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   AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning Stage)
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   Author  Topic: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning Stage)  (Read 19978 times)
Nombril
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #15 on: Feb 15th, 2011, 10:43am »
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Regarding WHR - did you happen to notice how far WHR moved over the course of the season?  Seems fixing the rating for 3 games (6 weeks) would be fine, maybe even the whole season, but I didn't look for any data to support this impression.
 
This would be a greater encouragement and advantage for newer players still on the steep part of the learning curve.
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novacat
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #16 on: Feb 15th, 2011, 9:24pm »
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FYI - Rabbits was 1451 at the beginning of the first AWL.  He was 1917 at the end.  Ocmiente began at 1478 and ended at 1760.  The rest of the Atlantics stayed a lot closer to their starting value.  
 
While most people's ratings can probably stay fixed for a season, it is important to adjust for large changes.  Thus, in the absence of automation, I am in favor of rounding in moderately large increments (I would prefer increments of 50 points or less).  I was a little weary about rounding in the AWLS, but that turned out to work fine.
 
As far as playing live matches, I think player availability will be an issue.  The Atlantics had meetings in Teamspeak last year to discuss ideas and player availability, and it was hard to agree on a time that most of the team could attend (and this was for a half hour meeting!).  
 
However, this sounds like a great idea for a field day.  Have one day in the middle of the AWL where all the teams storm the field of play and challenge each other.  The games won't count toward the regular season (or can have a small prize, such as extra budget points), and there can be as many games as there are people to play.  This way, everyone can plan to commit to a specific day, it encourages people interested in a one day event to join a team and maybe stick around longer, and it's just plain fun.  We can even use this as a time where any interactive time control can be used.
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omar
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #17 on: Feb 17th, 2011, 4:16pm »
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The current AWL rules have become quite complex in order to make sure everything is fair. Sometimes making sure things are fair gets in the way of fun. I tend to prefer simple, good and fun over complex, perfect and boring.
 
One of the things that attracted me about the AWL was that it would create a team spirit among the players. But after playing in two seasons of AWL I still don't feel the team spirit. I don't know my team mates any better than I did before the AWL.
 
There is something about being at the same place at the same time and discussing the same thing that helps build a sense of team spirit. Getting everyone together is difficult, but if I knew that by not showing up, I would let the team down, I would wake up in the middle of the night or rearrange my schedule to make it to the game. The team I was on tried to get everyone together once to just meet and chat in TS, but only a few players showed up. I think if it had been an actual game rather than just a get together more people would have come.  My BILs play a lot of cricket and during cricket season they are traveling to other cities to play their games. I find it quite amazing how much time they devote to it. It uses up their whole weekend, but they manage. And it's not just my BILs, it a team of 12 people all devoting their weekend to this. And it's not just a few teams, it's a league with like 20 teams. What makes them so devoted? Without enough players they won't be able to play and the team loses due to not having enough players. The thought that they would be letting their team down if they didn't go keeps them going. So the whole team has to go, otherwise the guys who are going start calling the guys who aren't. As difficult as the schedule may be, it adds a sense of "hey I'm wanted, the team needs me".
 
The AWL currently doesn't feel too much different than playing in the WC. Just that my performance adds to my teams points.
 
I like the idea of live games with the whole team being there at the same time. I know I would try my hardest to be at the games. I would even suggest that instead of having multiple individual games there be just one game with all the team members discussing the same game; like the team game we had during the Arimaa Online Festival. The team can discuss and decide on a move and the captain can make it on the board. The teams will have to figure out how best to communicate and organize themselves to select the move. I can see teams getting together to split up and practice this. Perhaps the best teams are not the ones with the strongest players but the ones that work together well to decide on good moves.
 
For the scheduling I think the team captains (who must be present) should negotiate a time and just go with that. If a minimum of say 3 players don't show up then the team can't play and loses by forfeit. If the time is bad for you, tough luck; your going to have to wake up in the middle of the night or take a few hours off from work, skip a class or something because your team needs you.
 
As for what team you can play on I think the LD should assign players to the team based mostly on proximity.
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Fritzlein
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #18 on: Feb 17th, 2011, 5:45pm »
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on Feb 17th, 2011, 4:16pm, omar wrote:
But after playing in two seasons of AWL I still don't feel the team spirit.

Awesome!  Since you don't feel any particular loyalty to the Atlantics, come on back to the Rockies where you belong!  I mean, seriously, look at the map.  You are clearly closer to the mountains than the sea...
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #19 on: Feb 17th, 2011, 6:01pm »
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I felt some team spirit, did my best to show up to cheer my team on and such, even when I wasn't playing. I would like to do team-matches, but I don't think that can be the only thing, otherwise, well, it seems like top-players would dominate the discussion and newer players wouldn't really have much of anything to contribute.
 
As to teams being geographically based, I wouldn't really have a problem with that, and it probably would help teams organize a little better.
 
WHR, it probably wouldn't be too hard to automate a grab each week, would it?
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novacat
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #20 on: Feb 17th, 2011, 10:52pm »
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on Feb 17th, 2011, 4:16pm, omar wrote:
One of the things that attracted me about the AWL was that it would create a team spirit among the players. But after playing in two seasons of AWL I still don't feel the team spirit. I don't know my team mates any better than I did before the AWL.

on Feb 17th, 2011, 4:16pm, omar wrote:

There is something about being at the same place at the same time and discussing the same thing that helps build a sense of team spirit.  

