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Arimaa >> Bot Development >> Arimaa games shared database
(Message started by: foggy on Mar 7th, 2011, 11:15am)

Title: Arimaa games shared database
Post by foggy on Mar 7th, 2011, 11:15am
Hi all!

I was (and still am) curious to see various statistics and data  of the whole Arimaa games database. It is possible to find some bits of data in the forum, like game count, move count, gold vs silver stats, openings stats and so on. However, these bits are often outdated and sparsed between various threads.

My first impulse was to download everything, write a parsing program, save all data (maybe minus irrelevant pieces, like pings and  times) in more convenient format, then use another program to go thru the data to find information I want. Or to feed data into some relational database  and use SQL queries to get info.

I guess that somebody in Arimaa community could have already done something like that. Would it be possible to share processed game data? In that case Arimaa  enthusiasts could drive their effort into making/producing/learning something new instead of reinventing the wheel.

If this is not yet done I could volunteer to do the job and try to produce some data to share with everybody, as my time and energy (much more limited that I would prefer, unfortunately) permits.

Another open question is what format would be the best to keep games in reachable and convenient format. Criteria that came to my mind are: ease to query by human, human readability (for checking reasons),  occupied space on disk, ease to query by program (machine learning and so on).

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 7th, 2011, 1:39pm

on 03/07/11 at 11:15:37, foggy wrote:
Or to feed data into some relational database and use SQL queries to get info.[...]  Would it be possible to share processed game data?

I have done this.  What do you want to know?  My inspiration for queries petered out a while ago; I would be interested if you have new ideas for what we should query.


Quote:
Another open question is what format would be the best to keep games in reachable and convenient format. Criteria that came to my mind are: ease to query by human, human readability (for checking reasons), occupied space on disk, ease to query by program (machine learning and so on).

Oh, is what you are asking for a game database in a different format than the flat text file Omar offers?  I'm afraid the demand for that is both low and fragmented.  That is to say, given any two people who want an alternate-format game database, they will consider different bits of the data relevant and/or want those bits of data presented in a different format.  There aren't enough people who want the data to create two people who want it in the same form.  The flat text file Omar offers, clunky though it is, is at least universal.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 8th, 2011, 7:46pm
I have a query for you.  

What game first used any of these setups for gold or silver:

Code:
r r r r c r r r
h h d e c r m d
. . X . . X . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . X . . X . .
H H D E C R M D
R R R R C R R R

r r r c r r r r
d m r c e d h h
. . X . . X . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . X . . X . .
D M R C E D H H
R R R C R R R R


That is, the first game in which either the gold or the silver pieces were setup like either of the positions on these two example boards.  Hope that makes sense.  

The reason I ask is that I was curious about this a while ago, and I think I know the answer.  I'm curious to know whether you can confirm this with your database.


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 8th, 2011, 7:59pm
Ah, I can try, but this is hard to do with an SQL query because the pieces of the setup can be in any order. That is to say "Ra1 Rb1 ..." is equivalent to "Rb1 Ra1 ..." I suppose this speaks to the general issue of everyone wanting a database in a different format depending on what they want to query from it.  I imagine that woh could answer this question easily from his database that he used to analyze openings.  Still, I will give it a shot.  :)

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 8th, 2011, 10:11pm
OK, that was a fun exercise in using SQL in ways it was not intended. Now that I have made and run the four queries, I can guess your motivation for asking the question. Only three people have used this setup: mojyaschik (twice); ocmiente (over a dozen times); and rabbits (over a hundred times). Actually, I didn't update my database past January, so the setup may have been used a lot since then, but your question was about the first use of the setup, so it doesn't matter.

I infer that there is a priority dispute between you and rabbits as to who used the setup first, and who copied whom. Even as I say it, I realize the argument is a straw man; you might each have come up with the setup independently. But be that argument silly or no, you lose. The first use of this setup was on September 4, 2010, in game 153540 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=153540), by rabbits as Silver. The second use was on October 9, 2010, in game 156670 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=156670), by ocmiente as Gold. That is to say, a month after rabbits first used the setup, you used it before he used it a second time. Thereafter both of you started using it much more frequently, i.e. there was a much shorter gap between uses.

Creating lots of queries of this exact type would be tedious, but doing one was actually rather fun as it challenged me to think how it could be efficiently done with just SQL and no "programming". I'm actually very impressed the that the MS Access query engine didn't barf on my spaghetti query over the whole Arimaa game database, but instead returned an answer in less than a minute. Does anyone else want to know anything? :)

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 8th, 2011, 10:22pm
Very good! I think you're correct, though I left the answer on a different machine - I'll have to come back and edit this tomorrow if I'm mistaken. I figured out the answer using C# code rather than SQL.


on 03/08/11 at 22:11:12, Fritzlein wrote:
OK, that was a fun exercise in using SQL in ways it was not intended. Now that I have made and run the four queries, I can guess your motivation for asking the question....

