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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 35
        
(Message started by: Hippo on Apr 25th, 2010, 2:07pm)
Title: Move 35
Post by Hippo on Apr 25th, 2010, 2:07pm
Fritz played
34s rh6w ef5s Rd5w dd6s
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on Apr 25th, 2010, 6:07pm
The easy response is to push the silver horse south twice.  Does he think he can pull our Horse out and get his rabbit by?

Or does
35g he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
35s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5s dd4s
get us into trouble?

What about abandoning the plan for a horse hostage, and moving
35g Ee5n Ee6w Db3n +1step
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 28th, 2010, 7:24am
I'm out of the loop Thursday and Friday.

I seems our c5 rabbit is lost.  Save it with or E and lose f3 and the game.

The obvious push horse south twice is a good hostage.  I think we would survive a silver attack on the g-file, but we would have to pay attention to it.  The horse hostage is not ideal because our horse is mired in the same area.

I would like to consider trying to advance rabbits up the h-file.  Doing this starts with Rh2n and perhaps we bring the g7 dog back to h5.  It's much harder now for silver to get a rabbit through the g-file and the silver H can't easily get involved.  Actually the silver H needs to run away for the silver E to stop this.  I'm not sure this plan is fast enough, so I'd like to hear some feedback.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on Apr 28th, 2010, 6:59pm

on 04/28/10 at 07:24:24, RonWeasley wrote:
I seems our c5 rabbit is lost.  Save it with or E and lose f3 and the game.
It seems like a race that we can win.  After
35g Ee5n Ee6w Db3n (+ Rh2n?)
What do you see silver doing to stop the attack at c6?


on 04/28/10 at 07:24:24, RonWeasley wrote:
The obvious push horse south twice is a good hostage.  I think we would survive a silver attack on the g-file, but we would have to pay attention to it.  The horse hostage is not ideal because our horse is mired in the same area.

So how do you respond to
35g he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
35s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5s dd4s

35g Ra1e Rb1e Ra2e Rh2n ?

Looking at it tonight, the straight forward horse hostage does seem to be the safer route to take.  But I'm nervous that Fritz would leave such an obvious hostage available to us - are we missing something?


on 04/28/10 at 07:24:24, RonWeasley wrote:
I would like to consider trying to advance rabbits up the h-file.  Doing this starts with Rh2n and perhaps we bring the g7 dog back to h5.  It's much harder now for silver to get a rabbit through the g-file and the silver H can't easily get involved.  Actually the silver H needs to run away for the silver E to stop this.  I'm not sure this plan is fast enough, so I'd like to hear some feedback.


This looks good to me.  And if silver brings a dog over to help defend this, we should be able to push ahead on the a file.

As an alternative silver attack, I'm looking at Fritz getting dogs at c2 and c4, then passing a rabbit through the trap.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 2nd, 2010, 1:31am
We don't have much time ...
there are proposals so far:

1) he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
   ef4e Hg3s eg4s dc4w?
2) Rh2n Db3n Ee5n Ee6w
     ra7s ra6s rb8s rb8e? ... what else?
      E>d4
       hf2 Rg2
        dc4x Ec4 Re3 and we are OK

3) Dg7e Dh7s Dh6s Rh2n
    rc5x + xxx xxx silver seems OK, with just cat for rabbit
    .. or is the
      rh4w Dh5s Dh4n Rh3n danger enough?

It seems to me we have good chances in the 2nd variant.
Please argue fast.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 2nd, 2010, 3:09am

on 05/02/10 at 01:31:50, Hippo wrote:
1) he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
   ef4e Hg3s eg4s dc4w?

36g Rh2n Dg7ess
and it seems we can force the e to defend the g file so we can capture the h.


on 05/02/10 at 01:31:50, Hippo wrote:
2) Rh2n Db3n Ee5n Ee6w
     ra7s ra6s rb8s rb8e? ... what else?
      E>d4
       hf2 Rg2
        dc4x Ec4 Re3 and we are OK

I still really like this move.  But I'm not good at goal races, and had wished to see a full mob confirm we can win and silver doesn't have some tactic to get to goal faster.  So far we are 2 in favor and 1 against this one!


on 05/02/10 at 01:31:50, Hippo wrote:
3) Dg7e Dh7s Dh6s Rh2n
    rc5x + xxx xxx silver seems OK, with just cat for rabbit
    .. or is the
      rh4w Dh5s Dh4n Rh3n danger enough?

