Arimaa Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Arimaa Forum
        (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> 2015 move 8
        
(Message started by: clyring on Oct 17^th, 2015, 2:37pm)

Title: 2015 move 8
Post by clyring on Oct 17^th, 2015, 2:37pm

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=r1r1rr/rrc2c/Hh1dd1rr/5ER/R3e1mh/1M4H/R1CDDC1R/1RR2RR
7s rg7s ed4e Rg4n mf4e has been played.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by deep_blue on Oct 17^th, 2015, 4:49pm

I think on this move we should start to try building an analysis tree. We must be careful to not lose to Sharp's strong tactics.

My first instincts:
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s (Ma5:h) to try a counter attack or
8g Rh2n Rg1n Cf2n Rf1n to try lock down the south east.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by half_integer on Oct 17^th, 2015, 6:27pm

At first blush, g5e Ef5ew g6s looks like a possibility. It keeps the camel from making an easy retreat.

If we do not move in the east, how do we respond to h6s g6e g5n mg4n?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by chessandgo on Oct 18^th, 2015, 2:50am

When silver advances the camel in the first place, we don't need to worry about it retreating. We can play Eg5, but more to threaten a capture temporarily while we attack on the b-file than anything else.

Sharp playing rg6 seems like a significant concession to me, I like our position with the advanced (non-endangered) Rabbit.

Modifying Hippo's line transposed from the 7g thread:
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s(w) hb6s
8s ee4e Hg3w mg4s hh4w
fails to
9g De2n Dd2e Mb4s hb5s
Also
8s ee4e Hg3e mg4s hh4w
9g Mb4s hb5s De2n Rg5e
Seems ok for us?
Also
8s mg4w Hg3n hh4s hh3w
9g Hg4e mf4e Ef5s De2n
looks good.
Finally:
8s ee4w ed4w ec4e Mb4e
9g Cc2n Rc1n Mc4w Ef5s/Rg5e
looks good for us too?
So what about pulling that horse?

Just playing Rh5e or Rh5e Ef5e or Rh5e Ef5s could be fine too, but with only 2 or 3 steps in the west we'd be achieving a lot less.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by deep_blue on Oct 18^th, 2015, 4:48am

Jean's lines look fine though as I mentioned above I'd rather play Ma5. This prevents the camel from immediately getting threatened while I don't see disadvantages. The only thing I could imagine is that with camel pushing the horse it might be frozen on b5. It can be unfrozen with the Horse of course but that might still be a bit worrying.

Analysis tree (with what we think the minimax value might be; feel free to correct my evaluations):
A - 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h) +=
A1 - - 8s ee4e Hg3w mg4s hh4w +/-
A11 - - - 9g De2n Dd2e Mb4s hb5s +/-
A2 - - 8s ee4e Hg3e mg4s hh4w +=
A21 - - - 9g Mb4s hb5s De2n Rg5e +=
A3 - - 8s mg4w Hg3n hh4s hh3w +/-
A31 - - - 9g Hg4e mf4e Ef5s De2n +/-
A4 - - 8s ee4w ed4w ec4e Mb4e +=
A41 - - - 9g Cc2n Rc1n Mc4w Ef5s/Rg5e +=
A5 - - 8s rh6s rg6e Rg5n mg4n +-
A51 - - - 9g Mb4s hb5s mg5s Ef5e +-

B - 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by half_integer on Oct 18^th, 2015, 1:13pm

For line B I am initially concerned by 8s ee4w ed4w ec4w hb5n. We can pull-and-replace the silver camel to create a quicker threat, but is there a chance we lose on tactics to something like
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w ec4w hb5n
9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w Hg3n
9s hh4s hh3w X X

The hanging cat at c2 is not initially of much concern as long as there are larger threats, but it is possible that it tips the balance in a tactical fight as the larger threats are covered.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by clyring on Oct 18^th, 2015, 3:46pm

Some thoughts on the lines in deep's table:
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h)
8s ee4e Hg3w mg4s hh4w
9g De2n Dd2e Mb4s hb5s
We seem to get material or a good camel hostage tactically, but even if not, our piece alignment is great.

