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Title: Move 18 Post by Simon on Aug 28th, 2009, 7:26am 17s rb6s ra8e dd6w rf8s |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Simon on Aug 28th, 2009, 7:39am My first impression is that Fritzlein has cut off the interesting moves we could make, so we might as well make a dull one, like 18g D->b3 to put the dog closer to the action. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Adanac on Aug 28th, 2009, 10:02am on 08/28/09 at 07:39:53, Simon wrote:
Yes, and if everyone agrees with 18g Dog to b3 then we can re-build time reserves with a quick vote. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by chessandgo on Aug 28th, 2009, 10:48am D to b3 has my vote as well |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Soter on Aug 29th, 2009, 12:31am D -> b3, supported. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Hannoskaj on Aug 29th, 2009, 12:50am OK for Db3. I have a slight worry on what happens if our cat is flipped to d5, but I guess we have enough play notably against his cat. By the way, now Fritz has only one rabbit on last line, so there are interesting goal attack themes. We may relatively soon play Ha6 rb7b6 ra7b7 Ha7. If we also have a Ra6, things get really interesting. If we imagine defences with dc8 to try and block the horse, then Ha8 rb7a7 rb8b7 Hb8 will tie at least the two dogs to defence. There are many "if"s, but we should keep that somewhere in mind. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by jdb on Aug 29th, 2009, 4:53am I support D->b3 |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by chessandgo on Aug 29th, 2009, 6:35am on 08/29/09 at 00:50:08, Hannoskaj wrote:
I think your Cc4 - > d5 worry is legitimate (and Cc4 -> e4 looks almost worse), but if we didn't want that to happen we should not have played this 17g in the first place. We can still play Rb4w Cc4w but I fear the huge loss of time we suffer is really terrible for our position. At least it seems we should not lose material, maybe 18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n 18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4n ed3n 19g Rb4w Db3n Db4s cb5s 19s de6s de5e Cd5e ed4w 20g Mc3e he3n Md3e Cd2n or 18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n 18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4n ed3n 19g Rb4w Db3n Db4s cb5s 19s de6s de5e Cd5e ed4s 20g Hb6s Hb5e Hc5e Hd5n or 18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n 18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n 19g Rb4w Db3n Db4s cb5s 19s ed4s hf4s Ce4e de6s 20g Hb6s Hb5e Hc5e (Hd5n) hold for us. But it's true silver can exchange cats if he wants to, which is not great as we hoped to have a nice cat hostage. The saves require our Horse to go to the middle (e6/d6), I hope it's fine and silver's elephant can't really go and capture it without losing stuff on f3. hmmm, anyway this Cc4 is a real concern :( Should we lose two (or probably a bit more) steps to get it out of the way? Sounds dangerous to lose so much time is such a position. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Soter on Aug 29th, 2009, 9:05am Quote:
This Cc4 frigthens me a bit as well, but I checked your proposed lines and - if you trust my modest Arimaa skills - there seems to be little danger... gold phant can't be busy flipping our cat, protecting his pair of horses from our camel and attacking our lone horse all at the same time. Maybe we haven't reached the most wonderful of all Arimaa positions but it doesn't (imho) look tragic either. So I think I still support D -> b3. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Adanac on Aug 29th, 2009, 1:56pm When we flipped the cat from b7 to b5 with our 16th move, we wanted the option of pulling a silver rabbit from a7 to a6 in the future. We could use that option now to prevent Fritzlein from using 4 steps to flip our cat. 18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w It prevents any cat threats on 18s and it is a step towards an eventual plan of Horse on c7 and Dog on b6. My biggest problem with this move is that our dog can only take 1 step on 18g and is still far away from the action. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by chessandgo on Aug 30th, 2009, 5:00am on 08/29/09 at 13:56:05, Adanac wrote:
yeah, maybe 18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w 18s dc6s ed4s Cc4e de6w puts us in trouble, for instance: 19g Dc1w Db1n Db2n Rb4w (not enough) 19s Cd4n ed3n Cd5e dd6s So maybe, if silver can't capture our Cat after D->b3, he at least can trade cats with something like: 18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n 18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n 19g Rb4w Ra4n cb5s Hb6s 19s hf4s Ce4e Cf4n hf3n 20g cb4e Db3n Mc3w cc4s cc3x 20s de6e df6w Cf5n Cf6x we're not in a bad shape perhaps, but well, no cat hostage compared to what we hoped for. So I'm still for D->b3, but it's not as easy a decision as expected. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Adanac on Aug 30th, 2009, 6:42am on 08/30/09 at 05:00:45, chessandgo wrote:
Fritz doesn't have to hurry his cat capture so much though: 18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n 18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n 19g Rb4w Ra4n cb5s Hb6s 19s hf4s Ce4e ed4s de6w I was imaging a scenario where our horse reaches c7, the silver elephant is tied to the d3/d4 squares and our cat can be kept alive by the horse (which can move back and forth along the 7th rank) while our dog begins its slow journey up the b-file: 18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w 18s dc6s ed4s Cc4e de6w 19g rb7w Hb6n Re1w Dc1w 19s Cd4e ed3n ed4s cb5n 20g Db1n Db2n rc7s Hb7e 20s hf4s Ce4e dd6e rc6e 21g Hc7e Rb4w Db3n Db4n 21s dc5n cb6n dc6w cb7e 22g rd6s Hd7s Db5e Ra4n Is this too optimistic? Over-optimism often gets me into trouble in this game ;D |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by chessandgo on Aug 30th, 2009, 7:57am yes it's interesting, we can also try this. Silver can simply answer 18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w 18s de6w rb7w rc7w dc6n reestablishing the blockade on b7, after which we've somehow gained a step with Dd1w (but maybe silver is happy to have his 2 dogs on the west, I dunno). It's true that if silver lets us break through b7 and pulls the cat into the center, our Horse is kind of happier to go help it through the second rank and not through the center. If we have to push the rc7 after getting Hb7 I think we should push it north, not south as in your variation. This H->c7 plan makes us lose the cat hostage, but well, if we can't hope for better than a cat exchange anyway, it's fine. So yeah, I like your move Greg. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Hannoskaj on Aug 30th, 2009, 10:24am Indeed, this looks optimistic (though I like much the wrecking of rabbit structure on the left). My intuitive 19s would be establishing the cat fork 19s cd4n Ed3n Hd6w cd5n We may defend with 20g Db1nn rc7w Hb7w but it looks really hard to keep the cat for long, especially with d7 rabbit in the way. We could also push it south and hope for some play if Fritz takes cat for rabbit. 20g Db1nn rc7s Hb7w 20s Dog takes 21g Mc3 pushes dc5 Rb4e Finally we may break the fork with 20g rc7s Hb7ww Cd6s but it looks hard to defend both cat and rabbit. (Ex. 20s Cb5n rb4n Ra6s Rc6e) On the other hand, I am also less and less confident on the simple Db3. I really don't like the cat chase. Now, if we want to tuck the cat away, the new idea is really trying to work with our advanced rabbits. To make way for the dog, the cat has also to leave b4, so that its natural case would be a4 to make sure the a5 rabbit can move if needed. Meanwhile Silver's plan seems to consist in rotating a horse out. 18g Rb4w Cc4w Dd1ww (I am not afraid of ed2) 18s De6s Rf7ss Ed3 (fastest way to rotate horse out, but leaves rabbit in front at the end) 19g Db1nn Ra4n Cb4w 19s Hf4e Rf5s Rg5w Rh5w 20g Dh4n rg5s Dh5w Hf2n While scrutinizing lines, I've seen that in fact the c6 dog is on a very disagreeable square, and really should stay there. It makes much more difficult an approach by our camel. For rotating the horse out while keeping completely the lock, the two dogs are needed. 18s De5ne Rf7w Ed4s 19g Db1nn Ra4n Cb4w 19s Re7nn Dc6ww (Dc6wn would make the following 20g much more clear-cut) 20g Mc3nn Rc2nn with a very rich and dynamic position. I think that's playable. Anyhow, right now, I'd rather be Silver in that game. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Adanac on Aug 30th, 2009, 6:23pm on 08/30/09 at 07:57:11, chessandgo wrote:
Here, I'd prefer to play 19g Cc4n Hb6e dc7n Hc6n The silver cat can now retreat to b6 but our dog has a very strong future on the b-file. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Adanac on Aug 30th, 2009, 7:01pm on 08/30/09 at 10:24:54, Hannoskaj wrote:
I would like this position a lot for us. Even though our camel would get into big difficulty on 21s, our goal threats will save it: 18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w 18s dc6s ed4s Cc4e de6w 19g rb7w Hb6n Re1w Dc1w 19s Cd4n ed3n dd6w Cd5n 20g rc7e Hb7e Db1n Dc1n 20s Cd6e dc6e Ce6e Cf6x dd6e 21g Mc3n dc5n dc6x Mc4n Rb4e 21s ed4n ed5n Mc5e cb5e 22g Db3n Db4n cc5n Db5e 22s ra6e Md5e ed6s cc6e And now either 23g Ra2nnnn or 23g Dc5w Rc4n Rc5n Db5e prevents the immediate camel capture and gives us a very strong rabbit. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Hannoskaj on Aug 30th, 2009, 10:24pm on 08/30/09 at 19:01:20, Adanac wrote:
I guess the top three moves should read: 18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n 18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n 19g Rb4w Ra4n cb5s Hb6s Anyhow, taking cat (and rather with keeping the dog at d6) immediately was suggested only if we play 20g rc7**s** Hb7e Db1n Dc1n so that we cannot take dog on 21g but only rabbit. Of course I was expecting our goal threats to be strong enough not to reject the line immediately, but we are material down, not up. If we play 20g rc7**e** etc., then I was thinking of merely Ra6e xxx, and it's really hard to keep the cat. Maybe even Ra6e Dc5e Cb5e... Otherwise, if Fritz plays 18s de6w rb7w rc7w dc6n, I think we are really comfortable. He does not have enough material to make progress anywhere with both dogs on the left. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by RonWeasley on Aug 31st, 2009, 10:05am Is there a consensus on the rabbit pull and Dd1w or is the consensus still D->b3? |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Adanac on Aug 31st, 2009, 12:33pm on 08/31/09 at 10:05:44, RonWeasley wrote:
I have a strong preference for the ra7s and Dd1w. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 1st, 2009, 3:27am This seems like a voice vote. 18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w. 6 votes will do it. Count mine and Adanac. I will make the move after noticing the 6th vote or an objection. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by jdb on Sep 1st, 2009, 5:11am on 09/01/09 at 03:27:12, RonWeasley wrote:
+1 |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by arimaa_master on Sep 1st, 2009, 7:44am on 09/01/09 at 03:27:12, RonWeasley wrote:
Count me in too. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Soter on Sep 1st, 2009, 8:27am Quote:
+1 |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 1st, 2009, 1:04pm It's getting late in the day and we have 5 votes. (If I asked for 5 votes we would have only 4.) Simon, chessandgo , and Hannoskaj have not responded today and chessandgo most recently gave a preference for this move. I'm going to risk offending some of TheMob by making this move now even though this voice vote has only been going for about 9 hours. So 18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w. |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Adanac on Sep 1st, 2009, 5:54pm on 09/01/09 at 13:04:19, RonWeasley wrote:
This muggle supports your bold decision to boost our reserve time :D |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 2nd, 2009, 12:13am Yeah, I am not completely sure it was the best move. But I am, that this move is the most fun! |
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Title: Re: Move 18 Post by chessandgo on Sep 2nd, 2009, 12:42am well, let's go for it :) |
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