I believe this was a suggestion for after choice 1 (taking the h hostage) as a way to make progress towards goal.

I had been a bit pessimistic about the game after so little discussion this week.  But both of these options seem good right now.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 2nd, 2010, 4:00am

on 05/02/10 at 03:09:25, Nombril wrote:
36g Rh2n Dg7ess
and it seems we can force the e to defend the g file so we can capture the h.


I cannot see the h capture. I see only Rc5 capture.


on 05/02/10 at 03:09:25, Nombril wrote:
I still really like this move.  But I'm not good at goal races, and had wished to see a full mob confirm we can win and silver doesn't have some tactic to get to goal faster.  So far we are 2 in favor and 1 against this one!

It seems to me silver needs at least 2 defense steps. I cannot see 2 step dangerous f3 trap attack.

But I am not sure with following line:
35g Ed6 Db4 Rh3
35s hb3
36g rb6x Rd3
36s rr b6 c7

What about
35g Ed6 Db4 Rh3
35s hd3 r?c7
36g Db6 ca5 ra6 with Rb7 threat
36s Cb2x rb4      with goal counterthreat
37g dd4 Ed5 Rc6 Cb3 with stronger goal threat
37s ed6
38g rg4 Rh4        with another goal threat
38s dg5          
39g Ed3 he3 xxx no goals pending
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by chessandgo on May 2nd, 2010, 5:10am

on 04/25/10 at 18:07:30, Nombril wrote:
does
35g he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
35s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5s dd4s


Looks like it does, I can't find a move for gold (36g Ee3n dd3e de3e Ee4s 36s Rf2e df3s Rd2s he2w for example and we can't capture twice on c3 without letting the rh4 goal I think).


on 04/28/10 at 18:59:29, Nombril wrote:
It seems like a race that we can win.  After
35g Ee5n Ee6w Db3n (+ Rh2n?)
What do you see silver doing to stop the attack at c6?


I don't think we have much around c6. Silver controls c7 and c5, with many pieces available to block our single advanced rabbit (compare with the Hg3 as only south-east defender).


on 04/28/10 at 18:59:29, Nombril wrote:
Looking at it tonight, the straight forward horse hostage does seem to be the safer route to take.  But I'm nervous that Fritz would leave such an obvious hostage available to us - are we missing something?


That a hostage is only midly important compared to trap control and goal threats.


on 04/28/10 at 07:24:24, RonWeasley wrote:
I would like to consider trying to advance rabbits up the h-file.


I agree, but the first three steps of our previous move worked unfavorably to this plan; to be consistent, we have to find a way to capture something on c3. Otherwise we have wasted basically 6 steps, as we will need to undo the first three steps of 34g at some point to go back to goal attack.



How about 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s? (or alternatively rf7s Dg7w)? Silver needs 2 steps to cover c3, two steps to capture the Rc5, and I don't what to defend f6. Silver could proceed with the eastern attack, like 35s ef4e Hg3w eg4s rh4s.

Maybe 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s
35s ef4e Hg3w eg4s rh4s
36g he3s Ee4s Rf2e Hf3s
36s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5s dd4s
37g Ee3n dd3e de3e Ee4s
is fine for us though.

Also, 35g rg6e Dg7s he4s Ee5s
35s rh4s ef4s Hg3n ef3e
36g he3w Ee4s Rf2n Rf3n seems possibly ok for us.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by chessandgo on May 2nd, 2010, 5:18am

on 05/02/10 at 01:31:50, Hippo wrote:
1) (35g) he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
   (35s) ef4e Hg3s eg4s dc4w?

This 35s doesn't look problematic, our Horse is still defending efficiently against goal and our Rf2 is ready to take off. 36g Rf2nnne or 36g Rf2nn rg6e Dg7s look good for us.

35s ef4e Hg3w eg4s rh4s would be a much sharper answer imo (as mentioned previously, the calmer 35s dd5ss Rc5nx cb5e looks very tough to meet as well).
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by chessandgo on May 2nd, 2010, 5:22am

on 05/02/10 at 01:31:50, Hippo wrote:
2) Rh2n Db3n Ee5n Ee6w
 


This move is a big no-no. What was the point of 34g if we move our Elephant to d6?
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 2nd, 2010, 7:10am

on 05/02/10 at 04:00:26, Hippo wrote:
I cannot see the h capture. I see only Rc5

With
35g he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
35s ef4e Hg3s eg4s dc4w
36g Rh2n Dg7ess
We should be able to pull the silver rabbit north, and have two rabbits on the g-file, allowing them to continue moving north.  Eventually the e needs to go north to defend against the goal threat, giving us the chance to take the h.  Looking at it again, I guess a sliver dog could come across to defend, but I think that would allow us to start taking pieces at c3?