I infer that there is a priority dispute between you and rabbits as to who used the setup first, and who copied whom. ...


Well, not exactly. rabbits knows very well that I stole the setup from him :) And I know it too. (though when I initially borrowed it (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=152137), the camel and dog were in different places)

I do think that this is one of the best setups out there, and that it deserves to be named officially, "rabbits' setup".



Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 8th, 2011, 10:28pm

on 03/08/11 at 22:22:24, ocmiente wrote:
Well, not exactly. Rabbits knows very well that I stole the setup from him :) And I know it too.

I just think that this is one of the best setups out there, and that it deserved to be named officially, "Rabbit's setup".

Ahhh, so you just wanted to make sure no one else had used it prior to the two of you, before crediting it to rabbits. Very generous of you. Your hunch is confirmed.

In general, though, I don't think you need to be the first to use an opening to have it named after you. It might be that the first user was just messing around, didn't see the power of the idea, and never came back to it. To get your name attached to something, you need to believe in it enough to explore the consequences somewhat deeply. This could be rabbits' setup even if he wasn't the first.

On a more general note, I think it is marvelous that opening theory of Arimaa remains so fractured. A priori, one might have predicted that by now all Arimaa players would have agreed on a single best setup for Gold and a single best response for Silver. The fact that this is further from happening today than it was five years ago is a very good sign.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 8th, 2011, 11:08pm
Footnote: for the month of February, two more players were persuaded to try this setup: Better (once) and OffbeatJM (three times).  Rabbits used it four times and ocmiente fourteen times.  I guess when rabbits beat both chessandgo and Adanac at the end of January with this setup, at least a couple of people took notice.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by foggy on Mar 9th, 2011, 2:33am

on 03/07/11 at 13:39:19, Fritzlein wrote:
I have done this. What do you want to know? My inspiration for queries petered out a while ago; I would be interested if you have new ideas for what we should query.


Well, I would be interested in many queries, but I'm afraid these would present nothing new for "veterans" yet. I play Arimaa just 2 months, so everything is new, exciting and interesting for me.

The initial idea was to get the data in some way (myself or from somebody else if I'm lucky) and have possibility to "swim in it" as needed, without bothering somebody to run/present the results. And to extend such a possibility to other community members also. Fritzlein, would you care to share the data you gathered in some common format(txt,csv,xls or other)?

Another idea was to gather and present all the statistics that could be interesting to community in one place, with occasional renewal as new data(games) arrive.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by foggy on Mar 9th, 2011, 2:51am

on 03/08/11 at 19:59:23, Fritzlein wrote:
Ah, I can try, but this is hard to do with an SQL query because the pieces of the setup can be in any order. That is to say "Ra1 Rb1 ..." is equivalent to "Rb1 Ra1 ..." I suppose this speaks to the general issue of everyone wanting a database in a different format depending on what they want to query from it. I imagine that woh could answer this question easily from his database that he used to analyze openings. Still, I will give it a shot. :)


Speaking about different demands - I suppose we can find some common format that suits best for most of the people and share the effort of creating/maintaining the data.

Another idea of coming up with this thread was to launch discussion on  possible game information formats that would allow faster/easier data retrieval. For example, how initial setup data could be kept (maybe a field for rabbit formation and 8 fields for other pieces or have a flag/field for some common rabbit formations). Also rabbits can be presented by 16 bitfield, which can be treated as unsigned number for brief reference.

For initial setup analysis (and maybe board positions set analysis) I think "normalization" is needed, so that gold elephant is always on west or east, transforming position/setup with vertical mirror if needed. This effort could also be done only once and shared.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 9th, 2011, 9:37am

on 03/09/11 at 02:33:33, foggy wrote:
Fritzlein, would you care to share the data you gathered in some common format(txt,csv,xls or other)?

Sharing my database as txt would just convert it back to Omar's format with a couple of fields missing. My only value-add was putting everything into MS Access. You don't want MS Access to become the standard database format for the purpose of your project, do you? And are you sure nobody wants the fields I left out, just because I didn't want them? ;)  (If you are just thinking how to best get the data yourself, and MS Access with a few missing fields suits your needs better than Omar's text files, I'm sure we could arrange a file transfer somehow.)


Quote:
Another idea was to gather and present all the statistics that could be interesting to community in one place, with occasional renewal as new data(games) arrive.

One very cool instance of your suggestion that already happened was the ratings graph for each player. I use this feature constantly, and I think I am not the only one. A ratings history is something that I could query for myself any time I really wanted to know, and in the old days I posted a bunch of graphs for selected players, but as cool as it was I got tired of doing it. Now everyone has it at their fingertips a couple of clicks away, which rocks.

