

Fritzlein has moved:

9s ed3n ed4w ec4w cg8s

threatening to flip our camel.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Simon on Apr 15^th, 2009, 8:05pm

As a first guess at a move, would there be any problem in just flipping the rabbit as chessandgo thought would be the most likely move 10, and if Fritzlein flips M to b5, just responding with Ef5w hd5w Ee5w ?? ?

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by chessandgo on Apr 16^th, 2009, 2:54am

hmmmm no, letting silver flip our camel would be a hard blow. We have the Ha6 so a caMel hostage will be extremely hard for silver to achieve, but nonetheless we would have to tie our Elephant to defense on the west, and silver would take profit with his eastern camel against our HD on g and h files.

How about 10g Mb3e Ee5ww Hd5s? Optically it looks really good for gold, very dangerous for the silver horse. For the moment I just see 10s eb4e hd4eee type of answer, after which we're pretty happy to tie both phants to eastern side with something like 11g E to g5 (+ a M step). If silver's phant commits to f3 defense we're extremely happy as our pieces are magnificently placed on the west (either to pull the a7 rabbit to c3 or go for an M+H attack). Silver would also go after our Ha6 and trade Ha6 for hg4. I don't think it's bad for us either, should give us time to at least frame the rh5 on f3.

10s pull the Mc3 moves seems to completely fail. Unless I'm missing something I start to like our position a lot.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Adanac on Apr 16^th, 2009, 4:01am

on 04/16/09 at 02:54:25, chessandgo wrote:

How about 10g Mb3e Ee5ww Hd5s? Optically it looks really good for gold, very dangerous for the silver horse. For the moment I just see 10s eb4e hd4eee type of answer, after which we're pretty happy to tie both phants to eastern side with something like 11g E to g5 (+ a M step). If silver's phant commits to f3 defense we're extremely happy as our pieces are magnificently placed on the west (either to pull the a7 rabbit to c3 or go for an M+H attack). Silver would also go after our Ha6 and trade Ha6 for hg4. I don't think it's bad for us either, should give us time to at least frame the rh5 on f3.

Yes, this clearly seems like the best move to me too. The ability to freeze the silver horse in the middle of the board close to both our camel and elephant while removing our camel from danger is a great move.

I looked at some wild counter-plans for silver, such as

10s eb4e mg6s mg5s de6s
or
10s eb4e hb6sss

and in both lines we win material in every variation that I tested. It seems Karl will almost certainly do as Jean suggested:

10s Flee east with the horse to g4
11g Move gold elephant to g5
11s Move silver elephant to b6
12g&12s Horse trade

From Fritz's point of view, this seems like the only logical long-term response to this proposed 10g. My biggest concern beyond move 13 is what to do on the west side. Our camel looks like it will be driven to the east on move 13 which makes the silver horse quite powerful on the western half.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by arimaa_master on Apr 16^th, 2009, 6:19am

Without looking on suggestions I like

10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Mb3e

(Now I see that Chessandgo already suggested the same move).

Ok - it seems that it will be the voice vote.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by jdb on Apr 16^th, 2009, 7:27am

Quote:

10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Mb3e
10s Flee east with the horse to g4
11g Move gold elephant to g5
11s Move silver elephant to b6
12g&12s Horse trade

After this line, which seems to be semi-forced, gold has a minor advantage. We will always have this move to fall back on.

Silver's two dogs are exposed for pulling. Is there some tactic we can use to exploit that?

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by warren on Apr 16^th, 2009, 9:42am

on 04/16/09 at 02:54:25, chessandgo wrote:

How about 10g Mb3e Ee5ww Hd5s?

Bomb suggests the reply
10s eb4e hd4e ec4e Mc3n

How would we counter that?

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Adanac on Apr 16^th, 2009, 6:16pm

on 04/16/09 at 09:42:19, warren wrote:

Bomb suggests the reply
10s eb4e hd4e ec4e Mc3n

How would we counter that?

That is a pretty tough move to meet. I couldn't find a response that I liked.

There is a completely different plan available to us. If we allow the camel to be flipped to b5 it might still be safe:

10g Ra2n Ra3n Ef5w Ra1n
10s eb4e Mb3n Mb4n ec4w (camel flip to b5)
11g Ra2n Ra4n hd5w Ee5w
11s mg6s mg5s de6s cg7s
12g hb6n Mb5n Mb6s Ha6e (claim b6 square for our horse)

After 12g our pieces are strangely safe from danger and our elephant has time to challenge the silver camel in the east. It's a bit of a crazy line, so I wouldn't recommend it without some serious analysis :)

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by warren on Apr 16^th, 2009, 8:41pm

What about 10g Mb3w Ee5ww Hd5s ?