Sorry Omar, I guess I should have tried harder.  As captain, I got to talk to everyone, but I didn't really bring everyone together.  I do feel team spirit for the Atlantics, mostly from hanging out at random times in the chat room with a few of the teammates.  
 
I often have a pessimistic approach (something I am trying to work on), but I am actually pretty laid back and will happily try something new.
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #21 on: Feb 18th, 2011, 3:12pm »
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on Feb 17th, 2011, 5:45pm, Fritzlein wrote:

Awesome!  Since you don't feel any particular loyalty to the Atlantics, come on back to the Rockies where you belong!  I mean, seriously, look at the map.  You are clearly closer to the mountains than the sea...

 
I think I was originally on the Rockies, but at one point the Atlantics were short on players, so I had switched. I won't mind switching teams between seasons; it would help me get to know more people.
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #22 on: Feb 18th, 2011, 3:17pm »
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on Feb 17th, 2011, 10:52pm, novacat wrote:

Sorry Omar, I guess I should have tried harder.  As captain, I got to talk to everyone, but I didn't really bring everyone together.  I do feel team spirit for the Atlantics, mostly from hanging out at random times in the chat room with a few of the teammates.  

 
I think you did make a good effort. Just that coming together to chat and spar isn't as critical as coming together for a team game.
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omar
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #23 on: Feb 18th, 2011, 5:05pm »
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on Feb 17th, 2011, 6:01pm, Sconibulus wrote:
I would like to do team-matches, but I don't think that can be the only thing, otherwise, well, it seems like top-players would dominate the discussion and newer players wouldn't really have much of anything to contribute.

If I was captain, I would allow the players to discuss the position and then rotate who gets to decide the final move. Sure the top players could dominate and play the whole game, but in actuality I think they would just suggest moves and the captains would moderate and keep all the players involved.
 
Grabbing WHR values isn't hard, but I was hoping that the format could be changed to bring the players together at the same time and discussing the same game.
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megajester
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #24 on: Feb 19th, 2011, 9:56am »
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You're right that the stronger players need not necessarily dominate. I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of those who participated in the collaborative matches in the Festival last year.
 
One concern I have, is that I think that the weaker players in the team might not feel it was so important for them to turn up, compared to a situation where they are given sole responsibility for one of several games.
 
Another idea I had, separate to the live games, would be to have a separate postal league that would function in a similar way to the Mob vs. The One matches. Each team is a "mob" and debates their moves in protected threads. This could also help to develop team spirit in a similar way to the collaborative match idea. We could do it whether or not we implement a collaborative match format.
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #25 on: Feb 20th, 2011, 7:37am »
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on Feb 19th, 2011, 9:56am, megajester wrote:
Another idea I had, separate to the live games, would be to have a separate postal league that would function in a similar way to the Mob vs. The One matches. Each team is a "mob" and debates their moves in protected threads. This could also help to develop team spirit in a similar way to the collaborative match idea. We could do it whether or not we implement a collaborative match format.

 
Let's give it a try.  I'd still like to play World League matches with the same that we used last year.  Adding these collaborative postal matches would be icing on the cake.
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #26 on: Feb 20th, 2011, 9:25pm »
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on Feb 19th, 2011, 9:56am, megajester wrote:
One concern I have, is that I think that the weaker players in the team might not feel it was so important for them to turn up, compared to a situation where they are given sole responsibility for one of several games.

 
The weaker players would gain the most by being present at the games. So I am sure the ones who are interested to improve will turn up even if they are not yet contributing as much. The nice thing about this format is that everyone who wants to be involved can be, whereas with separate games the number of players that can be involved is limited by the number of games.
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omar
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #27 on: Feb 20th, 2011, 9:30pm »
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on Feb 19th, 2011, 9:56am, megajester wrote:
Another idea I had, separate to the live games, would be to have a separate postal league that would function in a similar way to the Mob vs. The One matches. Each team is a "mob" and debates their moves in protected threads. This could also help to develop team spirit in a similar way to the collaborative match idea. We could do it whether or not we implement a collaborative match format.

 
Yes, a Mob vs Mob game would be good. The Mob vs One games have taken well over a year to complete and the game can be very grueling on whoever is playing the One. So a Mob vs Mob format might be better. Also the Mob has won both games so it's about time for a Mob vs Mob game.
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #28 on: Feb 26th, 2011, 5:47am »
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Haha, Mob vs Mob looks awesome! Team members would discuss more and get to know each other better and build that elusive team spirit taller.
And the live merry mess meetups sound real fun in spite of the Earth being spherical and people not being awake at the same hours.
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megajester
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Re: AWL 2011 Comments and Suggestions (Planning St
« Reply #29 on: Apr 7th, 2011, 9:59am »
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Good news! Omar put together a Best Times calculator. This would be useful to the captains for planning those collaborative league games we were talking about.  
 
I entered all the names of the current members of the Rockies and the Ring of Fire (the two teams most likely to present problems for scheduling), deleting the ones who have not entered their times into the scheduler. It found a time that was the second-to-third choice of 12 of the 13 names. Re-sult! Cool
 
(You can play around with the tool all you want with the Membership list.)
 
So I'm thinking we should have a dry run. After the Challenge, two teams ready and willing to give it a try could volunteer. Each would put forward 3-5 names. All those players would then enter their preferred times into the scheduler. Then the captains would use the Best Time tool to negotiate a match time. When the match time came they would use the Gold and Silver rooms in Teamspeak, the rest of us could provide commentary in Teamspeak and/or the chatroom.
« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2011, 10:06am by megajester » IP Logged

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