8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h)
8s ee4e Hg3e mg4s hh4w
9g Mb4s hb5s De2n Rg5e
I'm not sure about Rg5e, but it seems okay. Silver probably must offer a sacrifice if this line is correct.
9s mg3w Cf2e mf3s hg4s
10g Mb3e hb4s Mc3e hb3e hc3x
10s ef4w De3e Df3x ee4s de6s
11g Ef5s Ha6e Ra4n Ra5n
11s de5s re8s re7s re6s and it's raining silver pieces, but on the other hand the silver goal defense can become weak easily. I think I favor us here, but there will of course be a huge fight. We can also try to decline the sacrifice with 10g Ef5w Ee5s De3w Ee4s, but I can't assess the position after the simple 10s ef4w ee4w ed4w hb4n. If necessary we could also play something more defensive on 9g.

8s mg4w Hg3n hh4s hh3w
9g Hg4e mf4e Ef5s De2n
I don't strongly like this position. (But I also don't dislike it.)

8s ee4w ed4w ec4e Mb4e doesn't scare me because of the mentioned 9g Cc2n Rc1n Mc4w *.
8s rh6s rg6e Rg5n mg4n agreed refuted by 9g Mb4s hb5s mg5s Ef5e.

8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s
The camel is less quickly threatened on a5, but is also less easily retreated and even without an immediate move such as half_integer's ee4www hb5n cannot as safely continue to drag out the horse as from b4.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by chessandgo on Oct 18^th, 2015, 3:59pm

on 10/18/15 at 15:46:58, clyring wrote:

Doesn't 10g Ef5e Eg5s hg3s Eg4s instead win material outright?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by chessandgo on Oct 18^th, 2015, 4:03pm

on 10/18/15 at 04:48:17, deep_blue wrote:

Jean's lines look fine though as I mentioned above I'd rather play Ma5.

With b4 being unfrozen for us, I can't really see a downside to being on b4 versus a5.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by clyring on Oct 18^th, 2015, 4:08pm

on 10/18/15 at 15:46:58, clyring wrote:

8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h)
8s ee4e Hg3e mg4s hh4w
9g Mb4s hb5s De2n Rg5e
I'm not sure about Rg5e, but it seems okay. Silver probably must offer a sacrifice if this line is correct.
9s mg3w Cf2e mf3s hg4s
10g Mb3e hb4s Mc3e hb3e hc3x
10s ef4w De3e Df3x ee4s de6s
11g Ef5s Ha6e Ra4n Ra5n
11s de5s re8s re7s re6s and it's raining silver pieces, but on the other hand the silver goal defense can become weak easily. I think I favor us here, but there will of course be a huge fight. We can also try to decline the sacrifice with 10g Ef5w Ee5s De3w Ee4s, but I can't assess the position after the simple 10s ef4w ee4w ed4w hb4n. If necessary we could also play something more defensive on 9g.

on 10/18/15 at 15:59:30, chessandgo wrote:

Doesn't 10g Ef5e Eg5s hg3s Eg4s instead win material outright?

Not a legal move. (But this is why I didn't give a line for Cf2w instead of Cf2e on 9s.)

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by half_integer on Oct 18^th, 2015, 8:48pm

on 10/18/15 at 16:08:36, clyring wrote:

Not a legal move. (But this is why I didn't give a line for Cf2w instead of Cf2e on 9s.)

And hg3w Eg4s leads to a home dog frame - not a very desirable situation.

9s mg3w Cf2e mf3s hg4s is a strong response, but I also looked at

9s mg3w De3n mf3w me3w
10g Ef5w De4w Ee5s Ee4s
10s dd6w dc6s dc5s hg4s
or similar. Is it clear who comes out ahead from a line like this?

I don't find any disagreement with clyring's set of lines. It seems like we are settling initially on the horse pull being a good line. It's always a little unsettling to feel that not all lines are being explored, but if we are confident we're not missing a damaging reply then I am happy with it.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by SilverMitt on Oct 19^th, 2015, 1:43am

Let me just say for now that I'm really surprised at the g6 step from silver.

