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Topic: 2007 World Championship Format (Read 5292 times) |
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omar
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #60 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 9:07am » |
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I've decided to stay with the FDE format for this years WC tournament. The reasons are that I would like the tournament to finish in about 2 months; I don't want to over burden the winner with the number of games that need to be played to win the tournament; and FDE is not that much worse than FTE.
The rules for the turnament are now available at:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/wc/2007/
I plan to announce the registration in the gameroom on Oct 1st, but players can begin registering now.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #61 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 9:42am » |
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Whee! I have already registered! I can't wait for the games to begin...
I have a few minor concerns about the rules. First, the pairing algorithm doesn't actually do this:
8. Give the bye to the player with the fewest losses.
9. Pair players with a similar number of losses against each other.
10. Pair players with a similar number of wins against each other.
11. Give the bye to the player with the highest rating.
12. Maximize the sum of the squares of the rating differences.
Instead it does this:
8. Give the bye to the player with the fewest losses.
9. Give the bye to the player with the highest rating.
10. Pair players with a similar number of losses against each other.
11. Maximize the sum of the squares of the differences in rank among remaining players.
It doesn't matter much, because the important thing is avoiding repeat matchups, but the rules might as well reflect what the pairing algorithm actually does.
Second, I notice the time control is listed as 90s/90s/100/7m/6h. I quite prefer the experimental time controls we have been testing in the game room for some time now. Instead of putting a low limit on the reserve, it is nice to have a higher limit, in case there is a patch with several tricky moves in a row. A higher limit allows more control to the players over time managment. On the other hand, to keep the games moving for the spectators, we had a per-move time limit of five minutes. This seems to me to capture the best of both worlds, i.e. giving control to the players but also respecting the spectators by keeping the games moving. What do you think of changing the time contol to 90s/9m/90/0/6h/5m, as has been experimentally listed in the gameroom for a while?
Third, I notice that there is no prize for second/third place, but I still think there should be a clear method for determining those places so those people can be listed in the hall of fame and receive eternal glory. My suggestion is that eliminated players are ranked by number of wins, not by order of elimination. Either people with the same number of wins end tied, or there is an elimination playoff to settle second/third. (By the way, I think Arimaa is almost mature enough to eliminate the prize money entirely, and have the whole tournament be for glory only. The computer championship, on the other hand, still needs some incentive, because developers are disheartened by how easily we crush their puny bots...)
I guess the next task is finalizing the rules for the prediction contest. Maybe I should start a new thread about that...
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| « Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2006, 12:13pm by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #62 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 4:33pm » |
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Oh, I just realized the rules say the tournament will be seeded by "rating" with no further clarification. Are you actually going to use the server ratings to seed the World Championship? If so, it is open season for botbashing. Let the ratings inflation begin!
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robinson
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #63 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 6:03pm » |
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i prefer, as fritzl too, our new time controls with the bigger reserve. i think cause of arimaa is getting more and more complex with action on every traps or tricky tactics there are moments in the game were you have to think deeper for some moves in a row to hold the level.
second: is it true that the last games are 90 sec too and not 2m as last year. i liked the 2min games even if one of the last games vs adanac costed me much sleep  (till 4.30 in the morning i guess )
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omar
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #64 on: Sep 29th, 2006, 12:45am » |
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Thanks for the feedback Karl. I've modified the WC rules page to more accurately reflect what the pairing algorithm does.
I was contemplating using a max time per move type time control for the WC, but wasn't sure if the players would be comfortable with using that yet. But looking at the recent HH game history it seems that the top players are perfering to use this type of a time control. So I think we are ready to try this time control for the WC. I don't want to use this for any of the bot games until next year so that the bot developers have sufficient time to adapt their bots to it.
