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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 23
        
(Message started by: mdk on Oct 15^th, 2009, 6:12pm)

Title: Move 23
Post by mdk on Oct 15^th, 2009, 6:12pm

Fritz moved 22s he4e hf4n ed4e ee4e

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Adanac on Oct 15^th, 2009, 6:52pm

on 10/15/09 at 18:12:02, mdk wrote:

Fritz moved 22s he4e hf4n ed4e ee4e

The safest move is probably a camel transfer to c4:

23g Me3n Hf3w Me4w Md4w
23s dc5n dc6e cb5w Rb4n
24g Mc4w ra4s Mb4w Cc3w

Our position looks pretty solid. It’s too bad we have that buried dog on h4, but the mobile camel in the west is great. Karl might try to get his horse on e3, and then position four pieces on e4, f4, g4 and f5 to free up his elephant for the west side. But that plan seems too slow to be truly effective for him.

Alternatively, I believe we can place our camel on d4 if we want. I originally thought that Fritz could trade 2 rabbits, a cat and a dog for our camel (if we left it on d4) but then I realized that we would be able to place the dog on f4 on 27g, thus forcing the capture of the silver camel:

23g Cc3w Me3n Hf3w Me4w
23s ef4w Md4n ee4w cg4w
24g Eg3w Ef3e cf4s cf3x Re2e
24s rg5s rh5w rg4w rg5s
25g Eg3w Ef3e rf4s rf3x Cb3w
25s hf5e rg4w Md5n ed4n
26g Eg3w Ef3e rf4s rf3x Dh4w
26s de5e df5s Md6w Mc6x ed5n
27g Eg3w Ef3e df4s df3x Dg4w

Ordinarily Fritz would be able to stall with this delaying tactic, long enough to keep the camel alive:

27s hg5w Df4s hf5s hf4w

However, I think his east side would be too weakened after this, giving us the material victory due to the dangerous gold rabbit and silver capture threat.

28g Rf2w Df3s Rh2n Rh3n

That’s a long-winded way of saying that yes we can leave the camel on d4 on 23g, giving us the option of advancing it to c7 on 24g (safely out of the silver elephant’s radius of movement).

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Ice on Oct 15^th, 2009, 8:48pm

For either set of moves...

What would happen with the following response from Frit?
23s ef4w He3e ee4s hf5s

I have trouble seeing what Silver's best response would be so my line only goes 1 step out I guess. For now I'll just try to guess what Frit's response would be.

Out of curiosity, how often have we actually guess Frit's response? ( We didn't last time right? )

Title: Re: Move 23Ag
Post by Hannoskaj on Oct 15^th, 2009, 8:50pm

Agree with the analyses above.

Two remarks on the second variation.

We may spare us the long line either by pulling the dog
23g He3 Md4 de4
Might leave more freedom to Silver in the West. I think the dog is worse-placed for Silver on e4, on the other hand.

or by blocking with dog on the second move
24g takes cat + Dg4
24s Df4 md6 Ed5
25g takes dog with horse to f4 x
unless there is a reason that I do not understand why Re2 is necessary, or something like that.

EDIT:

Quote:

What would happen with the following response from Frit?
23s ef4w He3e ee4s hf5s

That's probably one of the good answers by Silver.
Notice that it's not possible after
23g He3 Md4 de4

Anyhow, it might then be a good idea to leave the horse on f3 so as to avoid having our rabbit put to f3, that would be very bad for us (we cannot transfer it to h3 any more).
The consequence would be that our immediate threats on f3 are weak and Fritz' elephant is more free.
So that we must play conservatively in the West. If the camel is on c4, maybe simply
24g cat pulls rabbit to a3
Notice that after
24s Ed4 De3
we have the winning
25g Mc4c3 dc5c4 de3e4 Hf3e3.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, how often have we actually guess Frit's response? ( We didn't last time right? )

Actually we did. That was one of the possibilities, cited twice, that we did not analyse thoroughly since it's not tactical, and we look better.

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Adanac on Oct 16^th, 2009, 4:42am

on 10/15/09 at 20:48:23, Ice wrote:

Like Hannoskaj mentioned, we did notice Fritzlein's 22s move, but we still have to analyze each and every wacky alternative just to make sure we're not going to be surprised by some less obvious tactical move. His 20s move was the same way. Karl quickly played the most obvious 20s & 22s moves but we still spent days making sure there were no hidden traps in each case.

Your 23s ef4w He3e ee4s hf5s is a logical suggestion for Fritzlein and we should know how to handle it. I think we can get away with another aggressive camel move because we'll simulataneously threaten the b6 rabbit and c5 dog, and Karl has to protect the f3 trap if his elephant is going to fight in the west:

23g Cc3w Me3n Hf3w Me4w
23s ef4w He3e ee4s hf5s
24g Md4n dc5s Md5w Cd3n
24s hf4n ee3w rb8e rc8s
25g cg4w Dh4w Hf3w cf4s

or

24s de5s Cd4n de4w dd4s
25g Cd5n Cd6w Cc6n rb6e rc6x

are both in our favour. So Karl’s best move is probably a direct attack on our camel:

23g Cc3w Me3n Hf3w Me4w
23s ef4w He3e ee4s hf5s
24g Md4n dc5s Md5w Cd3n
24s ee3n Cd4s ee4w ed4n
25g Hf3w Eg3w Ef3e hf4s hf3x
25s Mc5n Mc6x ed5w ec5e cg4w
26g Dh4w cf4s cf3x Dg4w He3n

But even here we have a slight material advantage.