What are some of the other things you want to know? Maybe if you started listing some of those concretely, other people (including Omar) might realize that they want to know too. (Not to put too fine a point on it, but nobody jumped up and said they would write their own queries against the common data store you are proposing). If there were a particularly cool specific stat that garnered interest, maybe someone would automate it against Omar's database, as happened for the ratings graph. Concrete suggestions for "stats that it would be cool to know" might draw supporters out of the woodwork, even if the stats are ones that veterans investigated long ago but stopped producing because it was too much hassle to do manually all the time.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by mistre on Mar 9th, 2011, 11:37am
The bot bashers page -http://arimaa.com/arimaa/twiki/bin/view/Arimaa/BotBashers - has a lot of neat statistics for human-bot games. However, it has not been updated in a while and I am not sure there is interest anymore.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 10th, 2011, 4:25pm
I would be interested to see what kind of database you could come up with to make queries easier. I am definitely interested in some of the statistics.

I've been writing queries in a rather crude way - just reading in the raw data and using C# to analyze it. My concern with an SQL database is that it might not be flexible enough to do everything everyone would like, and one that is flexible enough will be too complicated for anyone to understand :)

For instance, I was interested recently to know what the most common openings for gold and silver were, accounting for symmetry (i.e don't count a setup twice if it's just a mirror or another setup).


Code:
Gold......................Silver.
Count...Setup.............Count...Setup.
25945...R H D E M D H R...20129...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
18727...R H C E M C H R...16769...r h c e m c h r
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d d r r r
13805...D H C E M C H D...13630...d h c e m c h d
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
11239...H D C E M C D H...10337...h d c e m c d h
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
4464...R D H E M H D R... 5955...r m d e h d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
4287...R H D E H D M R... 3906...r d m e h h d r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
4166...R D H E M D H R... 3809...r d m e h d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
4060...R H D E M H D R... 3795...r m d e h h d r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
2266...C H D E M D H C... 2997...r h d e h d m r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r c c r r r
1900...R H C E H C M R... 2275...c h d e m d h c
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r r r r r r
1773...R H C E M D H R... 2167...r m c e h c h r
........R R R D C R R R...........r r r d d r r r
1686...R M C E H C H R... 1808...r h c e h c m r
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d d r r r
1354...R H C E M D H R... 1353...r h c e m d h r
........R R R C D R R R...........r r r d c r r r
1222...R M D E H D H R... 874...h r c e m c r h
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r d d r r r
1215...R H D E M C H R... 850...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C D R R R...........r r c r r c r r
1038...R H R E M R H R... 813...r h r e m r h r
........R D R C C R D R...........r d r c c r d r
1011...R H D E M C H R... 775...r h d e m c h r
........R R R D C R R R...........r r r c d r r r
929...R H R E M R H R... 679...c d h e m h d c
........R C R D D R C R...........r r r r r r r r
906...R H D E M D H R... 644...r h c e d c h r
........R R C R R C R R...........r r r d m r r r
810...C D H E M H D C... 637...d h c e c d m h
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r



Sorry about all of the '.'s in there. It's my brain-dead way of trying to make sure the columns align properly. Spaces weren't working for me.

This was based on the setups from 173,001 games. Some games weren't accounted for due to setup data that wasn't easily read (and I just mean that it was easier for me not to write the extra code to handle it than to handle it), like positions with a 'takeback' used, or incomplete data.

What I thought was interesting about this was the 4th most popular setup for gold that has the horses on either end, because I don't think I've tried that one. I suppose now I should run another query to see if I have played this before. Is there a bot that uses that setup all of the time? Do people use it very often? More queries needed..

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 10th, 2011, 4:53pm
Here's another question I'd like an answer for:
How many Human vs. Human games have been played on the site?  My first shot at figuring this out came up with 8416, but that seems low.  

The database should also be able to distinguish between Human vs. Human games, bot vs. human and bot vs. bot.


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 10th, 2011, 5:16pm

on 03/10/11 at 16:25:45, ocmiente wrote:
What I thought was interesting about this was the 4th most popular setup for gold that has the horses on either end, because I don't think I've tried that one. I suppose now I should run another query to see if I have played this before. Is there a bot that uses that setup all of the time? Do people use it very often? More queries needed.

That setup was the default in the client from very early on when it seemed like a good idea, i.e. after figuring out that rabbits forward was bad but before figuring out that horses on the corners is good.

Also 8,000 HvH games seems (sadly) about right to me. So far HvB games are dominating the game room. For queries on opening theory, I am interested only in HvH games. In fact, for most areas of investigation, I am interested only in HvH games.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 10th, 2011, 5:34pm

on 03/10/11 at 17:16:55, Fritzlein wrote:
That setup was the default in the client from very early on when it seemed like a good idea...


That's interesting. If I run the same query, but limit it to look at only the human setups (includes human vs. human and human vs. bot games), it jumps to the #2 setup for both gold and silver.


