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Topic: Postal Tournament (Read 6765 times) |
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #15 on: Dec 31st, 2004, 9:44pm » |
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Omar, I'm glad that you are changing it so that everyone has half gold and half silver. Also I approve of the maximum reserve being 14 days. I don't entirely like the 14 day starting reserve, though, and would suggest 7 days instead, although it's not a big difference and I don't care a great deal. My feeling is just that if anyone signs up for the tournament and quits before the first move, I think a week is long enough to wait for them. To get a two-week break later, you have to earn it by punctuality between now and then.
Mr. Brain, I had also worried about someone deciding to act as a conduit between two other players, in order to be assured of at least one of the two points. My conclusion was that as a player I don't mind so much, because I get an interesting game no matter who I am really playing. As a tournament director, I would be more concerned, but maybe because of the time controls it wouldn't work well for the in between player. It would always take the intermediary longer to make a move than the player who actually thought of it, so gradually the imitating player would deplete his reserve and run out of time, unless both of the other two players were consistently moving in less than a day with a full reserve. (This is incidentally another minor reason not to start folks off with a full reserve. If I notice that my moves are being relayed, I can slow down the pace of my moves until the copier runs out of reserve and has to be original.)
I'm psyched for the tournament to begin!
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| « Last Edit: Dec 31st, 2004, 9:45pm by Fritzlein » |
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omar
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Arimaa player #2
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #16 on: Jan 4th, 2005, 9:56pm » |
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I was looking at the recent games and noticed some of the 15 second per move games against bot_Speedy that reached the game time limit and were determined by score. I think the scroing function did justice in those games and gave the game to the player who I would also consider to be winning.
I plan to add the following to the time control definition
for the G parameter:
* If the number ends with 'k' then the time per move is linearly decreased with each move until it get down to 30 sec per move by the move number given by G. For example, if G=60i and M=90s then after each move the M parameter is reduced by one second. After M gets down to 30 it does not decrease any further.
* If the number ends with 'b' then the first player to use up this much total time in all the moves loses.
* If the number ends with 'x' then after the game time limit is reached the player who has used less total time in all the moves wins.
So the current definition of determining the outcome by score will also be there.
Regarding the move imitating problem. I will be sure to mention in the tournament rules that this is prohibited.
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omar
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #17 on: Jan 5th, 2005, 6:12pm » |
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I've updated the postal tournament pages. Please have a look.
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/postal/2005/
I changed the distribution of the shared prize a little
from what we discussed. Also increased the reg fee a
little since everyone will get at least some of it back.
Omar
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| « Last Edit: Jan 5th, 2005, 6:15pm by omar » |
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #18 on: Jan 5th, 2005, 9:22pm » |
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The only thing I don't like about it is that I have to wait until January 23 to start. 
A few small points:
* A strict reading of the rules would say that losing by immobilization is worth -50 points, since it is losing "any other way", but I imagine you want it to be +25 points, just like losing by goal.
* I hope that nobody will make bad moves intentionally instead of resigning. It is possible that , since we aren't reward extending the game in any way, someone who wanted to resign would pull an enemy rabbit to the goal. The way the rewards are set up might tempt someone to behave in this manner, because there is no per-move reward, but at some point you just have to rely on people to be sportsmanlike.
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99of9
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Gnobby's creator (player #314)
 
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #19 on: Jan 6th, 2005, 5:30am » |
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The following will seem quite negativve - apologies. I like the tournament as a whole, but I think there are a few things that should be cleared up before we begin.
* Losing by repetition should be explicitly mentioned too - is this a bad way or good way to lose?
* I thought we had a great way to incentivize playing hard in the prediction contests. Points for long games if you lose, points for short games if you win. Why did you decide not to use that system Omar?
* I'm afraid that Gnobot will not be able to enter this comp, because I will be moving country during the tournament and will not have fixed hardware to run it on.
* I think the webcam clause is a bit silly in a postal tournament. Unless Omar enjoys watching Big Brother . If somebody really wants to cheat in a correspondence tourney, they'll be able to no matter what rules you put in place. The webcam rule is particularly ineffectual though, because any cheating I do could be in a different room or at a different time.
* I think the "ring" system of deciding opponents is unfair. It gives massive advantage to the top seed compared to the number 6 seed. Say there are 100 entrants (obviously there won't be... but just for the example, say there are):
Top seed plays #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #100, #99, #98, #97, #96
6th seed plays #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11
I haven't thought about it for long, but I'd say that even deciding opponents randomly would be better than this.