Moving our camel against the wall near his elephant is admittedly really weird, but I don't think he can spare the tempos to take it hostage right now. Moving the camel west stops Bomb's nasty 10s.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Adanac on Apr 17^th, 2009, 5:02am

on 04/16/09 at 20:41:45, warren wrote:

It's not really weird, it's a legitimate plan. With a horse on a6 we don't have to worry about a hostage camel being dragged up the a-file.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by chessandgo on Apr 18^th, 2009, 2:29am

on 04/16/09 at 09:42:19, warren wrote:

Bomb suggests the reply
10s eb4e hd4e ec4e Mc3n

How would we counter that?

Ah yes, looks better, Bomb's move generator is better than mine apparently :-)

It's not that frightening though, we can just get our M back, but I guess it gives silver some relief. I'm not fond of 10g Mb3w Ee5ww Hd5s, as our caMel gets out of the action. This said there does not seem to be h to d2 type of moves, so at least the h cannot sneak towards f2.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by chessandgo on Apr 18^th, 2009, 6:22am

on 04/16/09 at 18:16:59, Adanac wrote:

I'm not sure I'm fond of this plan; if anything silver can simply get his horse back.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Hannoskaj on Apr 18^th, 2009, 8:30am

Another similar possibility is:
Ews hs Ha5

Provides some protection to the camel and the horse is no more target for exchange. But it is more vulnerable here.

Silver answers:
- M to c4 or b5 with e to b4 or c5
- e to c4 with or without Mb4, with or without h to d2 (or mg4 but that looks too early)
- Go after horse ec5 Hb5 + one step

Everything is a little wild, I do not have any firm opinion on that move.

I do not like too much our position after Bomb's answer if allowed.
I find very interesting Adanac's suggestion of advancing rabbits, but then I doubt I would immediately try to tackle the camel. Maybe go after rabbit. And I do not see anything convincing after the simple Ed4 mc4 either.
Warren's suggestion tucks camel out of the way, But if we follow the same variation as with Mc3, that is exchange horses on f3 and c6, the camel hostage threat is again for real.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Hannoskaj on Apr 18^th, 2009, 11:49am

More of the tree after
Ed5 hd4 Ha5
Stars for the lines I think most interesting for Silver. Globally I think Gold is not bad, but I can't say just how not bad.

*11s mb5 (flip)
12g Mc4 hb6c5 looks good enough after some testplay.
11s Ec4 mb4 Mg4
12g Ef4 he4
11s Ec4 Hd2
12g Ha4 Mb3 Ed3
* 11s Ec4 Hg4
12g Eg5 x (Ha4?)
12s Ee3 x... quite a different game
12g Mf3 and play against horse ?
* 11s Ec5 hb5 x (probably not Mg5 since it would allow ef4 Mf5 if Hg4 is played)
12g Ra5 Hb4
12s Ec4 Hg4
13g Eg5 Ha4 ?
13s Ee3 Ha6 ?
11s Ec5 mb5
12g Mb3 Ed4 hd3
12s Ew Ehe x
13g Ra5 Hb4 1-0
11s mc4 (flip)
12g Md4 hd3 Ec4
11s Ec5 mc4
12g hd3 Ed4 Mc4 Ha4 for example

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Adanac on Apr 18^th, 2009, 5:58pm

on 04/18/09 at 11:49:26, Hannoskaj wrote:

I like your proposal of 10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s. The fact that it works well against the camel flip to b5 (with a horse pull to c5) and the horse fleeing to g4 followed by our elephant to g5 does NOT lead to a horse exchange is terrific. We'll have to examine this in greater depth due to the complexity of some of the positions.

Since Fritzlein will probably want to avoid the most complex variations against The Mob, we should most closely analyze the least tactically messy positions.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by camelback on Apr 18^th, 2009, 11:57pm

on 04/18/09 at 08:30:39, Hannoskaj wrote:

Another similar possibility is:
Ews hs Ha5

I think the following response from silver makes the west side much weaker for gold.

10s eb4e Mb3n rb8s ra7s

I like chessandgo's move.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Hannoskaj on Apr 19^th, 2009, 1:40am

on 04/18/09 at 23:57:33, camelback wrote:

Quote:

[...] 10g Ha5 Ed5 hd4

I think the following response from silver makes the west side much weaker for gold.

10s eb4e Mb3n rb8s ra7s

How would you reply as Silver to 11g Ha4 Mb3 hd3 Ed4 ? It looks very good for Gold to me.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Adanac on Apr 19^th, 2009, 6:47am

on 04/19/09 at 01:40:04, Hannoskaj wrote:

10s eb4e Mb3n rb8s ra7sHow would you reply as Silver to 11g Ha4 Mb3 hd3 Ed4 ? It looks very good for Gold to me.