Code:
11669...R H D E M D H R...11081...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
9774...H D C E M C D H... 8575...h d c e m c d h
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
8220...R H C E M C H R... 7064...r h c e m c h r
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d d r r r
5645...D H C E M C H D... 5534...d h c e m c h d
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
3207...R H D E H D M R... 1996...r h d e h d m r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
1023...C H D E M D H C... 1261...r m d e h d h r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r c c r r r
904...R H D E M D H R... 1220...r m c e h c h r
........R R C R R C R R...........r r r d d r r r
901...R H R E M R H R... 950...c h d e m d h c
........R C R D D R C R...........r r r r r r r r
882...R H C E H C M R... 868...h r c e m c r h
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d d r r r
783...R H C E M D H R... 848...r h d e m d h r
........R R R D C R R R...........r r c r r c r r
707...R M C E H C H R... 813...r h c e h c m r
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d d r r r
707...R H R E M R H R... 789...r h c e m d h r
........R D R C C R D R...........r r r d c r r r
613...H R C E M C R H... 614...d h c e c d m h
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r r r r r r
568...C D H E M H D C... 566...r h r e m r h r
........R R R R R R R R...........r d r c c r d r
528...R H C E M C H R... 535...h h e d d c m r
........R D R R R R D R...........r r c r r r r r
513...R H D E D M H R... 515...h h e d d c m c
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r r r r r r
454...D H R E M R H D... 503...r h e r d c m r
........R R R C C R R R...........r d c r r r h r
416...R H E R R C M R... 479...r h r e m r h r
........R D C R R D H R...........r c r d d r c r
410...R H D E M D H R... 477...r m r e h r h r
........R C R R R R C R...........r c r d d r c r
408...D H C E H C M D... 454...r h d e d m h r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r c c r r r


So I think that limiting queries to those in which one or both of the human participants has played more than 'n' times before would be useful too, because I expect that people who have played more than a few times will tend not to use that default setup.


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 10th, 2011, 10:53pm
Here's the one I don't understand:


Code:
613...H R C E M C R H
........R R R D D R R R


I'm trying to think when I saw a human setting up with rabbits on b2 and g2.  It hasn't appeared in any of the five years of the Postal Mixer, where I look at every opening.  Who is playing this?

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by mistre on Mar 11th, 2011, 12:08am
I am actually curious about a setup - does anyone else play with a horse in the back row lined up behind the Elephant?  I just started to use it and really like it and I was wondering if anyone else has used it.


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by 722caasi on Mar 11th, 2011, 2:11am
On a separate subject, would it be possible to update the bot basher page using this database? It seems all of the necessary data for the length of the game and how it ended are available, and I think the results might be interesting, if they were comprehensive. It could probably be done for every available bot without too much trouble. Fritz, could you find this out?
What I'd like is a list like this:

Bot | Length of shortest defeat | Opposing player | Game number#

With the first game of this length for repeated results.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by 99of9 on Mar 11th, 2011, 4:20am

on 03/10/11 at 17:34:16, ocmiente wrote:
That's interesting. If I run the same query, but limit it to look at only the human setups (includes human vs. human and human vs. bot games)

I'm always interested in openings studies, thanks.  Can you give us the list for hvh alone?

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 11th, 2011, 8:30am

on 03/11/11 at 00:08:28, mistre wrote:
I am actually curious about a setup - does anyone else play with a horse in the back row lined up behind the Elephant? I just started to use it and really like it and I was wondering if anyone else has used it.

I haven't been consistent about it, but when Gold opens unbalanced I like to start with both of horses in the center, one behind the elephant.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 11th, 2011, 12:31pm

on 03/11/11 at 04:20:14, 99of9 wrote:
I'm always interested in openings studies, thanks. Can you give us the list for hvh alone?

Yes:

Code:
1496...R H C E M C H R... 1290...r h c e m c h r
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d d r r r
1475...R H D E M D H R... 1260...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
613...H D C E M C D H... 388...h d c e m c d h
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
441...D H C E M C H D... 381...d h c e m c h d
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
207...R H R E M R H R... 162...r h c e m d h r
........R C R D D R C R...........r r r d c r r r
192...R H C E M D H R... 129...r m c e h c h r
........R R R D C R R R...........r r r d d r r r
129...R H R E M R H R... 106...r m d e h d h r
........R D R C C R D R...........r r r c c r r r
104...R H D E H D M R... 95...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r c r r r r c r
103...R H D E M D H R... 92...r h r e m r h r
........R C R R R R C R...........r d r c c r d r
95...R H C E M C H R... 88...r h r e m r h r
........R R R D R R D R...........r c r d d r c r
83...R H D E M D H R... 85...r h d e h d m r
........R R C R R C R R...........r r r c c r r r
76...C H D E M D H C... 79...r h d e d m h r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r c c r r r
76...D H R E M R H D... 77...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r c r r c r r
69...H M D E C C H D... 72...r h c e h c m r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r d d r r r
62...R H C E M C H R... 66...c h d e m d h c
........R D R R R R D R...........r r r r r r r r
60...R H D E D M H R... 60...r m r e h r h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r c r d d r c r
54...R H E R R C M R... 58...r h c e m c h r
........R D C R R D H R...........r r r d r r d r
52...R H D E M C H R... 55...d h r e m r h d
........R R R C D R R R...........r r r c c r r r
51...H D R E M R D H... 55...r m r e d c h h
........R R C R R C R R...........r c r d r r r r
49...R M C E H C H R... 54...h d r e m r d h
........R R R D D R R R...........r r c r r c r r