However, our g5 rabbit would be in the way if silver can get the h5 step in, as well, which could potentially make it a lot easier for the silver elephant to go west.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by chessandgo on Oct 19^th, 2015, 4:27am

on 10/18/15 at 16:08:36, clyring wrote:

Not a legal move. (But this is why I didn't give a line for Cf2w instead of Cf2e on 9s.)

Oh, sorry. In my defense, I have this condition. East-west dyslexia. I still like all proposed lines for Gold after this 8s, and I don't expect sharp to give up material for unclear strategic advantage.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by chessandgo on Oct 19^th, 2015, 4:36am

on 10/18/15 at 20:48:18, half_integer wrote:

I also looked at

9s mg3w De3n mf3w me3w10g Ef5w Ee5w Ed5s Hh3w

10g Ef5w Ee5w Ed5s Hh3w ?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by SilverMitt on Oct 19^th, 2015, 12:20pm

Is there a good team analysis tool for Arimaa? Or perhaps a sufficiently flexible one for chess that could work? I'm thinking maybe something similar to harvey's pages for the Oracle puzzles.

I've looked through all the given lines now. The sort of response I want analyzed to the main 8g (Mb4:H) is 8s h5 Ec4 x.

The sort of 8g I'd like to consider is 8g gh5 h3 a5 Mb4.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hufflepup on Oct 20^th, 2015, 12:59pm

If we played 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hh6s silver could reply with
8s: ee4w ed4w rh6s de6s

Then

9g: Ef5s Ef4n Mg4w Hg4n
9s: hh4s hh3w dd6e de5s

Gives silver too strong a control of f3.

9g:Ef5s Ef4n Mg4w De3n allows the camel to escape with
9s hh4w mf4w me4w md5n silver can now take the a6 horse hostage with the camel next turn if we don't retreat it.

Moving the elephant to f4 on 9g would allow something like 9s: mg4n Rg5w Ec4n Mb4e shutting down the attack and winning the rabbit.

It looks to me as if an rh5 step on 8s would make it difficult to make a threat in the east allowing the siler elephant to head west to stop our attack.

8g gh5 h3 a5 Mb4. Would still allow silver to blockade f5 with
8s: rg6s cf7e cg7s rf7s but we would gain at least two steps so this may be OK.

What if we went for a slower attack with 8g Ra4n Mb4n Mb3n Ra3n ?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by SilverMitt on Oct 20^th, 2015, 4:19pm

on 10/20/15 at 12:59:59, Hufflepup wrote:

...

8g gh5 h3 a5 Mb4. Would still allow silver to blockade f5 with
8s: rg6s cf7e cg7s rf7s but we would gain at least two steps so this may be OK.

...

One of the points of the h3 step is to threaten 9g Hf3 E:Mg3, which that 8s (I'm assuming it is 8s g5 Cg6 f7) does not defend against.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hippo on Oct 21^st, 2015, 5:05pm

I am also a bit afraid of :se c4 x x,
but what is wrong with
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w de6s rh6s
9g de5s Ef5w de4s Ee5s

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by SilverMitt on Oct 21^st, 2015, 6:45pm

on 10/21/15 at 17:05:00, Hippo wrote:

I am also a bit afraid of :se c4 x x,
but what is wrong with
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w de6s rh6s
9g de5s Ef5w de4s Ee5s

9s Mf4:H Hg3 seems strong to me.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by browni3141 on Oct 21^st, 2015, 11:38pm

Hufflepup's post seems pretty spot on, as far as I can tell. Without seeing a great continuation to his proposed reply to pulling the horse this move, it seems hasty. Rh2n/g1n and moreso Rg5e are both positionally important to play. The rabbit on h5 is relatively safe while hindering silver's mobility, and on g5 now it is potentially blocking our own mobility. h3n prevents an immediate horse intrusion and threatens to take the camel hostage.

I think the main choice is between a tactical, forcing move or a slower positional move containing h2n/g1n and g5e.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hufflepup on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 3:25am

Even 8g: gh5 h3 a5 Mb4 might be too quick.

8s: ee4w ed4w ece4 Mb4n
9g: Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n
9s: eb4e ec4n Mc5e re1s
10g: Dd2n Md5n Dd6n Dd4n
10s: de6s ec5n ec6e Md6e

Looks very bad for us.