Maybe it’s just too dangerous for him to leave the dog exposed and his 23s should be a dog retreat instead:

23g Cc3w Me3n Hf3w Me4w
23s dc5n dc6n cb5w Rb4n
24g Cb3w Ca3e ra4s Md4w

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Hannoskaj on Oct 17^th, 2009, 9:40am

I definitely like 23g Cc3w Me3n Hf3w Me4w

As shown in Adanac's previous post, Cc3w is an important step to open up c3.

I cannot see any tactical trick.
It's hard to predict Fritz' answer since he has so many possibilities. But I don't see anything that stops us from using our camel efficiently against cat, rabbit and dog, and/or to support rabbit advance.

Maybe something like
23s rb4e Cb5s de5w re7s
but it's very easy to find answers that look good and still do after testplay, such as
24g dd5e Md4n dc5n Md5w
...

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Adanac on Oct 18^th, 2009, 12:36pm

It's been awfully quiet here. Maybe we should go to a vote soon to save our reserve time?

The move 23g Cc3w Me3n Hf3w Me4w appears to be very safe because the silver elephant cannot attempt to capture our camel without a huge loss of material for silver. The suggested move also prevents Fritz from playing slowly on the east side as we are threatening to push the dog south on 24g. If the dog retreats north on 23s then we should be able to win the a4 silver rabbit soon while indirectly protecting our own b4 rabbit with our camel.

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Oct 19^th, 2009, 4:10am

on 10/18/09 at 12:36:11, Adanac wrote:

I tried to find a way to ruin things, but ended up agreeing with Adanac above. I tried to free the silver e by putting h->f4 and d->e3, but the gold H just pushes the d away. I tried silver attacking c3 with e and d, but gold can get material and still bring the E to fortify c3 before silver can set up a goal threat.

So I begin a voice vote for 23g Cc3w Me3n Hf3w Me4w.

I count me, Hannoskaj, and Adanac. Objections? Three more?

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Oct 19^th, 2009, 6:32am

on 10/19/09 at 04:10:11, RonWeasley wrote:

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Oct 19^th, 2009, 10:02am

Yep, +1

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by mdk on Oct 20^th, 2009, 12:40am

+1 = 6

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by arimaa_master on Oct 20^th, 2009, 2:22am

on 10/19/09 at 04:10:11, RonWeasley wrote:

backing up it with + 1

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Oct 20^th, 2009, 3:32am

on 10/19/09 at 04:10:11, RonWeasley wrote:

The move has been made. Up to move 19 I thought gold was winning. After move 20 I thought silver was winning. Now I think gold is winning. A close game, but I think we just made two good moves. Let's hope I'm not jinxing it.

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Ice on Nov 2^nd, 2009, 9:07am

I wonder if Fritz didn't expect this response. Particularly what seems to be possibly leaving the camel within reach of his elephant.

He's been fairly active on the forums and site, but hasn't moved in this game. His last few moves were also all pretty qucik, but he is taking his time here.

One suggestion for the future that would be interesting would be to both to have each team guess what they thought the best move for the other side would have been, record it in the forum or somewhere. Then we could go back and review it after the whole game was done.

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Adanac on Nov 2^nd, 2009, 9:44am

on 11/02/09 at 09:07:13, Ice wrote:

My prediction two weeks ago was the dog retreat to c7 and rabbit pull to b5 by the cat. I was expecting Fritzlein to look at the camel capture and then abandon the idea due to the high cost of the pieces he’d lose himself. Then maybe he’d look at the pushing the horse onto f3 with his elephant. But then he’ll see the threat to his dog on c5 and consider retreating the dog backwards instead.

That shouldn’t have taken 13 days, so maybe he’s thinking along different lines. But what could it be? Is he seriously considering capturing our camel? Or is he just thinking of the best way to free his elephant long-term? I expect that he’ll eventually want his horse on e3 and dog on f4 but I’d be surprised if he’s using all his time on long-term plans when there are more immediate threats at hand. If Fritzlein is spending lots of time looking at an unorthodox idea, then maybe he’s thinking of giving up his cat + camel in return for our camel. Though he’d be down a cat, he might be looking at the long-term impact of his rabbit swarm on the east side after the removal of some “clutter”. It seems like a dubious idea, though, and not at all what I'd expect from Karl's style of play. So I'll continue to predict the dog retreat to c7.

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Nov 2^nd, 2009, 1:48pm

I think fritz is taking his time because the nature of the position has changed alot in the last 2 moves. Look at the position after 21s and compare it to the current one.

After 21s, silver was on the verge of getting control. Now it is gold that could soon have control. Fritz is a player that likes to have control. The current position is not suited to his style, so a long think is to be expected.

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Ice on Nov 2^nd, 2009, 2:28pm

Does that mean that 22s was a blunder of some signifigance?

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Nov 2^nd, 2009, 4:48pm

on 11/02/09 at 14:28:16, Ice wrote:

Does that mean that 22s was a blunder of some signifigance?

It took the Mob a very long time to come up with 22g. If gold wins, that move will probably be the turning point. So maybe it will turn out that 21s was a mistake, but its too early to tell.

Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Hannoskaj on Nov 5^th, 2009, 11:01am

Moreover here Silver really has many possibilities, with none clearly better than any other, and none clearly good enough. So it's really natural he thinks that much.

For example, aside from the previous proposals, he could try
hf3 Ee3 Dd5 (or c6)
This is different from the the same with Hf4 because we need four steps to threaten dog, so we notably cannot block Silver's elephant with the cat...