and here it's limited to human vs. human games, including only the setups for players after their 100th game (bot games count for determining how many times a player has played):

Code:
1219...R H D E M D H R... 1065...r h c e m c h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r d d r r r
1210...R H C E M C H R... 1059...r h d e m d h r
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r c c r r r
232...D H C E M C H D... 193...d h c e m c h d
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
191...R H R E M R H R... 138...r h c e m d h r
........R C R D D R C R...........r r r d c r r r
164...R H C E M D H R... 101...r m c e h c h r
........R R R D C R R R...........r r r d d r r r
163...H D C E M C D H... 90...r m d e h d h r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r c c r r r
113...R H R E M R H R... 87...r h r e m r h r
........R D R C C R D R...........r d r c c r d r
89...R H D E M D H R... 77...r h r e m r h r
........R C R R R R C R...........r c r d d r c r
88...R H D E H D M R... 75...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r c r r r r c r
82...R H C E M C H R... 69...r h d e d m h r
........R R R D R R D R...........r r r c c r r r
67...H M D E C C H D... 67...h d c e m c d h
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r r r r r r
61...D H R E M R H D... 67...r h d e h d m r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
57...C H D E M D H C... 64...r h c e h c m r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r d d r r r
54...R H E R R C M R... 57...r h c e m c h r
........R D C R R D H R...........r r r d r r d r
48...R H D E D M H R... 56...r m r e h r h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r c r d d r c r
38...R H D E M C H R... 53...r m r e d c h h
........R R R C D R R R...........r c r d r r r r
37...R M C E H C H R... 51...r h e r d c m r
........R R R D D R R R...........r d c r r r h r
32...R H E D D C M H... 46...r h c e d c h r
........R R C R R R R R...........r r r d m r r r
32...R H D E M D H R... 46...c h d e m d h c
........R R C R R C R R...........r r r r r r r r
31...R H C E H C M R... 45...d h r e m r h d
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r c c r r r


and finally, here is the same list including only this years WC qualifiers (Adanac, Tuks, Hippo, rabbits, Nombril, hanzack, chessandgo and Fritzlein):


Code:
313...R H C E M C H R... 296...r h c e m c h r
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d d r r r
234...R H D E M D H R... 88...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r r c c r r r
65...R H R E M R H R... 56...d h c e m c h d
........R C R D D R C R...........r r r r r r r r
41...D H C E M C H D... 47...r m r e d c h h
........R R R R R R R R...........r c r d r r r r
34...R H C E M D H R... 47...r h r e m r h r
........R R R D C R R R...........r c r d d r c r
30...R H R E M R H R... 40...r h c e m c h r
........R D R C C R D R...........r r r d r r d r
19...R H C E M C H R... 32...r h r e m r h r
........R R R D R R D R...........r d r c c r d r
16...R H D E H D M R... 29...r h d e m d h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r c r r r r c r
12...H D C E M C D H... 24...h h c e d r m r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r d r r c r
12...R H D E M D H R... 22...d h r e m r h d
........R C R R R R C R...........r r r c c r r r
11...D H R E M R H D... 21...r m r e h r h r
........R R R C C R R R...........r c r d d r c r
9...H M D E C C H D... 18...r h c e m d h r
........R R R R R R R R...........r r r d c r r r
9...H H C E D R M R... 16...r m r e h r h r
........R R R D R R C R...........r d r c d r c r
9...R H D E D M H R... 12...h h e d d r m r
........R R R C C R R R...........r r c r r r c r
8...R H C E H C M R... 10...d h c e h c m d
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r r r r r r
8...R H D E M C H R... 10...h h e d d c m r
........R R R C D R R R...........r r c r r r r r
8...R H R E M C H R... 10...h h e d c r m d
........R C R D R R D R...........r r c r r r r r
7...R M C E H C H R... 9...r m c e d c h h
........R R R D D R R R...........r r r d r r r r
7...R H C E D M H R... 8...r h c e m c h d
........R R R D C R R R...........r r r d r r r r
7...R H E R R C M R... 7...d m c e h c h d
........R D C R R D H R...........r r r r r r r r


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 11th, 2011, 1:11pm

on 03/10/11 at 22:53:56, Fritzlein wrote:
Here's the one I don't understand:


Code:
613...H R C E M C R H
........R R R D D R R R


I'm trying to think when I saw a human setting up with rabbits on b2 and g2. It hasn't appeared in any of the five years of the Postal Mixer, where I look at every opening. Who is playing this?