I don't think we can safely make a fast attack with the current position, and that we will need to play a slower developing move.

8g: Rh2n Rg5e Ra4n Dd2n ?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by chessandgo on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 4:11am

What's wrong with
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s ee4w ed4w rh6s de6s
9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w Rh2n
9s dd6e de5s mf4e rb7s
10g Ef5s Hg3w mg4s Ef4e
(edit:
9s hh4w mf4w me4w md4n
might be a better try. The position looks very messy)

I agree that Rh5 and Rh3 would be nice steps. If 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s is too forcing for silver to take advantage of us not playing these steps right away, it's probably the better move, if there is a "tactical" refutation, then 8g Rg5e Rh2n x x should be fine.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by chessandgo on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 4:15am

on 10/22/15 at 03:25:54, Hufflepup wrote:

Even 8g: gh5 h3 a5 Mb4 might be too quick.

8s: ee4w ed4w ece4 Mb4n
9g: Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n

How about 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5e?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hufflepup on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 7:37am

Quote:

With the second 9s silver is threatening to take the a6 hostage with the camel, and then to capture it next turn. If we moved our elephant west to protect it we lose the advanced rabbit without gaining a good attack in the west. Something like 10g: Ef5s Ef4n hg4w De2n would slow silver down, but 10s: de5s hf4e md5w hb5w still leaves us in a bad position.

Quote:

How about 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5e?

That looks like a good reply to me.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by SilverMitt on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 12:41pm

Given the past voting process, it might be good to suggest and analyze additional moves starting with 8g gh5 h3 x x, such as 8g gh5 h3 gh2. The Mb4 step does seem like it should be accompanied with a5, because otherwise we don't have the extra step to respond to 9s E:Mb5.

Also, after 8g Mb4:H 8s Ec4 h5 De5, our camel is still less vulnerable than the silver camel (our weakness is the g5 rabbit). Retreating the camel on 9g would be at best a wash in terms of time used if the silver elephant returns east unless we can pull off 9g Mb3:H Hb6; keeping it on b4 is quite tactical, though it can't be flipped to c5 yet.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hippo on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 2:17pm

on 10/22/15 at 04:15:11, chessandgo wrote:

How about 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5e?

Are we OK after silver pushing Mc6? It seems to me trade is better for silver and it's hard to prevent it.

May be I am wrong ... if the trade ends with both MH for mh traded, our advanced rabbits would become strong.

But I am not sure we could trade both MH for mh ...

Is :Rh5, g2, h3 Eg5 an option? ... if m runs west, E could follow and pull :rg5 meanwhile

But 8s ee3 mf4 hh3 Rh2 looks fine for silver with Rg2 h2 formation I dislike ...
May be we would be fine after
9g Ef5 rg5 Mb4 Ra3
9s Hf3 hg3
10g Mb5 Ra5 Ef4 mg4

The position is messy ... I have
8g Rh2n Rg1n Rg5e Ef5e
8s mg4w ee4s Rh3s hh4s
9g Eg5w rg6s Mb3n Ra2n
9s rf8e rg8s rg7s rg5s
10g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e
10s mf4w me4w md4w mc4n
11g Ef5w Ee5w Mb4s hb5s
11s ee3w ed3n ed4w mc5w
12g Ed5w mb5w Ec5w Hb6w

as another line ...
but
10s Hf3 hg3 looks much stronger with rg4

OK I don't like Eg5 step
What about 8g Rh5, h3, h2?

Seems after 8s hh5 mh4 Rg5 Ed4 silver is fine, mh are safe and e could defend west.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by deep_blue on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 3:02pm

Vote will start soon so here is the list of so far discussed moves (and maybe when I'll eventually start the poll I'll try to post a full analysis tree):
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s (Ma5:h)
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h)
8g Rg5e Rh2n Ra4n Mb3n (gh5 h3 a5 Mb4)
8g Rg5e Rh2n Rg1n Rg2e (gh5 h3 gh2)
8g Rh2n Rg1n Rg5e Ef5e
8g Rg5e Ef5e Eg5w rg6s (H5 g5)

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hippo on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 3:14pm

What about 8g Rh5 rg5?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hufflepup on Oct 22^nd, 2015, 6:28pm

Quote:

Good point.