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99of9
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #65 on: Sep 29th, 2006, 6:51am » |
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I guess I'd better try out these experimental time controls a bit more! I was perfectly happy with the old ones, so I haven't made a conscious switch. One thing I don't like about the new ones is that (in the current interface) you can't see your total reserve when it is your turn. So you can't tell if you should use up this whole turn's time or not.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #66 on: Sep 29th, 2006, 9:17am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2006, 6:03pm, robinson wrote:| second: is it true that the last games are 90 sec too and not 2m as last year. i liked the 2min games even if one of the last games vs adanac costed me much sleep (till 4.30 in the morning i guess ) |
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I didn't realize that you like the 2 minutes per move in the final games, even though it made them long. What do other people think? Right now the vote is one to one between you and me. 
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| « Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2006, 9:17am by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #67 on: Sep 29th, 2006, 9:27am » |
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on Sep 29th, 2006, 12:45am, omar wrote:| But looking at the recent HH game history it seems that the top players are perfering to use this type of a time control. So I think we are ready to try this time control for the WC. |
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Yes, PMertens is the only one I know who prefers it the old way. It seems everyone else who has tried both prefers the experimental new time control. There isn't much of a difference, but it seems that the difference is all in favor of the new one. Indeed, if it seems to be a success for the World Championship, I would be happy for the experimental controls to become the new standard, so I don't have to scroll down so far when I'm inviting someone to a game.
Quote:| I don't want to use this for any of the bot games until next year so that the bot developers have sufficient time to adapt their bots to it. |
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Good point. We needn't inflict it on the bots without fair warning, especially since time management doesn't affect bots as much as it does humans.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #68 on: Sep 29th, 2006, 9:37am » |
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on Sep 29th, 2006, 6:51am, 99of9 wrote:| One thing I don't like about the new ones is that (in the current interface) you can't see your total reserve when it is your turn. So you can't tell if you should use up this whole turn's time or not. |
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Not being able to see the full reserve bothered me too at first, but it turns out not to have much real impact. My experience in real games is that the best use of a large reserve isn't to blow it on one move anyway, but to expend a minute or two extra for several moves in a row when the position is complex. As far as I can tell, the only situation that justifies using the entire five minutes for one move anyway is when you haven't yet found a move that will stop a forced loss. Otherwise, you shouldn't use five minutes on a move regardless of whether that's your whole reserve or you have another ten tucked away. If it isn't a forced loss, you will very probably want to spread your extra time out a bit anyway.
That said, of course I would love it if Omar displayed the full reserve too somehow, but if he's too busy to do it before the games begin, it's not a big deal. If you are husbanding your resources properly, you have time to be aware between moves how your reserve is declining. It just seems rare in practice to be blindsided by an all-or-nothing situation where you would suddenly prefer to use five minutes rather than three, but aren't aware if you can afford it.
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PMertens
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #69 on: Sep 29th, 2006, 11:01am » |
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I just dislike the gnobby trick: let the opponent fall asleep ... and that would happen if I need to wait 5 minutes during the middle of the night ...
My blunder-ratio goes up as soon as the opponent plays slower
Arimaa did not become more complicated than last year ... just some of us learned a few more tricks (and should be able to play even better than before with same speed)
But then I do not really mind and whatever the majority likes is fine with me - I will not try to force my will upon others 
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99of9
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #70 on: Sep 29th, 2006, 11:37pm » |
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on Sep 29th, 2006, 9:37am, Fritzlein wrote:
the only situation that justifies using the entire five minutes for one move anyway is when you haven't yet found a move that will stop a forced loss. Otherwise, you shouldn't use five minutes on a move regardless of whether that's your whole reserve or you have another ten tucked away. |
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In my opinion there are at least two other situations:
1) Your internet connection dies or your computer crashes, and you need to reboot or reset your modem.
2) You need to make a crucial game-bifurcating decision, and are perfectly capable of playing quickly after that decision is made. E.g. whether to seize an opportunity to chase an enemy camel into your territory when you would have to abandon a framed horse.
[EDIT: 3) Due to bad electromagnetic reception, you need to go to the toilet 5 times during the same move .]