That's one heck of a query... My code is quickly turning into incomprehensible mush. Here are the players who have used that setup more than 10 times:

Arimanator, 267
obiwan, 75
kolobok, 56
DorianGaray, 45
BlueScreenError, 22
BilalQ, 13
hamzahq, 12
C4ul, 10

73 players have tried it, including 1 time by Fritzlein (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=10808&s=w). Maybe it was a default setup at one time?

The really scary part is that apparently I've played it 5 times, and I don't remember doing it. What was I thinking ???

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 11th, 2011, 4:26pm

on 03/11/11 at 13:11:35, ocmiente wrote:
73 players have tried it, including 1 time by Fritzlein (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=10808&s=w).

January 1, 2005.  Six years ago.  How short my memory is.  What was I thinking, indeed?  I do remember that this was a time period in which rabbit-pulling was everyone's favorite strategy.  So my hypothesis (not memory) would be that the theory was the b-rabbit and g-rabbit are less exposed to pulling than a-rabbit and h-rabbit, because a horse can sneak up the side easier than coming in close to the trap.  Or maybe there was some other reason.  Maybe Arimabuff remembers.  :)

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by lightvector on Mar 11th, 2011, 6:48pm

on 03/11/11 at 16:26:30, Fritzlein wrote:
January 1, 2005. Six years ago. How short my memory is. What was I thinking, indeed? I do remember that this was a time period in which rabbit-pulling was everyone's favorite strategy. So my hypothesis (not memory) would be that the theory was the b-rabbit and g-rabbit are less exposed to pulling than a-rabbit and h-rabbit, because a horse can sneak up the side easier than coming in close to the trap. Or maybe there was some other reason. Maybe Arimabuff remembers. :)


Except that you willingly advanced all the rabbits, in doing an E-H attack plus a swarm. Feels very modern. ;D

bot_speedy is the old version of Bomb, right? I don't particularly recall Bomb as being fond of rabbit pulling around the edges. Maybe you setup the rabbits that way because you thought that would be good for advancing them up behind the horses.


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 11th, 2011, 7:23pm
OK, now I remember, maybe. bot_speedy was bot_bomb playing at 30 seconds per move. Fotland was still actively developing, patching our formulaic ways of winning so we couldn't bash bomb by rote. Sometimes speedy would be on a par with or ahead of the best players temporarily, until we figured out a new formula.

Possibly we had discovered that speedy would take an attacking horse hostage, and then we could bury the elephant holding the horse hostage. So Fotland tweaked speedy to simply decline to take an attacking horse hostage with its elephant, and the swarm stopped working. But I had some vague idea about a "rabbit column" attack with rabbits all up the h-file that would give my camel freedom to jump in and out of the attack along the g-file. If that is what I was actually thinking, it was indeed modern. I sort of recall Fotland saying at one point words to the effect of, "so far the rabbit column is only working for you," because speedy was having good success against other players.

But all that doesn't explain why I would put rabbits on b2 and g2.


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Hippo on Mar 12th, 2011, 4:42am
So when you are in the query mode ... setup I used in all the WC games this year ... did anyone else used it before me? ... What is it's statistic?

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 12th, 2011, 11:02pm

on 03/12/11 at 04:42:14, Hippo wrote:
So when you are in the query mode ... setup I used in all the WC games this year ... did anyone else used it before me? ... What is it's statistic?

This turned out to be relatively easy to query, because compared to the setup ocmiente requested, it just swaps a rabbit with a cat in the back row, and  the elephant with a dog in the front row.  As of the end of February 2011, the setup has been used only by three people, Nombril once, C4ul sixteen times, and Hippo 148 times.  The first use was game 139095 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=139095) by Hippo on March 23, 2010.  Then it was used sixteen times by C4ul between March 26 and April 8 before Hippo used it a second time on April 10.  Nombril's lone use of the setup was game 158459 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=158459) on October 27.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Hippo on Mar 13th, 2011, 4:17am

on 03/12/11 at 23:02:56, Fritzlein wrote:
This turned out to be relatively easy to query, because compared to the setup ocmiente requested, it just swaps a rabbit with a cat in the back row, and the elephant with a dog in the front row. As of the end of February 2011, the setup has been used only by three people, Nombril once, C4ul sixteen times, and Hippo 148 times. The first use was game 139095 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=139095) by Hippo on March 23, 2010. Then it was used sixteen times by C4ul between March 26 and April 8 before Hippo used it a second time on April 10. Nombril's lone use of the setup was game 158459 (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=158459) on October 27.