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omar
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #20 on: Jan 6th, 2005, 6:36pm » |
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I've updated the 'Prize Distribution Rules'. I think it now reflects the original intention much better.
I didn't notice the web-cam rule when I cut and pasted the paragraph from another page. I've taken that silly line out. Thanks for mentioning it.
Toby, your calclulations about who plays who in the ring are different from mine. Here is what I get:
First order the players by ratings (assume player 1 is highest rated and 100 is lowest rated). Then order the players like this:
1 3 5 7 ...... 97 99 100 98 ...... 8 6 4 2
Now form the ring with player 1 next to player 2. This means that player 1 plays: 2, 3, 4 ... 10, 11. And 100 plays 90 ... 99. Player 6 would play: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.
If you want I can run GnoBot on my server for you. It might not do as well since its only a P4 1.7G machine with lots of other processes running. But at least it will get to play.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2005, 6:41pm by omar » |
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99of9
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #21 on: Jan 6th, 2005, 7:23pm » |
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Oh OK - I didn't understand how your ring was operating. Your method seems ok then.
Are you really happy to have 10 extra processes running on your computer?? I'll have a think about it - it might not be worth it anyway.
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Adanac
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Arimaa player #892
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #22 on: Jan 7th, 2005, 8:34am » |
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I really like all of the recent changes and clarifications to the tournament setup, especially since I now know that I can take my vacation time without worrying about forfeiting any games and I won't need to buy a webcam!
Now I just need to learn how to play this game well in the next few weeks.
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MrBrain
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #23 on: Jan 7th, 2005, 11:40am » |
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I would recommend putting a new link for the postal tournament in the main game room. Also, when is the deadline for sending the $20 entry fee?
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omar
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #24 on: Jan 7th, 2005, 4:21pm » |
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Toby. If I run GnoBot I was thinking of only letting it think for about 1 hour per game and one game at a time.
The registration dead line is Jan 23rd.
Omar
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #25 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 8:27pm » |
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I sent in my $20. Do you think we might actually get more than ten players? What a boost for Arimaa that would be! I was expecting maybe five or six players. Omar, I think it would encourage more people to sign up if you post to this thread (and keep updating by edit) a list of everyone who has already paid up. Or you could automate it and have it be somewhere on the tournament page. Some people who are wavering might jump on the bandwagon if they see that everyone else is doing it too.
Adanac, you're getting good too fast already. No need to pick up the pace. In fact, playing against you will be no bargain for anyone else's rating. The effect of these games on our ratings will be based on the ratings we have at the start of the games, yet I'm sure by the end you will be several hundred points stronger, so those of us with established ratings will earn less than we deserve for beating you and lose more than we should for losing to you.  Oh, well, the tournament will be a blast, and to heck with the ratings. I'm going to deflate my rating sometime between now and tournament begin anyway by playing bot_lightning in rated mode.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2005, 9:16pm by Fritzlein » |
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99of9
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Gnobby's creator (player #314)
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #26 on: Jan 13th, 2005, 11:14am » |
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Omar, I see you've made a "postal games" link from the gameroom. Now that you've done that I suggest you cut them out of the "current games" list, because that is what's going to get clogged up once the Postal Tourney starts.
I don't think Gnobot should play. It doesn't get many extra ply even when playing for ages, and it's not very good in the first place, so I don't think it'll contribute anything useful.
I on the other hand have definitely signed up, it should be great fun. I think the games will produce some spectacular theory.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2005, 11:15am by 99of9 » |
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99of9
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #27 on: Jan 13th, 2005, 11:18am » |
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on Jan 8th, 2005, 8:27pm, Fritzlein wrote:| those of us with established ratings will earn less than we deserve for beating you and lose more than we should for losing to you. |
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You think you have an established rating eh Fritz?? I haven't seen much sign that it has ceased it's eternal skyrocket.
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #28 on: Jan 18th, 2005, 2:45am » |
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on Jan 8th, 2005, 8:27pm, Fritzlein wrote:| The effect of these games on our ratings will be based on the ratings we have at the start of the games... |
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I take it back. Apparently even though the ratings from the start of the game are listed next to the game while it is being played, the ratings adjustments are based on what the ratings happen to be at the end of the game. Is that correct, Omar?
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99of9
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Gnobby's creator (player #314)
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Re: Postal Tournament
« Reply #29 on: Jan 22nd, 2005, 4:43am » |
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13 players!!!
That's great. It's a pity that it won't be an all-play-all round robin, but that would've just been too many games. I'm sure that whatever it is, it'll be fun, and it's great that so many are involved.
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