on 05/02/10 at 04:00:26, Hippo wrote:
But I am not sure with following line:
35g Ed6 Db4 Rh3
35s hb3
36g rb6x Rd3
36s rr b6 c7

I think
37g rf7n Dg7www
keeps our goal attack moving fast enough.


on 05/02/10 at 05:10:08, chessandgo wrote:
How about 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s? (or alternatively rf7s Dg7w)?

This is my new favorite - it gives us lots of options.  I've tried lots of silver responses, and don't see any problems for us.


on 05/02/10 at 05:22:17, chessandgo wrote:
This move is a big no-no. What was the point of 34g if we move our Elephant to d6?

If we have a good reason, I think it is OK to change our mind.  But now that we have a better option, we don't need to!   :P
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 2nd, 2010, 7:15am

on 05/02/10 at 05:10:08, chessandgo wrote:
How about 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s? (or alternatively rf7s Dg7w)? Silver needs 2 steps to cover c3, two steps to capture the Rc5, and I don't what to defend f6. Silver could proceed with the eastern attack, like 35s ef4e Hg3w eg4s rh4s.

Maybe 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s
35s ef4e Hg3w eg4s rh4s
36g he3s Ee4s Rf2e Hf3s
36s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5s dd4s
37g Ee3n dd3e de3e Ee4s
is fine for us though.

Also, 35g rg6e Dg7s he4s Ee5s
35s rh4s ef4s Hg3n ef3e
36g he3w Ee4s Rf2n Rf3n seems possibly ok for us.


Happy to see you there ... that looks well.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 2nd, 2010, 8:51am

on 05/02/10 at 05:10:08, chessandgo wrote:
(or alternatively rf7s Dg7w)?

Would rf7n be better than s?

Any pro/con to pushing the different rabbits?  My impression:

Pushing the rf7 gives us a chance to go to c7 if our Rc5 isn't taken on 35s.

Pushing the rg6 gives us the chance to help on the g-file, attack or defense as needed.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by RonWeasley on May 2nd, 2010, 10:04am

on 05/02/10 at 05:10:08, chessandgo wrote:
How about 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s? (or alternatively rf7s Dg7w)?

I looked at various ways to push the rabbits and prefer rg6e Dg7s.  This brings the dog closer to f3 where I think the next tactical battle will be.  I looked at silver pushing his E through to f2.  I think we push the silver H to d3 and proceed to use our dog and horse to push our rabbits forward in the east.

I'll start a vote now but start a voice vote too for

35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s

I'm one, if we get five (since we seem to have only seven mobsters voting these days), I'll move it.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 2nd, 2010, 10:19am

on 05/02/10 at 05:10:08, chessandgo wrote:
How about 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s? (or alternatively rf7s Dg7w)? Silver needs 2 steps to cover c3, two steps to capture the Rc5, and I don't what to defend f6. Silver could proceed with the eastern attack, like 35s ef4e Hg3w eg4s rh4s.

Maybe 35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s
35s ef4e Hg3w eg4s rh4s
36g he3s Ee4s Rf2e Hf3s
36s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5s dd4s
37g Ee3n dd3e de3e Ee4s
is fine for us though.


What after
36s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5n dd6e?
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 2nd, 2010, 10:43am

on 05/02/10 at 10:19:50, Hippo wrote:
What after
36s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5n dd6e?

Capture dc4.  I think we can get back and defend f3 w/ E without a concern.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 2nd, 2010, 10:45am

on 05/02/10 at 10:04:27, RonWeasley wrote:
I'll start a vote now but start a voice vote too for

35g he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s

+1
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 2nd, 2010, 11:05am

on 05/02/10 at 10:43:59, Nombril wrote:
Capture dc4.  I think we can get back and defend f3 w/ E without a concern.

?? Are not we losing the Hf2 by 37s eg3sw Rg2s Hf2nx ??

(I am not speaking about 35s, but about 36s in c&g variant)
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 2nd, 2010, 11:21am
Sorry, I see where you mean now.  Hmm.  We can move Rh1w, plus maybe ra4e Ca3n Ra2n?  and start advancing a C and R up the a-file?