Well, so callling it Hippo's setup would be absolutely OK :)

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Mar 14th, 2011, 11:45am
So, three of the upsets against the top three Arimaa players (based on WHR (http://home.scarlet.be/~woh/whr/whrh.htm))in this years tournament were games in which an unbalanced setup was used, and in two of these the underdog used the unbalanced setup as gold:
hippo vs. fritzlein (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=172760)
rabbits vs. Adanac (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=169599)
chessandgo vs. rabbits (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=168870)
This may not be statistically significant, but maybe this will lead to unbalanced setup usage increasing even more this coming year. Will have remember to run the query again during next year's tournament to see what happens.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by omar on Apr 1st, 2011, 5:38pm
Great job with finding the most common setups, Thomas. I've linked this thread on this wiki page.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Setup_Positions


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by JimmSlimm on May 3rd, 2011, 6:03pm
Hi, I tried to look for some huge .zip file that contains all the moves from games on the arimaa downloads section, the wiki, and the forum.

I did find the tool to get individual games history when entering the game number in a textbox, but I think that I would make to many URL requests in a short  if I made a program to get each game that way.

Some of you seem to have databases of game histories, how did you get them?

Thanks

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on May 3rd, 2011, 7:23pm
You can get them by going to the main page (http://arimaa.com), then click the downloads (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/download/) link on the right hand side.  From there, look for the Arimaa Games Archive (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/download/gameData/) (or just click on the hyperlinks here).


Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by JimmSlimm on May 4th, 2011, 4:59am

on 05/03/11 at 19:23:06, ocmiente wrote:
You can get them by going to the main page (http://arimaa.com), then click the downloads (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/download/) link on the right hand side. From there, look for the Arimaa Games Archive (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/download/gameData/) (or just click on the hyperlinks here).


Ah! I downloaded a few of those, but when I opened the .txt files in notepad I didnt realize that each line shows the FULL game.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by jsiehler on May 14th, 2011, 12:54pm
I wonder if one of our database guru types can tally how often a goal-winning rabbit arrives on each of the 8 files - that is, for each file, how many times it has been the destination of a goal-scoring move.  Just HvH would probably be most enlightening, but any pool would be of some interest.  

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by aaaa on May 14th, 2011, 3:06pm

on 05/14/11 at 12:54:05, jsiehler wrote:
I wonder if one of our database guru types can tally how often a goal-winning rabbit arrives on each of the 8 files - that is, for each file, how many times it has been the destination of a goal-scoring move. Just HvH would probably be most enlightening, but any pool would be of some interest.

I did some crude, imperfect "grepping" over all rated human-versus-human games and it appears that goals are increasingly more likely to happen the nearer to the edge of the board, except for the extreme edges, which are the least likely. In order words, it goes b+g>c+f>d+e>a+h.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by jsiehler on May 14th, 2011, 5:24pm
Ah, that was speedy.  Thanks!  Mostly just curiosity motivating the question, I admit, but I wasn't too certain about what the answer would be.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by ocmiente on Nov 22nd, 2011, 2:35pm

on 03/10/11 at 22:53:56, Fritzlein wrote:
Here's the one I don't understand:


Code:
613...H R C E M C R H
........R R R D D R R R


I'm trying to think when I saw a human setting up with rabbits on b2 and g2. It hasn't appeared in any of the five years of the Postal Mixer, where I look at every opening. Who is playing this?


I think I have an explanation for this.  It's a good setup for bait and tackle (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Bot_Slaying#Bait_and_Tackle)

Here is an example game:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=64708&s=w

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Dolus on Nov 22nd, 2011, 3:23pm

on 11/22/11 at 14:35:27, ocmiente wrote:
I think I have an explanation for this. It's a good setup for bait and tackle (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Bot_Slaying#Bait_and_Tackle)

Here is an example game:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=64708&s=w

I might have to start using that setup...

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by mattj256 on May 4th, 2013, 8:57pm
Are there any statistics on what percentage of games are won with each game code?  (e.g. rabbit reaching goal, immobilization, etc.?)

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Hippo on May 5th, 2013, 2:51am

on 05/04/13 at 20:57:29, mattj256 wrote:
Are there any statistics on what percentage of games are won with each game code? (e.g. rabbit reaching goal, immobilization, etc.?)


These statistics change frome game to game ... just make an appropriate select to obtain the current statistic.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by browni3141 on May 5th, 2013, 5:04am

on 05/04/13 at 20:57:29, mattj256 wrote:
Are there any statistics on what percentage of games are won with each game code? (e.g. rabbit reaching goal, immobilization, etc.?)