Yes, I think we're easily winning in this variation. If Fritzlein wants to spend 2 steps blocking our horse out of the a6 square while his own horse is in mortal danger in the middle of the board, I'm fine with that :)

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by warren on Apr 19^th, 2009, 7:53am

I think I like Hannoskaj's

10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by camelback on Apr 19^th, 2009, 11:57am

on 04/19/09 at 01:40:04, Hannoskaj wrote:

How would you reply as Silver to 11g Ha4 Mb3 hd3 Ed4 ? It looks very good for Gold to me.

Yes! that's a good reply

Here are some wild lines that I'm not sure which side has advantage. May be there is a inevitable horse exchange...

10w Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s
10b eb4n eb5s Ha5e ra7s
11w Mb3e Mc3e Ed5w Hb5w
11b eb4e hd4n ec4e de6s
12w Ec5w hd5w hc5s Eb5e
12b Md3s ed4s de5w hb6s

10w Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s
10b eb4e hd4e he4e hf4e
11w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5s Ha5s
11b ec4w mg6s Dh4s hg4e

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Hannoskaj on Apr 19^th, 2009, 10:35pm

on 04/19/09 at 11:57:22, camelback wrote:

That one is very interesting! I had completely missed Eew hb5 x.
In fact, since on Ec5 hb5 x, there is 11g Mb4 Ha5 Ed4 hd3, I had come to think that the only move was Ec4 Hg4, discussed below, all the more since (at first glance) it looks relatively demure.

On 10s Eew hb5 x, the tense move is
11g Ec4 dc5.

The idea is to threaten to kill horse AND dog for our horse. We keep the possibility of switching side with camel. It looks very complicated.

Quote:

10w Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s
10b eb4e hd4e he4e hf4e
11w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5s Ha5s
11b ec4w mg6s Dh4s hg4e

On 10s Ec4 Hg4:
either follow with elephant, or with camel.

First case: Ef4 x (your proposal) leaves the silver horse a little more free, but our elephant is probably better placed.
Second case (most forcing): Eg5 Ha4.
Then there is no choice for Silver, he has to defend with elephant (f4 or e3). An example where things get half crazy:
10s Ec4 Hg4
11g Eg5 Ha4
Starts getting wilder:
11s Ee3 De5 (threaten cat flip)
12g De3 Rc2d2 Cc2 (I want to send the camel up)
12s Ec4 cd4
13g Mb5 Dd4 Ce3
...

I also like 11g Mf3, even if I doubt it is the best move. We could have the whole forces switch wings in a few moves!
11s Mh6 Rg5 dh5 Hh4 looks natural.
12g Mh4 hh3 or Hg4 Mh3 x (Ec5 ?)
In the first case 12s Eg4 completes the food chain !

Anyhow, we often get jams on h and g columns. We probably can threaten horse for our dog being threatened, but in a slightly slower way. If one of the two sides can manage to keep its elephant west, it will be better: EH attack for Silver, while Gold threatens Ec5 hb5 and the horse cannot go back.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 20^th, 2009, 4:38am

Time to make a move soon. Do we like push h, H->a5 on a voice vote or do we want a formal vote?

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by jdb on Apr 20^th, 2009, 5:31am

on 04/20/09 at 04:38:15, RonWeasley wrote:

Time to make a move soon. Do we like push h, H->a5 on a voice vote or do we want a formal vote?

I vote to play this move.

It complicates the position and gets Fritz out of his comfort zone.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by warren on Apr 20^th, 2009, 7:26am

on 04/20/09 at 04:38:15, RonWeasley wrote:

Time to make a move soon. Do we like push h, H->a5 on a voice vote or do we want a formal vote?

Let's make that move.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by chessandgo on Apr 20^th, 2009, 11:39am

Quote:

Another similar possibility is:
Ews hs Ha5

Very interesting. At first sight I did not understand it but:

on 04/18/09 at 11:49:26, Hannoskaj wrote:

Globally I think Gold is not bad, but I can't say just how not bad.

Hehe :)

Quote:

*11s mb5 (flip)
12g Mc4 hb6c5 looks good enough after some testplay.

Very nice 12g, impressive move.

For the little I've thought about it I like this 10g Ews hs Ha5 too.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by camelback on Apr 20^th, 2009, 10:36pm

on 04/19/09 at 22:35:35, Hannoskaj wrote:

On 10s Eew hb5 x, the tense move is
11g Ec4 dc5.

The idea is to threaten to kill horse AND dog for our horse. We keep the possibility of switching side with camel. It looks very complicated.