Unless Fritz flips Rg2 to f3, it will then be possible to capture on c3, either the r or the d.

Or we could consider trying to pull the h3 rabbit back north...though this could be slow.  Not sure where silver can make progress while we do these things...
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by chessandgo on May 2nd, 2010, 12:53pm

on 05/02/10 at 08:51:39, Nombril wrote:
Would rf7n


I yes sorry, I meant rf7n indeed, thanks. I guess it doesn't help to confuse north and south to discuss arimaa. I had a logics teacher who confused true and false, it was cool as well :)


on 05/02/10 at 10:19:50, Hippo wrote:
What after
36s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e dd5n dd6e?


looks bad for us :(
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 2nd, 2010, 1:10pm
We don't have much time ...
there are proposals so far:

1) he4s Ee5s he3s Ee4s
   ef4e Hg3s eg4s dc4w?
2) Rh2n Db3n Ee5n Ee6w
     ra7s ra6s rb8s rb8e? ... what else?
      E>d4
       hf2 Rg2
        dc4x Ec4 Re3 and we are OK

3) Dg7e Dh7s Dh6s Rh2n
    rc5x + xxx xxx silver seems OK, with just cat for rabbit
    .. or is the
      rh4w Dh5s Dh4n Rh3n danger enough?

4) he4s Ee5s + Dg7 pushing a rabbit out of trap
     rh4s ef4e Hg3w eg4s
      he3s Eh4s Rf2e Hf3s
       Rc5nx cb5e Dd5n Dd6e
        looks bad for us

Except the historic heuristic what is the problem with 2nd variant could you provide an example move sequence?
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by aaaa on May 2nd, 2010, 2:11pm
My bot came up with the following:
 35g Db3n dd5n Ee5w Ed5s
35s he4n ef4w ee4s ee3w
36g Ed4e Ee4w he5s Ca3e
36s ed3e he4n he5n ee3w
37g Ed4n dc4e dd6n Ed5n
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 3rd, 2010, 12:10am
I am still not sure what to play ... are we still winning?
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 3rd, 2010, 3:39am
Hippo - I think we are still winning with at least 3 of these moves.  I'm back to the first plan of putting the E by c6.  Two people have said this is a bad idea, but noone has shown a line that is bad.  Yes, we only have E and R to start with on the attack, but two D can get there in a turn each.

I agree with chessandgo that it is some wasted steps from our previous moves.  But I think part of our move was not just to take the h hostage, but prevent the h from getting to f6 and our lonely D.  And Fritzlein has spent some steps putting our rabbit further from his e, to make our goal attack easier if we switch course.

Also, it seems the moves aren't written correctly.  Wasn't the original proposal by chessandgo he4s Ee5s rg6e Dg7s ?  I have assumed that the move he4s Ee5s rg6s Dg7s (and description r->f6) is actually rg6e (r -> h6).  For the other two moves with Dg7e I assume this is actually w.  And the cardinal direction in the move is the correct direction, not the ending position description (which is reversed).  I hope others are making the same assumptions?  {but the notation has always confused me - since I have no experience at chess}
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Hippo on May 3rd, 2010, 3:46am
Yes, I have e-mailed this voting pool inaccuracy to Ron.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by RonWeasley on May 3rd, 2010, 5:14am
Sorry about the mistakes on the vote.  I'm resending.

In light of latest discussion, I'm supporting Rh2n Db3n Ee5n Ee6w.  Given the trouble we get on the east from a silver rabbit getting to h3, I think we're forced to put ours there.  Starting a new goal threat through c6 seems like the strongest counterplay.  I don't worry about reversing steps.  We don't seem to be in agreement, but if anyone wants to voice vote for this move, I will play it if we get 5.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by Nombril on May 3rd, 2010, 5:24am
After some back and forth, I'm at Rh2n Db3n Ee5n Ee6w also.
+1
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by chessandgo on May 3rd, 2010, 8:10am
I really think that the focus, for both gold and silver, is on the eastern wing. If one players attacks on the west and another on the east, the latter will prevail. As for our goal attack for example, there are three silver defenders in the west and a single one in the east.
Title: Re: Move 35
Post by RonWeasley on May 4th, 2010, 4:12am
The winner, with only 5 votes cast, Rh2n Db3n Ee5n Ee6w.

It took three tries for me to get the candidate moves right.  And the few remaining mobsters were not very confident in this move.  Perhaps this will confuse Fritz as much as us.


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