I think the advanced rabbits are more of a libaility then an asset as one of them will probably be captured as well.

10s: eb4e Mc5n ec4n hb5s
11g: mg4w Eg5s mg4sx Eg4w (We have to take he camel now otherwise it could easily escape e.g. 11s de6s mg4w mf4n mf5n)
11s: ec5w Hb6w eb5n hb5n
12g: Ef4e Eg4n hh4w Dd2n
12s: eb6e Ha6e ec6s Hb6ex
13g: hg4w Eg5s hf4sx Eg4w
13s: Ra5n hb6w Ra6e ha5n

There is now no way to stop the rabbit being lost next turn.

Even if we could avoid losing the rabbit I would be opposed to an avoidable equal trade if it didn't lead to some clear advantage.

Can we include a slower developmental move in the poll, like 8g Rg5e Rh2n Ra4n Dd3n ?

Our camel won't be in any immediate answer and the advanced dog will be in a better position to unfreeze the camel once it does advance on f6.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hippo on Oct 23^rd, 2015, 2:42am

In the trading variant I am afraid silver neednot continue trading at 12s and it can rather save its horse.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by SilverMitt on Oct 23^rd, 2015, 3:21pm

I'm persuaded that the Mb4 step is not good in conjunction with gh5 and h3.

The horse pull still seems unclear. After 8g Mb4:H 8s Ec4 h5 De5, aside from the g5 rabbit, we still have a lot of positional factors in our favor.

I don't know what to expect from silver after 8g gh5 h3 gh2. Perhaps 8s Mg5:H H:hg3?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hufflepup on Oct 24^th, 2015, 5:21pm

What happened to my suggestion of 8g Rg5e Rh2n Ra4n Dd3n ?

An alternative response to
8g: Rg5e Rh2n Ra4n Mb3n
8s: ee4e ed4e ec4e Mb4n
is the run away defence
9g: Mb5e Mc5e Md5s Md4s
This would cost both sides the same number of steps to return the M and e to the original positions, so on second thoughts this looks like a viable move.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by browni3141 on Oct 24^th, 2015, 11:03pm

Has this line been considered?

8g Mb3n Ra4n Rg5e Rh2n
8s ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w
9g hb6e Mb5n Mb6s Ha6e
9s eb4s eb3s Cc2n Cc3x eb2e
10g Hg3w Ef5e mg4s Eg5s
10s Dd2s ec2e ed2n ed3e
11g Hf3n Mb5e Mc5e hc6s

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hippo on Oct 25^th, 2015, 5:22am

on 10/24/15 at 23:03:07, browni3141 wrote:

And what about silver trading m for DCR, would you prefere stronger or bigger army?

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by browni3141 on Oct 25^th, 2015, 12:59pm

on 10/25/15 at 05:22:54, Hippo wrote:

And what about silver trading m for DCR, would you prefere stronger or bigger army?

We retain a big positional advantage, so I much prefer gold.

10s ec2w Dd2w Dc2n Dc3x eb2e
11g Hf3w mg3w mf3x Eg4s Eg3n

Gold is clearly winning.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by deep_blue on Oct 25^th, 2015, 4:25pm

BETA TREE (sorry, have to go, this tree is incomplete, its up to (not including) post #25 by Hippo)
Analysis tree (with what we think the minimax value might be; feel free to correct my evaluations):
A - 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h) +=
A1 - - 8s ee4e Hg3w mg4s hh4w +/-
A11 - - - 9g De2n Dd2e Mb4s hb5s +/-

A2 - - 8s ee4e Hg3e mg4s hh4w +=
A21 - - - 9g Mb4s hb5s De2n Rg5e +=
A211 - - - - 9s mg3w Cf2e mf3s hg4s
A2111 - - - - - 10g Mb3e hb4s Mc3e hb3e hc3x
A21111 - - - - - - 10s ef4w De3e Df3x ee4s de6s
A211111 - - - - - - - 11g Ef5s Ha6e Ra4n Ra5n
A2111111 - - - - - - - - 11s de5s re8s re7s re6s
A2112 - - - - - 10g Ef5w Ee5s De3w Ee4s
A21121 - - - - - - 10s ef4w ee4w ed4w hb4n
A212 - - - - 9s mg3w De3n mf3w me3w
A2121 - - - - - 10g Ef5w De4w Ee5s Ee4s
A21211 - - - - - - 10s dd6w dc6s dc5s hg4s
A2122 - - - - - 10g Ef5w Ee5w Ed5s Hh3w