This is what I got. Accuracy is not guaranteed ;)
Goal: 60.6809%
Timeout: 15.9446%
Resignation: 13.6777%
Elimination: 5.97011%
Immobilization: 2.1394%
Illegal move: 1.13233%
Three fold repetition: .317144%
Abandoned: .0843952%
Forfeit: .0355747%
Score: .00908289%
No rabbits left: .00870444%

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by mattj256 on May 5th, 2013, 5:16pm
Thanks browni3141!!
1. I assume this is 2002 until roughly the present?
2. Just to clarify: "elimination" means the player won because he/she captured all the enemy rabbits.  "no rabbits left" means "No rabbits left for either player; draw (before 2008.07.01)"
3. I wonder how many of "timeout" losses were due to internet connection issues and how many were from the player legitimately running down their clock.  (AFAIK the public data feed doesn't provide timestamps for each move so there would be no way to figure it out.)

http://i.imgur.com/Ezgg8wh.png

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by browni3141 on May 5th, 2013, 5:25pm

on 05/05/13 at 17:16:04, mattj256 wrote:
Thanks browni3141!!
1. I assume this is 2002 until roughly the present?
2. Just to clarify: "elimination" means the player won because he/she captured all the enemy rabbits. "no rabbits left" means "No rabbits left for either player; draw (before 2008.07.01)"
3. I wonder how many of "timeout" losses were due to internet connection issues and how many were from the player legitimately running down their clock. (AFAIK the public data feed doesn't provide timestamps for each move so there would be no way to figure it out.)

http://i.imgur.com/Ezgg8wh.png

Yes to 1. and 2.
3. The time moves came in are recorded for some of the games, I think, but there are many causes of time-outs and I don't see how there is enough information to find out what the cause was.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by rbarreira on May 7th, 2013, 4:09am
I am surprised Elimination is so high. I thought it would be around 1-2%.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Manuel on May 7th, 2013, 6:06am

on 05/07/13 at 04:09:31, rbarreira wrote:
I am surprised Elimination is so high. I thought it would be around 1-2%.


I bet half of it is against ArimaascoreP1...

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by Fritzlein on May 7th, 2013, 9:58am

on 05/07/13 at 06:06:07, Manuel wrote:
I bet half of it is against ArimaascoreP1...

I can only remember one elimination ever from a human game.  I have a hunch that most elimination wins could have been by goal, but the the human player wanted to keep playing, and the bot didn't complain.  In a human vs. human game it would be rude to keep on playing to win by tortuous means if you already have a clear way to win.

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by browni3141 on May 7th, 2013, 6:17pm
Unrestricted results:
Goal: 60.6809%
Timeout: 15.9446%
Resignation: 13.6777%
Elimination: 5.97011%
Immobilization: 2.1394%
Illegal move: 1.13233%
Three fold repetition: .317144%
Abandoned: .0843952%
Forfeit: .0355747%
Score: .00908289%
No rabbits left: .00870444%


Statistics where neither nor both players were one of the

"ArimaaScore" bots:
Goal: 60.7611%
Timeout: 16.2874%
Resignation: 14.6564%
Elimination: 4.60503%
Immobilization: 2.1348%
Illegal move: 1.06075%
Three fold repetition: .348318%
Abandoned:.0922751%
Forfeit: .0390714%
Score: .00997568%
No rabbits left: .00498784%


Statistics excluding H v. B games:

Goal: 70.5162%
Timeout: 15.7098%
Resignation: 7.31345%
Illegal move: 2.47738%
Three fold repetition: 1.39074%
Elimination: 1.1163%
Immobilization: .923453%
Forfeit: .322652%
Abandoned:.166889%
Score: .0333778%
No rabbits left: .0296692%
Again, accuracy not guaranteed :)

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by mattj256 on May 8th, 2013, 2:14am
Hmm a lot of the total resignations are in H vs. B. I guess there aren't too many in B vs B games. :)

Ok I have a challenge for you, if you're up for it. There are eight ways to capture. Can I have some frequency statistics? :)

Category 1: A piece steps onto an unprotected trap and is captured.
  • Friendly piece voluntarily steps onto trap (suicide)
  • Enemy piece pushed onto trap
  • Enemy piece pulled onto trap
  • Friendly piece sacrifices itself to pull (suicide-pull)
  • Friendly piece sacrifices itself to push (suicide-push)
Category 2: A piece is on a trap when its only ally moves away.
  • Ally steps away voluntarily (friendly abandonment)
  • Ally pushed away
  • Ally pulled away

Title: Re: Arimaa games shared database
Post by phairland on Jan 7th, 2015, 12:03am

on 03/10/11 at 17:16:55, Fritzlein wrote:
In fact, for most areas of investigation, I am interested only in HvH games.


I made some queries on the full database (2002-2014) and is clearly shown that games of HvB are no really interesting for analysis or investigation (I very rounded the percentages):

51% Games Won by Human
99% Human Resigns (HvH = 20%)
99% Human Lost on Time (HvH = 30%)
99% Human Won by Elimination (HvH 0.5%)
90% Human Won my iMmobilization (HvH 1.5%)







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