Quote:| Yes, PMertens is the only one I know who prefers it the old way. It seems everyone else who has tried both prefers the experimental new time control. |
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You can add my name to this list. I have tried the experimental methodology, both in the postals, and in at least one game where someone invited me. But I admit I don't have a great deal of experience with them.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2006, 11:40pm by 99of9 » |
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omar
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #71 on: Sep 30th, 2006, 9:06am » |
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on Sep 29th, 2006, 6:51am, 99of9 wrote:| I guess I'd better try out these experimental time controls a bit more! I was perfectly happy with the old ones, so I haven't made a conscious switch. One thing I don't like about the new ones is that (in the current interface) you can't see your total reserve when it is your turn. So you can't tell if you should use up this whole turn's time or not. |
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This is a good point against not using the max-time-per-move time controls yet. I do need to change the client to allow showing the total reserve time left during a players turn. Also since it hasn't even been a full year of exposure to the MTPM time control, maybe we should just stick with the regular time controls for this year, but plan on using the MTPM time control next year; for humans and bots. Hopefully this should give players enough of a lead time to start using MTPM.
I've changed the rules page back to use the 90s/90s/100/7m/6h time control.
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omar
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #72 on: Sep 30th, 2006, 9:13am » |
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Here's the result of running another 2000 trials with the new FDE format.
run3 'formats/floatDoubleElimRepair' 2000 16 500 50 9999
1 32.9%
2 24.1%
3 17.2%
4 10.8%
5 6.9%
6 3.1%
7 2.4%
8 1.2%
9 0.6%
10 0.5%
11 0.1%
12 0.1%
13 0.1%
15 0.1%
Still not too bad.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #73 on: Sep 30th, 2006, 10:12am » |
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on Sep 29th, 2006, 11:37pm, 99of9 wrote:In my opinion there are at least two other situations:
1) Your internet connection dies or your computer crashes, and you need to reboot or reset your modem. |
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Yeah, crashes are a big issue I forgot since it hasn't happened to me in a while. I hope that nobody loses a game for this reason during the World Championship. No matter what the time control is, if your reserve gets low, you can lose due to techincal issues, which is an unpleasant way for a game to end. 
Quote:| 2) You need to make a crucial game-bifurcating decision, and are perfectly capable of playing quickly after that decision is made. E.g. whether to seize an opportunity to chase an enemy camel into your territory when you would have to abandon a framed horse. |
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OK, I can recognize the possibility of a single game-bifurcating decision after which you can play quickly, but then what's the problem in not knowing your full reserve? You use the max time for that one important move no matter what your reserve is, because you can move quickly thereafter, so it doesn't matter if your reserve gets low.
What you need to argue is that you are in a situation where you weren't worried before (so you aren't aware of your reserve) and suddenly happen to know you need exactly two long thinks (so need to know how to distribute your reserve between them) but you know you won't need several long thinks (or else you would dip into your reserve sparingly anyway).
Quote:| But I admit I don't have a great deal of experience with them. |
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I'll be interested to know your opinion when you have played more with the new time controls. Having a reserve that can grow beyond the max time per move is quite nice, in my opinion, and if you could see what the reserve was, there would be no disadvantage to it. However, I understand Omar's decision to be conservative for the World Championship. The old time control has the virtue of being tested. I'm not protesting his decision so much as urging you to try out the new time control some more to get to know its benefits.
PMertens, by the way, doesn't like accumulation of reserve for an entirely different reason: He just gets impatient...
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jdb
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Re: 2007 World Championship Format
« Reply #74 on: Sep 30th, 2006, 3:28pm » |
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The difference between the original and the experimental time controls is the limiting of the reserve time. Under the original time control, when a player's reserve is full (or close to full), there is no incentive to play quickly. A player might as well use the 90 sec to study the position. Under the new time control, there is always incentive to play as quickly as possible, to accumulate reserve for future use.
As for the total time it takes to play the game, it makes very little difference which time control is used. In either method, each move gives a player an additional 90 seconds added to their clock. The only difference is there is more flexibility in the experimental time control on when the player decides to use it.
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