A3 - - 8s mg4w Hg3n hh4s hh3w +/-
A31 - - - 9g Hg4e mf4e Ef5s De2n +/-

A4 - - 8s ee4w ed4w ec4e Mb4e +=
A41 - - - 9g Cc2n Rc1n Mc4w Ef5s/Rg5e +=

A5 - - 8s rh6s rg6e Rg5n mg4n +-
A51 - - - 9g Mb4s hb5s mg5s Ef5e +-

A6 - - 8s ee4w ed4w rh6s de6s
A61 - - - 9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w Hg3n
A611 - - - - 9s hh4s hh3w dd6e de5s
A62 - - - 9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w De2n
A621 - - - - 9s hh4w mf4w me4w md5n
A63 - - - 9g de5s Ef5w de4s Ee5s
A631 - - - - 9s mg4w Hg3n hh4s hh3w
A64 - - - 9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w Rh2n
A641 - - - - 9s dd6e de5s mf4e rb7s
A6411 - - - - - 10g Ef5s Hg3w mg4s Ef4e
A642 - - - - 9s hh4w mf4w me4w md4n
A6421 - - - - - 10g Ef5s Ef4n hg4w De2n
A64211 - - - - - - 10s de5s hf4e md5w hb5w

B - 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s
B1 - - 8s ee4w ed4w ec4w hb5n
B11 - - - 9g Ef5s Ef4n mg4w Hg3n
B111 - - - - 9s hh4s hh3w X X

C - 8g Rg5e Rh2n Ra4n Mb3n
C1 - - 8s rg6s cf7e cg7s rf8s
C11 - - - 9g Hg3w Ef5s mg4s Ef4e

C2 - - 8s ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w
C21 - - - 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n
C211 - - - - 9s eb4e ec4n Mc5e re8s
C2111 - - - - - 10g Dd2n Md5n Dd6n Dd4n
C21111 - - - - - - 10s de6s ec5n ec6e Md6e
C22 - - - 9g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5e

D - 8g Ra4n Mb4n Mb3n Ra3n

E - 8g Rh2n Rg5e Ra4n Dd2n

F - 8g Rg5e Rh2n Rg1e Rh1n

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hippo on Oct 26^th, 2015, 12:22pm

on 10/25/15 at 16:25:27, deep_blue wrote:

BETA TREE D - 8g Ra4n Mb4n Mb3n Ra3n

is invalid

on 10/25/15 at 16:25:27, deep_blue wrote:

BETA TREE A - 8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (Mb4:h) +=

I am not afraid of tactical answers, but rh5 ewwx let silver in very fine position (maybe x=dd6s).

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by deep_blue on Oct 26^th, 2015, 1:26pm

on 10/26/15 at 12:22:31, Hippo wrote:

is invalid

True, sorry I was just copy pasting. though Mob will move now so it won't matter now.

Quote:

I am not afraid of tactical answers, but rh5 ewwx let silver in very fine position (maybe x=dd6s).

Check A6x lines.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by Hippo on Nov 1^st, 2015, 6:13am

BTW: We have already played 2nd move what would be Haizhi pruned.

Title: Re: 2015 move 8
Post by half_integer on Nov 11^th, 2015, 7:56am

Is that true Hippo? I only see one. 3g moved four pieces, but the d file dog step depended on the camel step. 8g was four independent steps, but I think a good argument can be made that this is one of the exceptions where a Haizhi move is still good (after all, he didn't find that good players NEVER played these moves).

Conversely, sharpvector has also been playing Haizhi pruned moves. 3s is an almost-hit, like our 3g. 4s and 5s were both four independent steps. So on this metric, perhaps we are playing "better" than Sharp and lightvector :) .