Yes complicated indeed, here are some lines

10w Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s
10b eb4n eb5s Ha5e ra7s
11w Ed5w dd6s Ec5s dd5w
11b cc7s dc5e dd5n cc6n
12w Mb3e Mc3e Ec4n Hb5w
12b eb4e hd4n hd5e he5e
13w Ec5e Ed5e hf5s Ee5e
13b ec4e ed4e Md3n hf4e

on 04/19/09 at 22:35:35, Hannoskaj wrote:

Yes, I realized it much later after posting that line. 10s Ec4 Hg4 is a weak move for silver and gold has much better options.

on 04/19/09 at 22:35:35, Hannoskaj wrote:

Anyhow, we often get jams on h and g columns. We probably can threaten horse for our dog being threatened, but in a slightly slower way. If one of the two sides can manage to keep its elephant west, it will be better: EH attack for Silver, while Gold threatens Ec5 hb5 and the horse cannot go back.

I couldn't follow your further lines, but I agree there is some impetus with that move. I'm OK.

10w Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s
10b eb4e hd4e he4n he5e
11w Ed5e hf5s Ee5e Ha5s
11b ec4e ed4e hf4e ee4e
12w Dd1n Dd2n Mb3n Cb2n

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Hannoskaj on Apr 21^st, 2009, 12:17am

on 04/20/09 at 11:39:56, chessandgo wrote:

Very nice 12g, impressive move.

For the little I've thought about it I like this 10g Ews hs Ha5 too.

Thank you for the compliment!

For those who want to further screen the move 10g h push H->a5, I now think that the most disagreeable answer is camelback's 10s Ens hb5 x (either Ra6, or De5, or...) To me, it looks hard to both avoid simplifications and keep/get an edge.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by chessandgo on Apr 21^st, 2009, 7:21am

on 04/21/09 at 00:17:14, Hannoskaj wrote:

For those who want to further screen the move 10g h push H->a5, I now think that the most disagreeable answer is camelback's 10s Ens hb5 x (either Ra6, or De5, or...) To me, it looks hard to both avoid simplifications and keep/get an edge.

I don't see how that can be a problem, as we can undo this move with 3 steps. Silver does not have very interesting single steps to improve, while we have Dd1n (very clear) and probably Mb3e as well.
If the fear is that silver will use these single steps with ra7s on 10s and ra6s on 11s, then with two advanced rabbits on a5 and h5 plus a threatened horse in the middle I can't imagine that silver can avoid getting a rabbit framed in rather short term and eventually losing a rabbit in middle term.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see any problem either with 10g Mb3e instead of Ha6s.

I think both moves give us a very clear advantage, and I'm fine with playing either if others agree on one of them.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 21^st, 2009, 8:00am

on 04/21/09 at 07:21:46, chessandgo wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see any problem either with 10g Mb3e instead of Ha6s.

I thought TheMob didn't like Mb3e because of the counter bomb found. I thought Ha6s addressed the horse exchange. TheMob seemed ready to go with Ha6s and I was about to make that move. Am I misunderstanding something?

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Adanac on Apr 21^st, 2009, 8:02am

I also support 10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s. This line looks like our best chance to secure a positional advantage.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by chessandgo on Apr 21^st, 2009, 11:29pm

on 04/21/09 at 08:00:48, RonWeasley wrote:

Dunno, after bomb's move we can just get our M back (M to c3 and Dd1n as a last step for instance). The position looks just as good as what we get after the Ha6s move as far as I can tell.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by Hannoskaj on Apr 22^nd, 2009, 12:31am

Upon further thought, an interesting reply to Bomb's counter to chessandgo's move (to ...) is
Ewwe hb5.

We may play Hb6 on next move if allowed, we also threaten horse pull with camel.
Sample reply:
11s m rotate to d5
12g dd7 Mb6 looks hard to fight.

On the other hand, if we allow the variation with horse exchange, is that bad ?
Say
10s Flee east with the horse to g4
11g Move gold elephant to g5 + Md3 (or Mb3)
11s Move silver elephant to b6 + Hb5
12g&12s Horse trade

13g Rabbit flip ?

The question seems to be, how much can he harass our camel.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 22^nd, 2009, 8:12am

Even though I remain a bit confused, I see what looks like overwhelming support for 10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s. TheMob has spoken.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by chessandgo on May 4^th, 2009, 10:34am

alright, I'll be leaving for New York tomorrow. I won't be back to my place before the end of may, so have fun with the Mob game :-)

Cheers, and see you in june

Jean

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by RonWeasley on May 7^th, 2009, 3:58am

I am going on holiday for a week next week. If somebody wants to volunteer to be acting moderator, I can send you the voter's list and voting site.

Title: Re: Move 10
Post by jdb on May 7^th, 2009, 3:41pm

on 05/07/09 at 03:58:20, RonWeasley wrote:

I am going on holiday for a week next week. If somebody wants to volunteer to be acting moderator, I can send you the voter's list and voting site.

I can do it.